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View Poll Results: Who wins?

Voters
142. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kakashi

    49 34.51%
  • Jiraiya

    93 65.49%
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Thread: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

  1. #166
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Shaunlim's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    See? I just listed a handful. This isn't about providing proof, it's about acknowledging the proof that's been displayed already. I listed atleast 3 counters for Itachi and Sasuke, aswell as more counters for higher ranked ninja in the series. And Susanoo can defend against it because it can be activated faster than Kamui can come into fruition, making Kakashi focus his eyesight on the Susanoo rather than Sasuke, because he'd be behind the skeleton instead. And Sasuke's Amaterasu hits faster than Kamui does, simply look at what level of speed it takes to avoid it. And no, it's not the same as Jiraiya using Endan. To use Endan Jiraiya has to:

    Perform handseals
    Breath. Aim and fire.

    To use Amaterasu you have to:

    LOOK AT THE OPPONENT. Big difference. MS needs to be activated for both Kamui and Amaterasu. The difference being Sasuke can keep his active the whole fight nearly and just drop an Amaterasu the instant Kakashi's pupil dialates. Jiraiya has no such option. He's always gotta perform hanseals for Endan. Sasuke can drop an Amaterasu at a moment's notice with no other prep time other than looking right at Kakashi. Thus, he hits faster than Jiraiya can.





    It was fast enough to bock an attack stated twice to be "too fast" (Susanoo's arrows). This was an attack too fast for one of the fastest ninja (Kakashi) to dodge. Also, both of these ninja had Sharingan, so their dodging prowess was elite and they still couldn't avoid the attack. Kamui has to have divine speed for such a feat. Though admittedly, Danzou likely wasn't looking through his Sharingan arm... but he still acknowledged the speed.

    Also, it is due to plot reasons. Kakashi felt the need to hold back because of his low stamina and the fact that both ninja were capable of incredibly powerful jutsu. His Kamui had to be saved for the right moment. Sasuke was exhausted, so finishing him quick was the plan. God Realm however had him pinned, and he had tried most of his strongest attacks already, so Kamui was his last resort. And remember, in this tournament he's not obligated to fight the way Kishi makes him. Even if he doesn't fight that way in the manga he can fight that way in this tournament.
    It's not like Sasuke can't be seen behind Susano'o. Not to mention that unlike Amateratsu, Kakashi can actually control where Kamui hits thus Susano'o isn't likely to defend Sasuke againts Kamui. What proof is there that Amateratsu happens faster? If anything Amateratsu was shown to be dodge while Kamui still hits all the target so far?

    Just because he hits faster than Jiraiya, doesn't mean Jiraiya can't do anything. Jiraiya doesn't have to wait for Kamui to come before he starts doing something. He can easily keep the pressure on Kakashi making him waste chakra to the point that using Kamui is hazardous. It's also another option.

    The arrow wasn't sucked in which is the difference here. It's pretty much similar to how the bijuudama was blocked by Minato. Which means that Kamui still haven't shown the speed to suck someone completely or tear them apart when said someone is moving about.

    So why isn't his worries carried on here though? He is still the same guy. Even if you want to put that under Kishi is controlling him, it still doesn't change the fact that Kamui haven't been shown to be that fast when it comes to sucking in something that isn't shot into it.

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  3. #167
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by Naruffy View Post
    I think Knuckleheadedninja was right, If Kakashi can use Kamui as a one-hit kill like that, then by all means he should win the tournament. All the objects that he's warped were all moving in a predictable direction, so naturally they'd be easier to warp even if the are moving fast. I can see Jiraiya getting caught if he tries a frontal attack, but, I personally think he'd attack more from blind-spots.
    Kamui can be used and take full effect faster then Kakashi can move some 30 cm... So its a 1 shot kill if the oponent does not have clones running around or some special defence. Its irrelevant how JMan is moving if this thing can be used at that speed.

