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Thread: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Quantized's Avatar
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    Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    I see a lot of people who keep saying "Naruto can just release his Kage Bunshin whenever he needs to" i.e. in the current arc where he spreads out all his clones on the battle field, some are saying he can simple "release" the technique whenever he wants...

    I don't agree, why do you say that?

    I.e. in the pain arc, Naruto had to summon his clones to be able to release the technique, but the clones are still connected over a large distance (seen a few times, like when 9 tails got control of Naruto, it disturbed and made his other clones vanish on their own, that is one good example that they're always connected through little chakra).

    So why would he bother summon them back to close distance in the Pain battle? If all he had to do was to release it, even over a long distance? Since it seems apparent, clones are always connected through little chakra, so why not release over long distance if that is the case?

    It seems there are only 4 ways to get a clones chakra back..

    - It dies from an enemy, knock outed or w/e else.
    - Chakra runs out, the clone only last until there is no more.
    - The clone it self releases it's own chakra.
    - The original body looses focus, i.e. 9 tails berserk or knock outed.

    I haven't seen or noticed anywhere in the manga, where the owner (original body) can release it's clones chakra.

    Nevertheless, it raises the question, if you can loose your clones through loosing focus, since there always are chakra connections to your clones, why can't the original not release the clones?

    I have yet to see someone in the manga release their own clone, it just seems they can't.

    As far as I see it, it's the biggest drawback for the technique. Everything comes at a cost, if you fly high you got a long way to fall.

    Letting your chakra out on a whole battlefield being so strong that it's likely no one will beat most of your clones? How will he get it back before he runs into big opponents?
    Like Pain and Nagato combined right now?


    What do you think?
    Have you seen anywhere in the manga where the original body releases the technique?
    Do please share if you have
    Last edited by Quantized; July 21, 2011 at 08:22 AM.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member scandalous''s Avatar
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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    I've never really thought about it, but I always assumed that naruto could release his clones if he wished too. Naruto and kakashi demonstrated that they can end the technique by their own choosing.

    This page pretty much blows away your theorie:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-320-6/...apter-315.html

    From what I gather chakra has to travel the distance to reach the original, or another person. Naruto and nagato pretty much displayed this:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-446-13...apter-441.html
    The farther away nagato was from his realms, the less effective the jutsu was.

    So going by all that I assume that the case with naruto needing to summon his clone during the pain battle is that the further the clones are from you, the longer it takes for the chakra to reach you. Note that he was in the middle of taijutsu battle with god realm, he needed the power as quickly as possible.
    Seeing as the toad mountain is pretty far away from konoha, going by the fact it takes you a month to get there, they summoned the clone to konoha so that it's chakra would reach naruto instantly.
    Last edited by scandalous'; July 21, 2011 at 09:31 AM.

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by scandalous' View Post
    I've never really thought about it, but I always assumed that naruto could release his clones if he wished too. Naruto and kakashi demonstrated that they can end the technique by their own choosing.

    This page pretty much blows away your theorie:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-320-6/...apter-315.html

    From what I gather chakra has to travel the distance to reach the original, or another person. Naruto and nagato pretty much displayed this:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-446-13...apter-441.html
    The farther away nagato was from his realms, the less effective the jutsu was.

    So going by all that I assume that the case with naruto needing to summon his clone during the pain battle is that the further the clones are from you, the longer it takes for the chakra to reach you. Note that he was in the middle of taijutsu battle with god realm, he needed the power as quickly as possible.
    Seeing as the toad mountain is pretty far away from konoha, going by the fact it takes you a month to get there, they summoned the clone to konoha so that it's chakra would reach naruto instantly.
    Fair enough..
    Although the first page isn't proving the theory wrong, it was the clones that released them selfs, not the original

    I didn't say that the distance mattered much, all I meant by it, is that the clone had to be close, to be "told" to release the chakra. It could work just as good through a wireless communication device that ninjas also have.

    I believe chakra is fairly fast, like radio waves are.. remember how Pain used chakra like a radio tower in the pain arc and fought on a pretty high level with people like Kakashi, it had to be fast assuming Pain was on a mountain.

    The delay and disadvantage of having to stop up and use the scroll is much slower, than any signal would have to travel, assuming it's just close to radio signals in terms of speed no matter where on the planet the clones would be hidden.

    My take on it

    ---------- Post added at 04:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

    Just rephrasing my words a bit;
    All assuming that Kakashi really is insanely fast, (think few would doubt that), and if Pain's signal was delayed just a little, it would be over for him, since he wouldn't be able to react.
    That means chakra is really, really fast, near instant at close distance, thus, there would be no point for Naruto to use a scroll to summon, if all he had to do was release and perhaps wait a few seconds (assuming the mountain is on the other side of the planet).

