The Kenichi vs. Miu dilemma

[Deadbear]

This is a question that has long plagued me (and it seems Kenichi-kun too): when will Kenichi catch up to Miu-san?

It seems like an important but oft over looked element of HSDK. Kenichi-kun is so dedicated to protecting her yet his abilities as a martial artist are very inferior to hers. On the other hand, Miu-san herself has stated that she wants Kenichi-kun to protect her (go back to the finals of D of D arc and you'll see) but also fully realizes that she could kick his ass any day of the week.

If I had to rank Miu-san, I would rank her as one of the strongest disciple/experts in the series. It's already been stated that Kenichi-kun has just recently entered into the expert class of fighters. Experts seem to need less training from masters and more personal refinement by themselves which is something that it seems like Miu-san has done since the beginning.

What do y'all think it'll take for him to catch up to her? More fights, more training, Elder passing on his 108 secret techniques?
Or do y'all think that they are already more or less on par with each other, and its just that Kenichi-kun can't demonstrate his abilities unless he's protecting/saving someone?

I don't agree that he will actually surpass her. In fact I hope that they eventually become equal. They are a pair and suited (*cough* fated) for eachother as well as being groomed as the next masters of Ryozanpaku. All the other masters of Ryozanpaku acknowledge an equality between them; it feels appropriate that the next generation should be, too.

As a reader this is just something I'd like to see to develop Kenichi's character, but also to get Miu to acknowledge him as a man (tho he's still a boy), as well as to advance the story and the Kenichi-Miu relationship (and I'm an adamant shipper by the way).

[kkck]

Well, the first thing to consider is that kenichi is rarely capable of actually fighting all out when he wants to. I would think he has several psycological barriers which stop him from that. As evidence for that I would consider the bit where he defeated skira's disciples. The second he wanted to protect miu he took on both of them out even when miu herself was feeling the pressure from her enemy. As far as actual physical capacities go I would actually place kenichi above miu. His sheer capacity for punishment vastly outclasses any disciple/expert class fighters IMO and his lower body strength already has been stated to be capable of one shooting a disciple class fighter (which should include miu). If kenichi could remove the psycological barriers which stop him from going all out and uses ryusui seikuken then I would think he is perfectly capable of going against miu. Of course, miu will invariably have more experience than kenichi and overall the better battle instincts.

[Franckie]

Characters are only as strong as the plot demands. Kenichi, on several occassions, has equaled, if not surpassed, Miu but the author immediately retcons Kenichi's/Miu's power-level in order to account for the latest plot developments. The most recent example is where Kenichi is once again referred to as a Disciple-class fighter for the upteenth time despite the author previously stating that Kenichi is (was) an Expert-class fighter.

[crimsonlink310]

^ That might have been a mistaken translation or God Fist thinks they are Disciple class fighters. Kenichi can never go full out on a girl so really the Kenichi vs Miu will never have Kenichi win in a real match. I can see Kenichi beating Miu in their spar by chapter 475 or 480.

[Deadbear]

Characters are only as strong as the plot demands. Kenichi, on several occassions, has equaled, if not surpassed, Miu but the author immediately retcons Kenichi's/Miu's power-level in order to account for the latest plot developments. The most recent example is where Kenichi is once again referred to as a Disciple-class fighter for the upteenth time despite the author previously stating that Kenichi is (was) an Expert-class fighter.

Wrong. He is referred to as a disciple (which he is) not a disciple-class fighter (which he isn't). Please don't confuse the two.
As I've said before, his level as a martial artist is Expert-class but he is still a disciple of several masters in order to advance, just like all the members of Yomi and even several members of the Shinpaku Alliance.

[Franckie]

^ That might have been a mistaken translation or God Fist thinks they are Disciple class fighters. Kenichi can never go full out on a girl so really the Kenichi vs Miu will never have Kenichi win in a real match. I can see Kenichi beating Miu in their spar by chapter 475 or 480.

Akira saw a glimpse of Kenichi's "true power" when Kenichi proceeded to one-shot both of his Disciples. In one panel. Yet he still registers Kenichi's level of strength as that of a Disciple-class fighter.

Wrong. He is referred to as a disciple (which he is) not a disciple-class fighter (which he isn't). Please don't confuse the two.
As I've said before, his level as a martial artist is Expert-class but he is still a disciple of several masters in order to advance, just like all the members of Yomi and even several members of the Shinpaku Alliance.

Aagard: Such a move from a Disciple-class fighter is truly surprising
Akira: Don't bring Disciple-class fighters on the battlefield

Care to explain why 2 Supermasters who are equal to Kenichi's masters register Kenichi as a Disciple-class fighter?

