Who killed Senju Hashirama?

[Rikudou King]

Do you believe that Madara died by Hashirama's hands or he lived to see another day and if so, did the rivalry continue or was Tobi telling the truth.

Clearly Madara didn't die, but he was the only one fueling the rivalry. Otherwise the Uchiha clan wouldn't have remained loyal to Konoha for 50+ years. We have Kagami, Obito, and Itachi as direct examples of Uchihas freely working with Senjus. Heck, even Sasuke's a good example. He didn't turn his anger to Konoha until Madara began to manipulate him. The only person pushing the rivalry between the clans was Madara.

It was not in Konoha best interest to allow Sasuke to live in peace knowing what his clansman did and if Sarutobi was like his sensei, we know why Tobirama allow the Uchihas to go on living, to maintain peace. I disagree with you that Tobirama placing the Uchihas in charge to ensure another Madara uprising, well that backfired. If the Uchihas had nothing to do with planning Kyuubi attack, why were they so noticeable absence?

It was in Konoha's best interest when killing him would have made Itachi their enemy. That's not even a good example, seeing as they only allowed Sasuke to survive because he didn't know what the rest of the clan had been plotting. One young child who doesn't know the truth is far different then an entire clan plotting against the village. And Tobirama's actions didn't fail. Another Madara didn't rise up, it was the original who orchestrated the entire thing and renewed the fiction between the clans. Before Madara came back, things were working out completely peacefully.

You're using the fact that Itachi and Sasuke's parents weren't home as evidence that they had something to do with the Kyuubi attack and that's faulty logic. Just because we didn't see the entire Uchiha clan doesn't mean they were apart of the plot. By that logic, any ninja we didn't see such as the Danzo, Asuma, Hyuuga clan, and the other named Konoha characters must have been apart of the plot too, since they were "noticeably absent" too. Not to mention it wouldn't even make sense. If they were in on the attack, why wouldn't they aid and attack with Madara, instead of leaving everything up to him? The fact remains that we have been told by multiple characters and even shown that Madara was the only one involved in releasing the Kyuubi.

I think Tobirama created Edo Tenssi because he can't control Uchihas like his brother ... after all Uchihas haven't any special seal to deal with ET ; that mean Tobirama never trusted to Uchihas ...

They wouldn't have needed a special seal to deal with Edo Tensei as we have seen. Still, I honestly doubt Tobirama didn't trust the Uchiha clan. Otherwise, why would he have an Uchiha as an guard? And if he planned for Edo Tensei to control them, wouldn't he have passed it down to Sarutobi once he was made Hokage so that he too could control them?

[shafagh]

They wouldn't have needed a special seal to deal with Edo Tensei as we have seen. Still, I honestly doubt Tobirama didn't trust the Uchiha clan. Otherwise, why would he have an Uchiha as an guard? And if he planned for Edo Tensei to control them, wouldn't he have passed it down to Sarutobi once he was made Hokage so that he too could control them?

no , he suddenly chose Sarutobi as Hokage in middle of battlefield , so he has no time for taught that Jutsu to him .
and he can chose Danzo too .
maybe he would thinking ET was very dangerous to teaching that to another ninja except who become Hokage .

Perhaps he created that Jutsu against Uchihas before their alliance and that why Uchihas don't like him ...
Uchihas losses their strongest ninjas ( Madara and his brother ) and senju become stronger ( Mito become QB's jin ) ; so Uchihas only choices was accepting Tobirama as Hokage or began a battle that would destroyed Uchiha , Senju and Konoha ....
( for sure if Uchiha began a battle other villages come to help them because they want both of Uchiha and Konoha become weak

but even in this manga , history wrote by winner side ... and senjus was winner

[Rikudou King]

Kabuto taught it to Madara within a couple of minutes. If Orochimaru and Kabuto can learn it a decade after his death, then someone like Sarutobi shouldn't have had any problem. At the very least, he could have written it down in a scroll. And I seriously doubt that Tobirama choose Sarutobi on the drop of a hat. Surely he would have given it some though of a successor beforehand. Regardless, seeing as we were told that one way to counter Edo Tensei was to take control of the user via genjutsu, it's wouldn't have exactly been considered unbeatable by the Uchihas. They had already accepted the Senju as their leader before Madara left and Mito gained the Kyuubi, so them accepting the Senju as Hokage had nothing to do with them being weak verse the Senju.

Since it was Madara who told us this history, it's not exactly the winner who was writing it for us.

