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Thread: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

  1. #61
    The Green Knight MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Gats's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    There are already threads about Suigetsu/Neji or Neji/Kimmimaro in the tournament, just discuss about it there. I moved (most of) the posts in their respective thread (and deleted those which talk about the three threads at the same time).
    Last edited by Gats; July 08, 2011 at 05:56 AM.

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  3. #62
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Infernal Stigma's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by zerocooldx View Post
    Aburame tinted stunna' shades bro. J-man put on a pair of those bad boys and Tsukuyomi get reflected back!
    Quote Originally Posted by zerocooldx View Post
    Why not just throw a bucket of water at the approaching Amaterasu flame? I'm sure as "good" of an agument, or dare i say if not even better, could be made for that then the whole Jiraiya going into his hairstyles mode.
    You're calling jdw a troll yet after reading your posts, wouldn't this be trolling?

    I think we're all one sided about this debate. How will Itachi beat Jiraiya's genjutsu? Itachi and Jiraya don't even need to be in the same room for Itachi to get caught in it.
    If Jiraiya was caught in a genjutsu wouldn't ma and pa release him? Jiraiya is fast he kicked that pain before he could make a seal and strong is sage mode and if Sasuke was able to stall Amaterasu from hitting him how can Jiraiya not be fast enough to stall it for some time? Also Jiraya doing that quick needle jutsu is imo PURE evidence that he can shed his hair at will and regrow them at will. Jiraiya's hair is as strong as metal according to databook and the fact that it shredded Pain's summoning. So if Amaraterasu were to catch it it wouldn't all burn instantly, I'd say it would take a few seconds. ALSO Jiraiya can seal Amaterasu! So if the hair is burning too fast he can grow out his hair while using his scroll to seal it. If itachi attacks Ma and Pa will use that sonic attack they did on the summoning to push itachi back or Ma could use her tongue that is insanely fast btw to entertain Itachi. The way I see it it could easily go both ways.

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  5. #63
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Nicholas.Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Stigma View Post
    You're calling jdw a troll yet after reading your posts, wouldn't this be trolling?

    I think we're all one sided about this debate. The way I see it it could easily go both ways.
    QFT. But, I will not allow anyone to say Itachi is no match for Jiraiya.

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  7. #64
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    It seems like it's a bit of a trend nowadays, but please stop calling each other trolls alright?

    Thanks a lot!

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  9. #65
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Infernal Stigma's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas.Sama View Post
    QFT. But, I will not allow anyone to say Itachi is no match for Jiraiya.
    Yeah Itachi is definitely in my eyes Jiraiya's equal. Itachi is very confident in his abilities, I mean he didn't even consider orochimaru as a threat, but he still decided that fighting Jiraiya was not the smartest thing at that moment. When Itachi fled from Jiraiya and what he said about Jiraiya to me was that Jiraiya is someone that would require him to go all out and even that does not 100% guarantee him absolute success. By success I mean secretly taking Naruto without much info about akatsuki leaking. A fight that big is unecessary and has many risks. Itachi doesn't guess or wing it whenever he does something, he makes sure that he has thought everything through and tied every loose ends so that he is sure that nothing will go wrong. Jiraiya was someone he didn't plan for, at least I don't think he did. When I say plan for I mean mentally, e.g
    Itachi realizing this may be a fight where his body will wear out and the disease will damage him further completely reducing his longevity, Or realizing that he may not come out alive cuz Jiraiya is very strong and might kill him or he wins but the disease kills him instead or sharingan goes totally blind and konoha nins kill him.
    His mission was to sneak in and sneak out with Naruto and since Jiraiya was there, it was not worth the trouble. I dunno who'll win, kishi will have to write this one.

  10. #66
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    I'd like to thank who has added the winners of the most recent matchs. I've also noticed the new layout of the low tier's bracket.I hope he will do the same for the top tier.

  11. #67
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Stigma View Post
    Itachi is very confident in his abilities, I mean he didn't even consider orochimaru as a threat, but he still decided that fighting Jiraiya was not the smartest thing at that moment. When Itachi fled from Jiraiya and what he said about Jiraiya to me was that Jiraiya is someone that would require him to go all out and even that does not 100% guarantee him absolute success.
    So I guess you think Itachi felt that using genjutsu on a woman would keep Jiraiya distracted long enough for him to take Naruto and run? Come on, I feel like Kishi made it pretty obvious back then that Itachi wasn't a bad guy.

    He didn't kill Kakashi (he could have).

    He didn't use Amaterasu on Kurenai or Asuma to kill them (he could have), and they could've escaped Konoha pretty easy after curbstomping Kurenai and Asuma.