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member scandalous''s Avatar
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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez View Post
    Fair enough..
    Although the first page isn't proving the theory wrong, it was the clones that released them selfs, not the original

    I didn't say that the distance mattered much, all I meant by it, is that the clone had to be close, to be "told" to release the chakra. It could work just as good through a wireless communication device that ninjas also have.

    I believe chakra is fairly fast, like radio waves are.. remember how Pain used chakra like a radio tower in the pain arc and fought on a pretty high level with people like Kakashi, it had to be fast assuming Pain was on a mountain.

    The delay and disadvantage of having to stop up and use the scroll is much slower, than any signal would have to travel, assuming it's just close to radio signals in terms of speed no matter where on the planet the clones would be hidden.

    My take on it
    The clones are exact copies of the original, whatever they can do, so can the original. If the clone can release itself, then the orignal can too.

    I'm pretty much convinced that naruto can release his own clones, as they are still a jutsu. Pa toad screaming to (the original naruto) to release his jutsu is pretty evident of this. The exact nature of the speed chakra travels with is unknown, and I doubt that kishi will ever explain. However like you said, nagato needing to be close to his realms shows that his chakra tranfers has a distance limit. There could be the possibility that the original loses the ability to release the technique after it's traveled a certain distance. This could explain why naruto needed his clone to be close.

    The exact nature of the whole thing is to vague to actually discuss as it's not actually a huge deal imo. The naruto clone situation is probably a one time thing anyway. Seeing the 5 minute limit isn't really a big issue as he can jump in to sage mode almost instantly like recently shown. So I assume the chakra gathering clones are something of the past.
    Last edited by scandalous'; July 21, 2011 at 09:58 AM.

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by scandalous' View Post
    The clones are exact copies of the original, whatever they can do, so can the original. If the clone can release itself, then the orignal can too.

    I'm pretty much convinced that naruto can release his own clones, as they are still a jutsu. Pa toad screaming to (the original naruto) to release his jutsu is pretty evident of this. The exact nature of the speed chakra travels with is unknown, and I doubt that kishi will ever explain. However like you said, nagato needing to be close to his realms shows that his chakra tranfers has a distance limit. There could be the possibility that the original loses the ability to release the technique after it's traveled a certain distance. This could explain why naruto needed his clone to be close.

    The exact nature of the whole thing is to vague to actually discuss as it's not actually a huge deal imo. The naruto clone situation is probably a one time thing anyway. Seeing the 5 minute limit isn't really a big issue as he can jump in to sage mode almost instantly like recently shown. So I assume the chakra gathering clones are something of the past.
    The discussion is turning into distance issue, I agree, that is a bit pointless to discuss

    But what I mean is, this can predict whether Naruto will be in trouble in the current arc.
    Can he release all his clones at will, or not?

    Sure enough, all clones can do whatever the original can. But it does not mean that he Naruto has control of his clone while it is out there. It is a copy of Naruto from the moment he created it, not afterwards.
    So, if he decides he needs to call his clone back, then he can't control the "clones" chakra.

    So issue boils down to, can Naruto stop the little chakra there is between him and his clones and thus cancel it or is it impossible? We have never seen it.

    Btw, never meant that Pain had to be close, on the contrary, the chakra is really really fast.... he fought with Kakashi afterall, and the chakra had to be insanely fast to be able to have no downtime against Kakashi. Who is pretty fast himself.

    What I refer to, is manga fact, is it shown anywhere in the manga, where a Bunshin actually was released by the original?

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    The Kage Bushin jutsu itself is rather flawed IMO.

    For starters, when one clone is made, it has exactly half of the orginal's chakra. So if you have 100 chakra points, that means you only have 50 after creating a Kage Bushin.

    If you make 99 clones, then you and each of your clones has 1 chakra point.

    Naruto has been known to make THOUSANDS of clones. Even for him, someone who has that much chakra, I've always found it weird that the rules of the jutsu seem not to apply to him since even after creating that many clones he's still able to either create more clones or perfrom A and S rank techniques like it's nothing.

    Now personally, I think Naruto may have found out how to only put a cetain amount of chakra in each clone, thus his clones have less chakra than he does. To me, this is the only reasonable explanation as to why he never dies, unless when his clones "die" all of the chakra is returned to them, although that seems too convient becaue that would be the only jutsu that performs that way.

    Nonetheless, Naruto is certainly in trouble doing what he is doing now, unless, again, he can control how much chakra the Kyuubi is taking from him by controlling how much chakra each of his clones have.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Of course he can release them! Remember his fight with Pain? How did he get back into Sage mode after time was running out? Right! He released one of his clones back in Sage Mountain....