[lordHokage]

so you say uchiha clan was behind of QB's attack !?
and you can explain why they don't attacked to Kohoha in that night !?
I don't think they feared than Sarutobi and Minato ...
and you can explain why Tobi helped Itachi to massacred Uchiha clan !?

in this manga we never see anything from uchiha clan ( Sasuke is only 1 person ) but I don't know why many reader hate them ( maybe because they hate Sasuke ) ...
Edo tenssi was created by senjo/konoha's leader , and now , all of ninja world suffer by this cowardly Jutsu .
I wonder why Tsunade and all of ninjas in alliance army ( especially Konoha ninjas ) talked about uchiha hatred and why they never say anything about Hokage's Jutsu !?
why they don't talk about Pain and how Nagato become Pain !?
why they don't talk about Orochimaru !?
why they don't talk about Danzo !?
and why they don't talk about the fact that Tobi , Sasuke and Kabuto were leaf's ninjas !?

(sorry ; I forget that Naruto is a Konoha ninja and he want become next Hokage ...)

and if all ninja world ( even all of Konoha ninjas ) separated Uchiha clan form Konoha , why Uchihas must keep their loyalty to konoha and fight for them against QB !?

Tobi said that the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox's appearance 16 years ago. Only our eye techniques are capable of controlling the Nine-tails. So the Leaf's Upper Echelon suspected that an Uchiha was behind the attack. The actuality, it was just a freak occurrence, a natural disaster. The Uchiha were completely blameless. But the seeds of doubt had been sown. They believed the Uchiha had set their sights on controlling the village. But Kushina's flashback debunks Tobi's lies and why Tobi helped Itachi to massacre his so-called clan, maybe to get close to Sasuke. As for the Uchiha keeping their loyalty to Konoha, they co-founded their beloved Konoha, and like the Uzumakis, the Uchihas were hated for their skills too.

Clearly Madara didn't die, but he was the only one fueling the rivalry. Otherwise the Uchiha clan wouldn't have remained loyal to Konoha for 50+ years. We have Kagami, Obito, and Itachi as direct examples of Uchihas freely working with Senjus. Heck, even Sasuke's a good example. He didn't turn his anger to Konoha until Madara began to manipulate him. The only person pushing the rivalry between the clans was Madara.

It was in Konoha's best interest when killing him would have made Itachi their enemy. That's not even a good example, seeing as they only allowed Sasuke to survive because he didn't know what the rest of the clan had been plotting. One young child who doesn't know the truth is far different then an entire clan plotting against the village. And Tobirama's actions didn't fail. Another Madara didn't rise up, it was the original who orchestrated the entire thing and renewed the fiction between the clans. Before Madara came back, things were working out completely peacefully.

You're using the fact that Itachi and Sasuke's parents weren't home as evidence that they had something to do with the Kyuubi attack and that's faulty logic. Just because we didn't see the entire Uchiha clan doesn't mean they were apart of the plot. By that logic, any ninja we didn't see such as the Danzo, Asuma, Hyuuga clan, and the other named Konoha characters must have been apart of the plot too, since they were "noticeably absent" too. Not to mention it wouldn't even make sense. If they were in on the attack, why wouldn't they aid and attack with Madara, instead of leaving everything up to him? The fact remains that we have been told by multiple characters and even shown that Madara was the only one involved in releasing the Kyuubi.

I respectfully disagree with you. The man in the mask is a pathological lying and he's the only person who benefit from conflicts, and whenever Tsunade or Kyuubi confirm his so-called Uchihas Senjus rivalry tales, like Naruto, I too don't believe him. If the Uchihas had nothing to do with Hashirama’s death, then it was one of the Kages from the other the five great shinobi countries.

[Rikudou King]

Well one lie doesn't make someone a pathological liar. A pathological liar would lie about everything, but the only lie that we know of is the info about the Kyuubi. He told the truth about Itachi's role and has acknowledged several times about losing against Hashirama.

If it was one of the other Kages, that likely would have been mentioned by now. The most obvious answer is either a natural death or he died from the wounds he received from the fight with Madara.

[lordHokage]

Well one lie doesn't make someone a pathological liar. A pathological liar would lie about everything, but the only lie that we know of is the info about the Kyuubi. He told the truth about Itachi's role and has acknowledged several times about losing against Hashirama.

If it was one of the other Kages, that likely would have been mentioned by now. The most obvious answer is either a natural death or he died from the wounds he received from the fight with Madara.

Kabuto knows the truth about Tobi's secret identity and he's not talking, Zetsu will not betray his friend secrets and it only a matter of time before Kyuubi starts talking about who was Uchiha Madara to Naruto. I could see how Tobi will make up stuff and cannot be disproved because those who know the truth about Hashirama and Madara's death are not alive to reveal that information.