    He specifically stopped Kisame from fighting Kakashi seriously (honestly, Samehada is a rough match up for someone that runs out of chakra as easily as Part 1 Kakashi).

    Madara calls him a hindrance (which I think means that in addition to not allowing Madara to simply attack Konoha, he also was slowing up progress as best as he could).

    Doing something like the genjutsu to the woman shows me that he knew of a generic "weakness" of Jiraiya, and came up with that to act as if he was preventing Jiraiya from coming, knowing that Jiraiya would show up. Jiraiya is excellent and all, but I can't see him defeating the Totsuka Sword. In that specific situation, fighting Itachi while having to defend Naruto (and possibly Sasuke), while having Kisame there as back up...I think it's fairly obvious that Itachi and Kisame would win.

    The dude simply wasn't trying to help Akatsuki move forward at that point.

    In addition, if he was worried about info from Akatsuki leaking, it makes even MORE sense to take out Jiraiya, who he knew gave Kakashi his information. It's hard to go so far as to say that he knew Gai was coming to protect Kakashi and that that's why he gave Kisame the order to capture Kakashi when he did, but I can't honestly believe he was going all out on them or Jiraiya.

    Edit: To be fair, I'm an Itachi fan, so maybe I'm just manipulating the information toward my conclusion, but I don't think it's illogical at all.
    Last edited by UchihaHunter; July 08, 2011 at 03:42 PM.

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  13. #68
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Stigma View Post
    Yeah Itachi is definitely in my eyes Jiraiya's equal. Itachi is very confident in his abilities, I mean he didn't even consider orochimaru as a threat, but he still decided that fighting Jiraiya was not the smartest thing at that moment. When Itachi fled from Jiraiya and what he said about Jiraiya to me was that Jiraiya is someone that would require him to go all out and even that does not 100% guarantee him absolute success. By success I mean secretly taking Naruto without much info about akatsuki leaking. A fight that big is unecessary and has many risks. Itachi doesn't guess or wing it whenever he does something, he makes sure that he has thought everything through and tied every loose ends so that he is sure that nothing will go wrong. Jiraiya was someone he didn't plan for, at least I don't think he did. When I say plan for I mean mentally, e.g
    Itachi realizing this may be a fight where his body will wear out and the disease will damage him further completely reducing his longevity, Or realizing that he may not come out alive cuz Jiraiya is very strong and might kill him or he wins but the disease kills him instead or sharingan goes totally blind and konoha nins kill him.
    His mission was to sneak in and sneak out with Naruto and since Jiraiya was there, it was not worth the trouble. I dunno who'll win, kishi will have to write this one.
    Itachi did consider Jiraiya a challenge, but he never thought he'd lose. He pretended to say that, using Jiraiya's reputation as a basis for saying that to Kisame. If it really came to a fight, I don't think Itachi would be that badly outmatched. Sure, he might lose, but not by that much. Plus, Jiraiya doesn't have a counter to Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan if Itachi brings it out early. And, by Jiraiya's own admission, he's bad at genjutsu and thus, shouldn't be able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu when it was difficult for Orochimaru to try to do so (I think he would have been able to break out if Itachi didn't cut his hand off, which is weird since he shouldn't need to use a headseal to break out).

    No one is thinking in depth about Itachi's statement after figuring out that he was actually a good guy. When Jiraiya said he was bad at genjutsu, people assumed him to mean he was bad at casting genjutsu, yet rarely any will look at the reasons why Itachi said and did what he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernal Stigma View Post
    I think we're all one sided about this debate. How will Itachi beat Jiraiya's genjutsu? Itachi and Jiraya don't even need to be in the same room for Itachi to get caught in it.
    If Jiraiya was caught in a genjutsu wouldn't ma and pa release him? Jiraiya is fast he kicked that pain before he could make a seal and strong is sage mode and if Sasuke was able to stall Amaterasu from hitting him how can Jiraiya not be fast enough to stall it for some time? Also Jiraya doing that quick needle jutsu is imo PURE evidence that he can shed his hair at will and regrow them at will. Jiraiya's hair is as strong as metal according to databook and the fact that it shredded Pain's summoning. So if Amaraterasu were to catch it it wouldn't all burn instantly, I'd say it would take a few seconds. ALSO Jiraiya can seal Amaterasu! So if the hair is burning too fast he can grow out his hair while using his scroll to seal it. If itachi attacks Ma and Pa will use that sonic attack they did on the summoning to push itachi back or Ma could use her tongue that is insanely fast btw to entertain Itachi. The way I see it it could easily go both ways.
    That's considering JIraiya gets into Sage Mode, and Itachi doesn't stop the Frog Song since it takes a while. Plus, would Ma and Pa know Jiraiya's in genjutsu? Jiraiya can't really seal Amaterasu in a fight, no opponent will give him the leisure. Plus, he'd need to do a seal to grow his hair out, which would render it nearly impossible to seal Amaterasu away. Plus, how would Jiraiya be able to block Amaterasu when he has no idea what it is? Even if he did, in this tourney, that'd be negated since Jiraiya initially had no idea of Mangekyo or Amaterasu.