  4. #168
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Everyone is talking about Kakashi using Kemui on J-man. He has to have clear line or sight like with deidra to set it up and his build up to use it and activate his MS takes awhile. So the time between ativating it and warping J-man and not including his power level drops after using it. He did use it like a homing missle on the robot pain when it was chasing choji but in all he has to have a target that's going in a straight line or clear sight. Now Kakashi has a thousand jutsu at his disposal but J-man has quite a few as well plus sage mode. I give it to J-man because if itachi didn't want to die by fighting him in part one in the hotel then a weaker user of the sharigan (still strong but not like itachi or Sasuke for that matter) then he shouldn't be able to beat J-man.

  5. #169
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by Truballa11 View Post
    Everyone is talking about Kakashi using Kemui on J-man. He has to have clear line or sight like with deidra to set it up and his build up to use it and activate his MS takes awhile. So the time between ativating it and warping J-man and not including his power level drops after using it. He did use it like a homing missle on the robot pain when it was chasing choji but in all he has to have a target that's going in a straight line or clear sight. Now Kakashi has a thousand jutsu at his disposal but J-man has quite a few as well plus sage mode. I give it to J-man because if itachi didn't want to die by fighting him in part one in the hotel then a weaker user of the sharigan (still strong but not like itachi or Sasuke for that matter) then he shouldn't be able to beat J-man.
    If he uses a small version of Kamui there is no build up or anything. The moment JMan is going to charge him with a rasengan he is dead. JMan is not the long range type but the close range, this is a bad thing for him as he is going to be in line of sight and he can't dodge the small Kamui. Its irrelevant the fact that those other 2 times where on linear attacks if JMan can't change his direction before Kamui takes full effect and he can't as Kakashi was unable to move some 30 cm before the arrow get's to him and had to use Kamui. So Kamui is faster then Kakashi moving 30 cm to left or right, or use any other jutsus.

    Also Itachi ran because he wanted to make sure JMan survives and the Kyuubi is not in Madara's hands. Itachi and Kisame would have destroyed JMan back then. Even the fact that Itachi said not even with backup they can't take JMan and it was a lie as we know Pein alone destroyed JMan... Hell even Kisame was asking why they need to run as it made no damn sense to him...

  6. #170
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sevenheadedmirror's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Itachi and Kisame would have destroyed JMan back then. Even the fact that Itachi said not even with backup they can't take JMan and it was a lie as we know Pein alone destroyed JMan... Hell even Kisame was asking why they need to run as it made no damn sense to him...
    But Itachi carefully explained "we gonna get our ass handed to him". Furthermore Kisame did correct his prior statement "He (Jiraya) is a man that could take the spotlight from both the Uchiha and the seven swordsman of the mist". I ignored your convenient interpretation while otherwise stating facts. Itachi said he would be beaten along Kisame if they fought J-man (fact) and Itachi didn't know about sannin that means he'll get uber pawned. But this isn't Itachi. It's Kakashi... sucky got pwned by every Akatsuki Kakashi.

    While Jiraya was sucker punch (or rather sucker ripped off his arm), he had won a fight with three bodies, then fought the six, deduced their peripheral sight, deduced they each can use a single ability, saw that neither was the 'real' body, identified the power of the piercings and captured a body. That means he deconstructed the entire character but for the 5 second interval it took Deva to charge between pushes. In other words all intel of the character came from him... if we are taking the word of Kisame as a fact (most disappointing Akatsuki) then we should take Pein's which states that had Jiraya known all he deduced he'll be on the losing side. Also... neither Itachi (though that is not what is being discussed here)... nor clearly Kakashi (died against one single body) can possibly compare to Pein.
    Last edited by Sevenheadedmirror; July 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM.
    To in infer something and pose it as implied in the source is to justify something.
    The justification that an arc or a story sucks because the author is as tired as us from it can't apply since it's the author's fault it sucks to begin with.