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Naruto can release the clones, however, the problem is that the clones don't all share his thoughts or senses. He can't gain their knowledge until the jutsu is cancelled.

    Meaning it can be risky to just release the technique when his clones are out of sight (they might be doing something important).

    Regarding the natural energy his clones were gathering to use Senjutsu, I assume it has to do with the nature of natural energy (extremely difficult to gather) and the distance between the two.

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Son-Derling View Post
    Of course he can release them! Remember his fight with Pain? How did he get back into Sage mode after time was running out? Right! He released one of his clones back in Sage Mountain....
    That is a very big assumption imho, how do you see which was releasing it? It could have been the clone that was releasing for all we know.

    @Delbi
    Gotta agree with ya, it's pretty damn flawed

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    The clones were gathering chakra for themselves. Naruto had to summon them to release them so that the other clone wouldn't turn into a frog. Remember, even amongst the clones they all feel what the rest feels (such as when one of the clones goes Kyuubi, the others do to (when Naruto was training to learn nature manipulation from Kakashi)). Meaning that, since the summoned clones was closer to the actual Naruto, then he got the natural energy gathered rather than the other clone.

    During that match, Naruto said that he can only use three clones in battle because two were gathering natural energy. If that were the case, the clone left behind in the frog mountain should've made another clone. That way, Naruto would always have two clones gathering natural energy and thus have a limitless way of absorbing natural energy. Oh well.

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez
    So why would he bother summon them back to close distance in the Pain battle? If all he had to do was to release it, even over a long distance? Since it seems apparent, clones are always connected through little chakra, so why not release over long distance if that is the case?
    The answer for this one is simpler: because the clones were gathering the natural energy, releasing them on such a distance would be a waste - nothing would come from that. It seems Naruto was supposed to be near the clone who was gathering natural energy to 'take' that natural energy when the clone would be released. In other words: IF they would release on Myoboku mountain, natural energy wouldn't 'come' to Naruto because of distance. At least that my take on this <unless I mistaken what you meant, then I'm sorry >

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez
    Have you seen anywhere in the manga where the original body releases the technique?
    On short distance Kakashi did that after the battle with Zabuza & Haku, in the first arc, to make other guys run away methinks xd
    ..:: I LoVe I's ::.. [Naruto] Share your thoughts on: Boobies

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Maybe I'm wrong but the way I've seen it is.... if Naruto summons multiple clones, then if he releases the technique, he releases all of them at once (unable to be selective about it) but if the clone releases the technique, only the said clone is released. It would've been bad if Naruto released the technique on both his clones gathering natural energy because 2x sage energy returning to him would've turned him into a toad or statue. But once the clone is reverse-summoned, the clone could release himself and return just that clone's natural energy to Naruto while leaving the other clone to gather energy.

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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong but the way I've seen it is.... if Naruto summons multiple clones, then if he releases the technique, he releases all of them at once (unable to be selective about it) but if the clone releases the technique, only the said clone is released. It would've been bad if Naruto released the technique on both his clones gathering natural energy because 2x sage energy returning to him would've turned him into a toad or statue. But once the clone is reverse-summoned, the clone could release himself and return just that clone's natural energy to Naruto while leaving the other clone to gather energy.
    Naruto was able to release all the clones but 2 against Pain when they braced against ST.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    On that topic, anyone else think Naruto's the type of guy who would cry after sex?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I fount it interesting that had Kushina not gotten knocked up, None of them would be in the current situation. She's more responsible for the Uchiha massacre then Danzo and co. Crap, Now Sasuke has a valid reason to use his hatred against Naruto.
    LMFAO

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by hakuthehedgehog View Post
    Naruto was able to release all the clones but 2 against Pain when they braced against ST.
    It'd help if you could give a chapter/page reference since Naruto vs Pain lasted a few chapters long . But if you mean chapter 442 page 16 - 17 (I'm not sure if that's the scene you're referring to) It's possible the other clones either released themselves or were done in by absorbing damage from the Shinra Tensei. I think its been shown before often that clones disappear after helping Naruto form Rasengan so I'm assuming they don't have to make a hand sign to release themselves. I guess I just don't remember seeing Naruto himself releasing clones during his run in with Pein. Again, I'm assuming a lot but the assumption I'm going by is that Naruto would have to make a hand sign when he releases all the clones as the original.

    EDIT: Looking closer at the last panel on page 16 in chapter 442, it looks like all but those 2 clones are out of steam and probably got released through damage as opposed to being released manually by themselves or by Naruto.
    Last edited by Anduren; July 24, 2011 at 07:05 PM.

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