[shafagh]

Since it was Madara who told us this history, it's not exactly the winner who was writing it for us.

in my eyes true loseres were Uchiha Clan not Maddara ... ( and also I don't think Tobi is Madara ; maybe Tobi is third person who we don't know anything about him ... )

All of the history was said by Itachi , Tobi , Konoha's leaders , and they was behind of Uchiha massacre ... in the end uchihas was nothing more than bunch of losser who get wiped out by their traitor and enemies and now their murders talked about them ; even now all of people - in manga - talked about Uchiha hatred and act like anything was Uchihas failure ...

(IMO interesting point of this manga is that most of main villains - Itachi , Tobi , Danzo , Oro , Tobirama - was behind of Uchiha clan massacre and now Uchihas become most hated people in manga ... hahaha )

about Hashirama :
1- Uzumaki Mito has special medical Jutsu and Hashirama has strong body ; so he cant died in age 40 -50 by natural death ....

2- Tobi know that Mito has ability to sense hatred and evilly will so maybe he tried to close her or Hashirama in past ...

..........

Why Hashirama built that statue in Vally Of End for Madara !?

[Rikudou King]

Kabuto knows the truth about Tobi's secret identity and he's not talking, Zetsu will not betray his friend secrets and it only a matter of time before Kyuubi starts talking about who was Uchiha Madara to Naruto. I could see how Tobi will make up stuff and cannot be disproved because those who know the truth about Hashirama and Madara's death are not alive to reveal that information.

Kabuto knowing the truth about Madara's identity doesn't mean that Madara isn't Madara. Zetsu hasn't imply otherwise and it's been hinted with the Kyuubi that this is Madara judging from the way it reacted to his chakra. What exactly could Madara have made up about his confrontation with Hashirama? He's admitted that he lost, we've know that everyone presumed that he was dead, and we've seen that he really did take Hashirama's cells for his own use. By all accounts everything stacks up as true.

in my eyes true loseres were Uchiha Clan not Maddara ... ( and also I don't think Tobi is Madara ; maybe Tobi is third person who we don't know anything about him ... )

All of the history was said by Itachi , Tobi , Konoha's leaders , and they was behind of Uchiha massacre ... in the end uchihas was nothing more than bunch of losser who get wiped out by their traitor and enemies and now their murders talked about them ; even now all of people - in manga - talked about Uchiha hatred and act like anything was Uchihas failure ...

(IMO interesting point of this manga is that most of main villains - Itachi , Tobi , Danzo , Oro , Tobirama - in this manga was behind of Uchiha clan massacre and now Uchihas become most hated people in manga ... hahaha )

about Hashirama :
1- Uzumaki Mito has special medical Jutsu and Hashirama has strong body ; so he cant died in age 40 -50 by natural death ....

2- Tobi know that Mito has ability to sense hatred and evilly will so maybe he tried to close her or Hashirama in past ...

..........

Why Hashirama built that statue in Vally Of End for Madara !?

Madara was the loser in the sense that he admittedly lost to Hashirama and Minato. Anyway, I believe that Madara's the only person who has spoken of the Uchiha's hatred. Itachi hid the truth and Danzo didn't expand on anything more then the fact that Itachi was really working for him. Madara's basically the one who keeps rallying things up because of his own failure.

As for Hashirama, I don't remember Mito being mentioned with any special medical technique, so she couldn't have saved him and even a strong body wouldn't prevent death in the long run. Mito presumably didn't gain her sensory ability until after she had taken in the Kyuubi, after Madara had made his attempt on Hashirama and was presumed dead. Though seeing as Madara didn't make a reappearance in Konoha until long after Mito had dead, it's very possible that she had the ability beforehand and that's how Madara knew about it. Maybe that explains how Hashirama and Mito knew Madara was coming ahead of time with the Kyuubi.

[lordHokage]

Kabuto knowing the truth about Madara's identity doesn't mean that Madara isn't Madara. Zetsu hasn't imply otherwise and it's been hinted with the Kyuubi that this is Madara judging from the way it reacted to his chakra. What exactly could Madara have made up about his confrontation with Hashirama? He's admitted that he lost, we've know that everyone presumed that he was dead, and we've seen that he really did take Hashirama's cells for his own use. By all accounts everything stacks up as true.

I think Tobi should hire Rikudou King Public Relation Firm, it doesn't matter what people say about him, because nobody understand him and can explain away his bull crap better than you. As for Hashirama's cells, Tobi got it the same way Orochimaru got his.