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  8. #171
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted KnuckleheadedNinja's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    So you disagree with the idea that Kakashi would use Kamui right off the bat? Well that's all fine and well, but it really doesn't change the core issue.
    Yes, and let me put it quite simply you were basically making the same argument in Kakashi vs Konan and Kakashi vs Kitsuchi. You didn't think Kakashi would use it until it's the worst case against Kitsuchi. Against Konan, in your argument against Kakashi, you said, "Since Kakashi won't employ Kamui right off the bat, Konan will have the opportunity to act before Kakashi can get serious". So i'm a little stun that now you think Kakashi use it at the first chance he have and to pressure Jiraiya throughout the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunlim View Post
    I find it funny how half of the posts that mentions Kakashi winning with Kamui won't even be here if he is fighting Sasuke. I mean I would just like to ask those that believe in the whole one hit deal how Kakashi vs Sasuke will end?
    Exactly what i'm saying. I ask everybody that don't believe me to go read Kakashi vs Konan, Kakashi vs Kitsuchi, or any other Kakashi vs someone thread we had before. The contrast between this people argument in those thread and this one is huge. The now invincibility argument for Kamui is barely anywhere to be found in those thread. And most of the ones arguing that Kakashi would winning in those fight weren't putting Kamui on the invincibility level they are putting in this thread. Quite enough of them were even arguing against Kakashi beating Konan in that thread. I'm i suppose to believe that Konan is stronger than Jiraiya? Or that she more capable of dealing with Kakashi abilities than Jiraiya? That is laughable.

    I don't mind people saying Kakashi would win, but when it ridiculously obvious that a lot of people saying he is going to win are saying so simply because of there huge dislike for Jiraiya it's hard to take their argument serious. And I know there are people arguing that Kakashi would win because they serious think so, not because they simply would like Jiraiya to lose.
    Last edited by KnuckleheadedNinja; July 15, 2011 at 12:41 PM.

    "Too much hope is the opposite of despair... an overpowering love may consume you in the end."

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  10. #172
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by Naruffy View Post
    I think Knuckleheadedninja was right, If Kakashi can use Kamui as a one-hit kill like that, then by all means he should win the tournament. All the objects that he's warped were all moving in a predictable direction, so naturally they'd be easier to warp even if the are moving fast. I can see Jiraiya getting caught if he tries a frontal attack, but, I personally think he'd attack more from blind-spots.
    Minato could use Hirashin to escape it, and apprently it doesn't work on Madara.

    Orochimaru can regrow himself from whatever he loses, so there's no accouting for it working on him.

    The Raikage and Naruto as he is now may be too fast for Kakashi to contend with and focus on to land a fatal hit.

    There are way to stop Kamui. Just like there are ways to stop Amaterasu. Sadly Jiraiya doesn't have any way to avoid either.

    ---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleheadedNinja View Post
    Exactly what i'm saying. I ask everybody that don't believe me to go read Kakashi vs Konan, Kakashi vs Kitsuchi, or any other Kakashi vs someone thread we have before. The contrast between this people argument in those thread and this one is huge. The now invincibility argument for Kamui is barely anywhere to be found in those thread. And most of the ones arguing that Kakashi would winning in those fight weren't putting Kamui on the invincibility level they are putting in this thread. Quite enough of them were even arguing against Kakashi beating Konan in that thread. I'm i suppose to believe that Konan is stronger than Jiraiya? Or that she more capable of dealing with Kakashi abilities than Jiraiya? That is laughable.
    I've voted for Kakashi all along, up until this point because I thought he was flat out superior to his opponents, and yes because he has Kamui.

    IMO, if you asked me though, Konan has a better shot at defeating Kakashi than Jiraiya does.

    She is a ranged fighter, which allows her to put distance between her and Kakashi. Kamui is more likely to fail on her because not only is she going to be farther away from Kakashi, but she can transform herself into paper and essentially drift away from the wormhole that is created and sustain less damage than Jiraiya in the process.

    While strength certainly does matter in this manga, match-ups are much more important.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  11. #173
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member rell250's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    These tournaments are great for debates, but in the end Kakashi,Jiraiya,Sasuke, and Itachi are all top shinobi and powerful. We're comparing the characters we know of course. But in the Narutouniverse there are thousands of shinobi and those 4 are in entire league of their own.
    Naruto's finale will be EPIC , Nvm Naruto series has a long way to go

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  13. #174
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Naruto_Rasengan's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    If he uses a small version of Kamui there is no build up or anything. The moment JMan is going to charge him with a rasengan he is dead. JMan is not the long range type but the close range, this is a bad thing for him as he is going to be in line of sight and he can't dodge the small Kamui. Its irrelevant the fact that those other 2 times where on linear attacks if JMan can't change his direction before Kamui takes full effect and he can't as Kakashi was unable to move some 30 cm before the arrow get's to him and had to use Kamui. So Kamui is faster then Kakashi moving 30 cm to left or right, or use any other jutsus.