[Deadbear]

Care to explain why 2 Supermasters who are equal to Kenichi's masters register Kenichi as a Disciple-class fighter?

Because neither of them are Kenichi's masters and are thus un-informed about his true abilities. From your own example, Agaard registers surprise at what Kenichi can do so he incorrectly labels him as disciple class. And Akira didn't really call him a disciple class. He called him a disciple. In a way he may have been taking a pot-shot at Sakaki's honor by bringing Kenichi to a Master battle.
Find me an instance in which one of the masters of Ryozanpaku calling Kenichi disciple-class and I'd be more willing to agree with you.
In any event, Matsuenya also said that Kenichi is just beginning to enter into the ranks of the expert-class and we have till yet seen a strong example of an expert-class martial artist (other than Tanaka who is an expert becoming a master-class so you really can't use him). So until Kenichi and others progress further the experts as a class are harder to define.

And is there any chance we can get back on topic? Disciple or expert doesn't really matter here except as how it relates to the Miu vs Kenichi match up.

[Bludvein]

Probably for no real reason. Notice how he includes Miu in that, and she is definitely in the expert class. Personally I think something is being lost in translation. No master has ever referred to a student as anything but a disciple. Perhaps masters don't really make a distinction?

[kkck]

As far as the disciple class thing goes I think we have to consider there is also an age element to it. Basically there is a double meaning to the whole thing, it does incorporate the overall skill level but it also has an age consideration. By disciple class some people could have easily been talking about how kenichi and miu are too young to be in the battlefield.

Also, did kenichi actually defeat the expert class fighter? From what I recall even miu made it perfectly clear she would not stand a chance against him. Also, the guy went for the kill when he fought kenichi and the masters had to stop him. Kenichi's victory was that he stopped his punch when he saw the guy was stopped however the manga did not actually say kenichi was in any way stronger than this guy.

[Bludvein]

Of course it didn't. They may both be "experts." but Tanaka is the cream of the crop. He is at the top of that category.

Kenichi just now became an expert not too long ago. He still has at least a couple of years of training to go to get to Tanaka's level. That is taking into account his absurd rate of growth as well. It's supposed to take like 6-8 years on average.(Thats a guess, but I think a pretty accurate one).

[obkung]

it's easy. They are expert class but still disciples of masters.

[Franckie]

I'm very curious where people think "disciple-class" and "disciple" can be used interchangeably. The two terms have completely two different definitions when used in the manga; not even the author has used the two terms interchangeably when describing a character's display of strength.

Because neither of them are Kenichi's masters and are thus un-informed about his true abilities. From your own example, Agaard registers surprise at what Kenichi can do so he incorrectly labels him as disciple class. And Akira didn't really call him a disciple class. He called him a disciple. In a way he may have been taking a pot-shot at Sakaki's honor by bringing Kenichi to a Master battle.

You'd have a point if we were talking about someone who was master-class garbage, but that isn't the case here. You're point about Aagard is completely off. Aagard had already seen Kenichi one-shot a fighter with Korui Nuki prior to Kenichi using it on Koukin and had watched Kenichi intensely during his fight (e.g. He comments on Kenichi strictly using Muay Thai). Aagard is also noted to be a very competent teacher. Aagard would have a very, very good idea of what Kenichi was capable of. Him stating Kenichi's display of power to be disciple-class would have a strong basis. His assessment would only be off if Kenichi was still holding back a considerable amount of power during the fight, and the author has made no hint whatsoever that was the case. (Kenichi's reluctance to use his full strength at the start of fights is one of the key reasons Koukin defeated him in Round 1.)

Akira is a nearly identical case. He saw a glimpse of Kenichi's true strength when his desire to protect Miu brought out his full strength to such an extent that Kenichi greatly miscalculated for both opponents. He even states later to both of his students who have been described as being "disciple-class" in strength only lost because of the difference in experience (e.g. this indicates that differences in stats such as power are miniscule factoring in other factors such as Kenichi noting the strength behind their attacks).

Find me an instance in which one of the masters of Ryozanpaku calling Kenichi disciple-class and I'd be more willing to agree with you.

I just gave you two examples of fighters who know what they're speaking about and you immediately dismissed their assessments as irrelevent. Let me ask you a question - Where is the evidence supporting your suggestion? Why is it that 70 chapters after their assessment that we're seeing statements (and feats!) that contradict said assessment? Not even Sakaki disagreed with Akira when he lectured him about bringing Disiciple-class fighters onto the battlefield.

In any event, Matsuenya also said that Kenichi is just beginning to enter into the ranks of the expert-class and we have till yet seen a strong example of an expert-class martial artist (other than Tanaka who is an expert becoming a master-class so you really can't use him). So until Kenichi and others progress further the experts as a class are harder to define.