    Dunno when Kakashi learned about Amaterasu though, or even about Mangekyo (pre or post Itachi fight?).

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  15. #69
    Banned 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    No one is thinking in depth about Itachi's statement after figuring out that he was actually a good guy. When Jiraiya said he was bad at genjutsu, people assumed him to mean he was bad at casting genjutsu, yet rarely any will look at the reasons why Itachi said and did what he did..
    Does jiraiya admitted he was bad at genjutsu..? He just said that he have never much of a genjutsu user. My interpretation in this one is that he knows a genjutsu but not much a user.. Afterall, he wasn't a genjutsu type ninja..

  16. #70
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Oh, Japflap's translation is different.

    According to cnet, Jiraiya said this: ".........But I'm honestly no good at genjutsu... // Ah, but the two of you..."

    But Hisshouburaiken translate Jiraiya saying "...I've never been much of a genjutsu user..."

    Anyway, from yours and others' logic who say Itachi was telling the truth, we can still assume Jiraiya wouldn't be able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. He's not a genjutsu user or he isn't good at genjutsu, so he's less likely to be able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu.

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  18. #71
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    If you look at Jiraiya's stats, you'll see he's probably the closest to a perfect score (if you remove his lowest score, he has nothing below 4.5; Kakashi has 2 outside of his lowest score, Orochimaru has 2, Tsunade 3, and even Itachi has 1). His low score, what keeps him from being the sole ninja at 36/40 or above, is Genjutsu, which is a 3. To put that into perspective, Naruto has a 2, with 0 known genjutsu. Tsunade, with no known genjutsu (IIRC), has a 3.5, and Shikamaru has a 3. He knew Frog Song would be an excellent trump card because even Pain knew that he didn't use much genjutsu. If Kakashi, with a 4 in Genjutsu, and the Sharingan couldn't escape Itachi's genjutsu, and Jiraiya is neither a Jinchuuriki nor a Sharingan user, I don't really see how he's escaping Itachi's genjutsu before Itachi gains quite the advantage. With ninja with the speed (both jutsu-wise and actual speed) of Itachi, even a second of incapacitation becomes a great advantage.

    Unlike with Sasuke, where I think he stands a better chance outside of getting into Sage Mode to win, I think with Itachi, it's a lose-lose; it takes time to get into SM, and you're fighting against someone whose seals can't be read by Sharingan users in some cases. If he fights him outside of Sage Mode, he will definitely get caught in genjutsu and be defeated. In SM, it's reasonable to assume that Ma and Pa can break him out, but of course, Itachi's Tsukuyomi happens in an instant, right? So even for that bit of time during which he's definitely caught, he can get pretty messed up. It's a much more difficult fight than the one with Sasuke, imo

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  20. #72
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Oh, Japflap's translation is different.

    According to cnet, Jiraiya said this: ".........But I'm honestly no good at genjutsu... // Ah, but the two of you..."

    But Hisshouburaiken translate Jiraiya saying "...I've never been much of a genjutsu user..."

    Anyway, from yours and others' logic who say Itachi was telling the truth, we can still assume Jiraiya wouldn't be able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. He's not a genjutsu user or he isn't good at genjutsu, so he's less likely to be able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu.
    I am not saying that Jiraiya can certainly break "Itachi's genjutsu," which seemingly means any of his genjutsu, but I am not sure if you have to be good at genjutsu to break out of genjutsu. None of the regular techniques used to break out of genjutsu mentioned having any need to be a great genjutsu user. For the most part it seemed like one has to be able to use ones own chakra well, which is not genjutsu. So him not being good at genjutsu itself does not seem to have any bearing on whether he would be good or bad at breaking out of genjutsu. It is like saying someone has to be good at doton to defeat a doton, but we know that strength can defeat a doton, as can a raiton, and maybe other things. If the only way out of genjutsu was a competing genjutsu, you would make sense. Anyway, the evidence is below, if people are actually interested in manga evidence...