    Also Itachi ran because he wanted to make sure JMan survives and the Kyuubi is not in Madara's hands. Itachi and Kisame would have destroyed JMan back then. Even the fact that Itachi said not even with backup they can't take JMan and it was a lie as we know Pein alone destroyed JMan... Hell even Kisame was asking why they need to run as it made no damn sense to him...
    Jiraiya can fight from any range, he is that versatile. Kakashi can use Kamui off the bat, but we all know that's a terrible idea because if it fails it is game over. Jiraiya is Kakashi's superior.

    Jiraiya can quite easily distract and escape any opponent. He can quite easily gain time to go into Sage Mode whenever he wishes. He can do this via Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō, whilst having Kage Bunshin scope the area from within the shadows. If anyone thinks this isn't possible this is the same Jiraiya who was spying on Akatsuki and Orochimaru without them knowing. He has everything he needs to keep his opponent distracted whilst he enters Sage Mode, which 90% of the time he probably wouldn't find necessary.

    I also don't believe there is any way for Kakashi to counter Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari. Unlike Itachi and Sasuke, Hatake Kakashi does not have Amaterasu - Which was used to escape by Itachi. The question raised here is why did Itachi use Amaterasu to escape if he didn't have to? He was forced to use one of his strongest dou/ninjutsu to escape. What can Kakashi do? His Needle Jizo and Ranjishigami no Jutsu are both extremely powerful techniques, more so Ranjishigami no Jutsu as we've seen it has the power to destroy a boss summon.

    Jiraiya is known to have great talent in all areas, except in genjutsu use (not defense, as they are a completely different thing). His experience and general knowledge of the shinobi world, along with his versatility and Sage Mode he is out of Kakashi's league. As strong as Kakashi is he just wouldn't defeat Jiraiya.

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  15. #175
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by rell250 View Post
    These tournaments are great for debates, but in the end Kakashi,Jiraiya,Sasuke, and Itachi are all top shinobi and powerful. We're comparing the characters we know of course. But in the Narutouniverse there are thousands of shinobi and those 4 are in entire league of their own.
    Leaving out Naruto probably isn't the best idea, lol.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

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  17. #176
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Naruto_Rasengan's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Minato could use Hirashin to escape it, and apprently it doesn't work on Madara.

    Orochimaru can regrow himself from whatever he loses, so there's no accouting for it working on him.

    The Raikage and Naruto as he is now may be too fast for Kakashi to contend with and focus on to land a fatal hit.

    There are way to stop Kamui. Just like there are ways to stop Amaterasu. Sadly Jiraiya doesn't have any way to avoid either.
    Really, no way to avoid Kamui? What do you call Kage Bunshin no Jutsu? What if Jiraiya is using Gamadaira Kage Ayasuri no Jutsu? Bottom line is Kakashi can't Kamui everything away. There is no way for him to know if Jiraiya is using Kage Bunshin or not and even Kakashi knows it's foolish to use Kamui right off the bat.

    Kakashi's biggest problem is he can't really do a whole lot against Jiraiya unless he keeps at range, if he tries close combat he's likely going to get stomped and likely stuck in Doton: Yomi Numa, not much he can do from here. If he stays at range Jiraiya will just start using Kuchiyose no Jutsu, Katon: Gamayu Endan anyone? The best thing about Jiraiya is he can fight anyone and still come off best most of the time due to his versatility. He has so many ways to enter Sage Mode if he needs it and unlike Naruto he can utilize Senpō: Ryōsei no Jutsu eliminating any limit to Sage Mode once he's in it.

    Jiraiya is just too much for Kakashi in my opinion.