Kenichi is either Expert-class or he is Disciple-class. Not both at the same time, and the evidence that he is above Disciple-class at this point is still lacking. He still has trouble with Disciple-class fighters, got pwned by a fodder swordsman who was only described as being a level above Kenichi in strength, and we have 2 Supermasters stating him to still be Disciple-class. The level of strength he has displayed so far is still comparable to other fighters such as Shou.

And is there any chance we can get back on topic? Disciple or expert doesn't really matter here except as how it relates to the Miu vs Kenichi match up.

This is probably going to turn into a "We'll just agree to disagree" at this rate.

[Deadbear]

@Franckie:
That's not what we're saying. The issue is that a "disciple" is defined as someone who is training under a master who can be at varying levels of strength. But the "disciple-class" is a ranking defined by being less than the "expert-class". The "disciple-class" I think is something like a martial artist rookie class. They are two separate definitions that sometimes overlap.

Its like this "all in the disciple-class are disciples but not all disciples are in the disciple-class".

Put in another (more extreme) way even all of the Supermasters are someone's disciples because at some point in their past they must have trained under a master. That person would still be their master even if they are long gone or are far below them in strength.

Kenichi cannot be in the "disciple class" because he has gained at this point too much experience and skill to be anything but in the "expert-class". He is no longer a "rookie".

---------- Post added July 24, 2011 at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was July 16, 2011 at 07:25 PM ----------

@Franckie:
again you are completely MISSING my point. Not once, NOT ONCE, did I ever say that he was both disciple-class and expert-class at the same time. I said he was an both an expert and a disciple of masters. HIS RANK AS A MARTIAL ARTIST NEVER ENTERS INTO IT. He is an expert because of his level of experience and skill and simply because his masters said he was so.

And he is a disciple because he has masters in the first place.

"Agaard says this" or "Akira says this" doesn't matter. Yes, I will conceded that they are supermasters and as such have phenomenal insight when it comes to the progression of a fighter's training. However, even those two masters as much as admitted they misjudged Kenichi.

First Agaard: he was amazed at the korui nuki that Kenichi used. Yeah maybe he saw it in the past but against a weapons user and Agaard doesn't put much stock with the weapons division. But seeing it live and almost completely decimating his own pupil is another matter. Then there was his amazement at seeing Kenichi using Apachai's signature moves: the Ap-punch and the Chai-kick. Conclusion: Akira misjudged Kenichi.
Second Akira: He trained Kano Shou's bodygaurds personally. He trained them to the point that he did not think they would loose to Kenichi. But the still got their asses hand to them. Which is why he had to go back and retrain them afterwards. Conclusion: Akira is misjudging Kenichi.
You simply cannot base your assumption of Kenichi's level as a fighter on what someone other than his own masters say.

"Sakaki didn't immediately correct Akira's mistake so that means he must also think that Kenichi is a part of the disciple-class?" That's your proof?
Or more "proof": sword fighters that are master level beating him up or other weapons division members fighting him when he should still be unconscious in the hospital? All of that is pretty shaky evidence.


When it comes right down to it it was the Elder than proclaimed Kenichi an expert. The Elder. The Legendary Invincible Superman Hayato Furinji. The single most powerful being on the planet. The man who possesses skill and power that even the Supermasters have admitted that they could learn from, and at times even show fear of. The man who's judgement even Koetsuji and Ma defer to. That is the master who proclaimed Kenichi an expert. That is my proof. Agaard and Akira call him a disciple-class? Are you kidding me? Who the fsck cares?
And none, NONE, of the other masters of Ryozanpaku have ever once disagreed with him.

[En Yang Ji]

I'm of the opinion Kenichi is an advanced disciple class fighter. I believe Kenichi is in the upper limit of the disciple class, but still below the expert class. I drawed my conclusions from the statements below:



Akiisame: "In your circumstance, just think of yourself as having become a bit of an advanced disciple."

Miu: "Yes, and also during D of D, even though he did abstain from joining until a certain point, he showed some unbelievable power by defeating the entire enemy team with one finger! Compared to us disciple classes."

[Gourab]

I'm of the opinion Kenichi is an advanced disciple class fighter. I believe Kenichi is in the upper limit of the disciple class, but still below the expert class. I drawed my conclusions from the statements below:



Akiisame: "In your circumstance, just think of yourself as having become a bit of an advanced disciple."

Miu: "Yes, and also during D of D, even though he did abstain from joining until a certain point, he showed some unbelievable power by defeating the entire enemy team with one finger! Compared to us disciple classes."

I m not quite sure of Miu's comment. I think its abt. someone else.