    Spoiler show

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

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  22. #73
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kakashidad's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    I am not saying that Jiraiya can certainly break "Itachi's genjutsu," which seemingly means any of his genjutsu, but I am not sure if you have to be good at genjutsu to break out of genjutsu. None of the regular techniques used to break out of genjutsu mentioned having any need to be a great genjutsu user. For the most part it seemed like one has to be able to use ones own chakra well, which is not genjutsu. So him not being good at genjutsu itself does not seem to have any bearing on whether he would be good or bad at breaking out of genjutsu. It is like saying someone has to be good at doton to defeat a doton, but we know that strength can defeat a doton, as can a raiton, and maybe other things. If the only way out of genjutsu was a competing genjutsu, you would make sense. Anyway, the evidence is below, if people are actually interested in manga evidence...

    Spoiler show
    Now i thing even a CHILD of six could understand that spoiler.Thanks,it's all about chakra control.
    And i've stated this many a time as you know jdw.So for those that got it twisted.Stop trying to
    be too clever with your arguments.Or i might add,Stop shiftingg the goalposts when you've lost
    your argument..it reall is boring.

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  24. #74
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Quote Originally Posted by kakashidad
    Now i thing even a CHILD of six could understand that spoiler.Thanks,it's all about chakra control.
    And i've stated this many a time as you know jdw.So for those that got it twisted.Stop trying to
    be too clever with your arguments.Or i might add,Stop shiftingg the goalposts when you've lost
    your argument..it reall is boring.

    Too much of Jiraiya's explination doesn't explain events we've seen in the manga that contradict his statement. Do you believe to any capacity at all that Jiraiya's chakra control is superior to Orochimaru's by a supremely vast amount? You would have to believe that he's not as susceptible as he is to Genjutsu, a ninja who based on those Databook stats you guys love so much, is superior to Jiraiya in that regard. And yet he's shit against Genjutsu.

    How about the fact that Genjutsu and Ninjutsu are both completely different applications of chakra? Using jdw's analogy, Doton requires a ninja to use their chakra to manipulate and multiply the dirt around them into forms they wish. Genjutsu however is placing one's own chakra inside of another ninja, changing their chakra, then sending the signal throughout their body to alter their senses. One can be defeated with brute power. The other requires far more intricate defenses.

    Being better than someone at doton is as simple as being more skilled at manipulating earth in most it's forms. Defeating a ninja's Doton is as simple as having access to a strong enough jutsu to destroy it. Escaping Genjutsu however requires a ninja to:

    Recognize they are infact trapped (knowledge of Genjutsu and it's application would help here, which Jiraiya states he's no good with).
    Have knowledge of how to escape Genjutsu (Jiraiya knows how, but has never done so, let alone against he series' greatest Genjutsu user)
    Time to do so. (against Tsukiyomi? lmao)

    Having greater chakra has nothing to do with it evidenced by what Itachi did to Naruto, so overpowering it the way he could a Doton isn't happening. Neither can he "Hit" his Genjutsu with another stronger jutsu to overwhelm it like he could a Doton. So that analogy pretty much putters out and dies before it leaves the ground.

    In closing, Genjutsu is more like a poison than a Ninjutsu. You can defeat a Doton without being good at Doton yourself... but you CAN NOT defeat a poison without distinct knowledge of how it works and how to deactivate that poison. And the more powerful and intricate the poison, the more it'll take to actually break out of it (evidenced by how Naruto failed miserably more than once). And really: is there any reason to be as pompous as you guys have been lately? From the way you guys have been replying to people lately you'd think you've proven more points than you actually have.
    Last edited by ninjabot; July 09, 2011 at 06:52 AM.

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  26. #75
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

    Even if you think that Jiraiya cannot escape Itachi's genjutsu, that is fine, but in the end you do not have to be good at actual genjutsu to escape genjutsu. There is no basis for it in the manga that I can recall. Also, although Jiraiya said he is not good at genjutsu itself, he never said he is not astute enough to realize he is in genjutsu, etc. I cannot recall the manga saying you have to be good at genjutsu to have the ability to know you are in one or that one is being cast.

    Whether Jiraiya is better at chakra control than Oro, who knows, but if we assume he does not have more control for the sake of argument, Jiraiya might have similar control but more power, etc., which could lead to a different outcomes. Who knows if Oro was even terribly concerned with breaking out of genjutsu. He might have thought he can just survive his way through whatever. Jiraiya was looking at genjutsu as something he would need to reckon with, imo.

    In the end, Jiraiya knows how to break out of genjutsu even if he is not good at casting it. He does not need to be good at it to break out. If someone presents manga proof that you must be good at genjutsu to know that you are in one or that one is being cast, or need to be good at genjutsu to escape, I will accept it.

    Prove the three things:
    1. One must be good at genjutsu to recognize that genjutsu is being cast
    2. One must be good at genjutsu to recognize that one is in genjutsu
    3. One must be good at genjutsu to be able to break out of genjutsu
    Last edited by jdw; July 09, 2011 at 07:47 AM.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

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