[shafagh]

As for Hashirama, I don't remember Mito being mentioned with any special medical technique, so she couldn't have saved him and even a strong body wouldn't prevent death in the long run. Mito presumably didn't gain her sensory ability until after she had taken in the Kyuubi, after Madara had made his attempt on Hashirama and was presumed dead. Though seeing as Madara didn't make a reappearance in Konoha until long after Mito had dead, it's very possible that she had the ability beforehand and that's how Madara knew about it. Maybe that explains how Hashirama and Mito knew Madara was coming ahead of time with the Kyuubi.

She has one special seal ( that seal was on her forehead ) ... so I guess she must has some special medical Jutsu ... ( and she must passed down them to Tsunade )

maybe you are right ; but we still can't explain why Hashirama died in young age ( 40- 50 ) (( I'm sure Hashirama with that body can live for many years ... like Onoki or Tobi ... ))

maybe Konoha's ninjas never say something about Hashirama's wounds because that was secret ; after all he was Hokage and all thing about his health was secret ...

[Rikudou King]

As for Hashirama's cells, Tobi got it the same way Orochimaru got his.

Madara and Orochimaru got their cells in different ways. Orochimaru took them from bones and had to graft them to a living person to develop them. Madara meanwhile took them from the living Hashirama and had enough that he was able to create an actual clone of Hashirama along with presumably creating the new being Zetsu.

She has one special seal ( that seal was on her forehead ) ... so I guess she must has some special medical Jutsu ... ( and she must passed down them to Tsunade )

maybe you are right ; but we still can't explain why Hashirama died in young age ( 40- 50 ) (( I'm sure Hashirama with that body can live for many years ... like Onoki or Tobi ... ))

maybe Konoha's ninjas never say something about Hashirama's wounds because that was secret ; after all he was Hokage and all thing about his health was secret ...

We have no idea what that mark on her head is, but it can't be the same healing seal that Tsunade has because Tsunade created that technique herself.

Considering we don't know how old Hashirama was, saying he died at a young age is questionable. Madara only lived so long because of unnatural means and Onoki doesn't seem older then Sarutobi and co were. I would think they would eventually have to say something, in order to explain his death. Sarutobi and Minato's reasons for death weren't hidden.

[lordHokage]

She has one special seal ( that seal was on her forehead ) ... so I guess she must has some special medical Jutsu ... ( and she must passed down them to Tsunade )

maybe Konoha's ninjas never say something about Hashirama's wounds because that was secret ; after all he was Hokage and all thing about his health was secret ...

The Uzumaki forehead seals maybe another one of their many traits passed down from female to female. Konoha's ninjas never said anything to Naruto about his parents and those who were close to him took that secret to their grave. Naruto learned the hard way who was his parents and Kishimoto confirmed it through a casual conversation between two old friends.

Madara and Orochimaru got their cells in different ways. Orochimaru took them from bones and had to graft them to a living person to develop them. Madara meanwhile took them from the living Hashirama and had enough that he was able to create an actual clone of Hashirama along with presumably creating the new being Zetsu.

With Naruto's newfound powers, he can create an actual clone of Hashirama and a new being Zetsu or any other being without Hashirama's cells. And even though Tobi created a new being Zetsu from Hashirama's cells and Bijuu chakra, he still needed Foureyesmaru assistance.

[Rikudou King]

With Naruto's newfound powers, he can create an actual clone of Hashirama and a new being Zetsu or any other being without Hashirama's cells. And even though Tobi created a new being Zetsu from Hashirama's cells and Bijuu chakra, he still needed Foureyesmaru assistance.

Not at all. Naruto's powers only affect the Mokuton already created. He can't make more of it or manipulate it in any way. And Madara created Zetsu and all his clones long before Kabuto showed up. He didn't need Kabuto to do anything, he simply allowed it because there was no reason not to.

[lordHokage]

Not at all. Naruto's powers only affect the Mokuton already created. He can't make more of it or manipulate it in any way. And Madara created Zetsu and all his clones long before Kabuto showed up. He didn't need Kabuto to do anything, he simply allowed it because there was no reason not to.

I stand by my this:

I think Tobi should hire Rikudou King Public Relation Firm, it doesn't matter what people say about him, because nobody understand him and can explain away his bull crap better than you.

And with that being said, when Kishimoto reveal information on the cause of Hashirama's death, I will see you later. Until then, you take care.

[ashher]

Could be that tobi killed hashirama, indirectly. May be poisoned him. Or could be that hashirama never really recovered from the injury he got from the battle with madara.