  18. #177
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    @Naruto_Rasengan


    Quote Quote:
    Jiraiya can fight from any range, he is that versatile. Kakashi can use Kamui off the bat, but we all know that's a terrible idea because if it fails it is game over. Jiraiya is Kakashi's superior.
    He is most effective in close combat and that is also his fighting style, he is going to engage him with rasengan or other stuff. That is how he fights.

    Quote Quote:
    Jiraiya can quite easily distract and escape any opponent. He can quite easily gain time to go into Sage Mode whenever he wishes. He can do this via Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō, whilst having Kage Bunshin scope the area from within the shadows. If anyone thinks this isn't possible this is the same Jiraiya who was spying on Akatsuki and Orochimaru without them knowing. He has everything he needs to keep his opponent distracted whilst he enters Sage Mode, which 90% of the time he probably wouldn't find necessary.
    If it would be that easy then he would not have that much problems with summons when tring to enter sage mode vs Pein. Also Kakashi has a sharingan and he will see the toad. If Kakashi uses a fireball or something else on the little frog then JMan is in deep shit.
    We also have no idea how he was getting intel on Aka, for all we know he had spies somewhere. Its not like he was hiding in the shadows constantly.

    Quote Quote:
    I also don't believe there is any way for Kakashi to counter Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari. Unlike Itachi and Sasuke, Hatake Kakashi does not have Amaterasu - Which was used to escape by Itachi.
    He could Kamui the wall, he could also create a clone to distract JMan so he can trap inside a clone and not the real thing. Then finaly he could Kamui JMan when the walls are closing in for a instant kill.
    Look here:
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-153-3/...apter-148.html

    For the entire time that jutsu was growing JMan kept his hands down.He only run after them when they got out. This would mean he needs to do that and he would become a perfect target for Kamui.

    Quote Quote:
    Jiraiya is known to have great talent in all areas, except in genjutsu use (not defense, as they are a completely different thing). His experience and general knowledge of the shinobi world, along with his versatility and Sage Mode he is out of Kakashi's league. As strong as Kakashi is he just wouldn't defeat Jiraiya.
    The problem for JMan is getting to sage mode and evading Kamui at the same time. Kamui is about 1 shot and you die on close to any target especialy if you have no idea is coming.

    @Sevenheadedmirror


    I am not going into that again. Itachi lied back then. Itachi lied so much in his life is not even funny. Do you actualy belive a person who killed his entire clan including his parents for Konoha would allow Naruto to get captured and cripple Konoha because of this? Not only that he would give a incredible powerfull tool to Madara who he was actualy tring to stop and kill. Itachi just played a roll back then.

    Also if Pein would have started with all his bodies JMan would have died close to instantly. He would have no way of entering sage mode. Luky for him plot no jutsu got into play and he only had to fight summons for that entire time.
    You can't realy compare JMan fighting 3 realms with Kakashi fighting Deva. For one JMan was NOT alone, that was a 3vs3, JMan had 3 elder sages with incredible techs including the world most powerfull offensive genjutsu and second those 3 realms where nothing compared to Deva in power.
    As for Pein and his words... Well that was just a praise, even Pein said it was a praise to his former master.

  19. #178
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    Don't complain when Kakashi screws up and misses with Kamui. When Jiraiya sees Kamui occurring , he can turn himself flat, and Kakashi will end up with a miss. Jiraiya, feeling bad for the powerful but low-stamina Kakashi, will take full advantage and turn Kakashi into a toad instead of killing him.
    How will Jiraiya see it occur? Kamui has been shown to open and warp something in an instant. If the likes of Deva Path and Sasuke can miss Kamui being used against them, how the heck will Jiraiya notice it? Not to mention one use of Kamui won't weaken Kakashi that much, so what would prevent Kakashi from simply employing another one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunlim View Post
    I find it funny how half of the posts that mentions Kakashi winning with Kamui won't even be here if he is fighting Sasuke. I mean I would just like to ask those that believe in the whole one hit deal how Kakashi vs Sasuke will end?

    That being said, Kamui can't be used to kill people. It simply takes too long for Kakashi to suck something apart or the whole thing when said thing/person is moving about. The reason why Kamui worked so well as a defensive justu was because all Kakashi have to do is open a hole and let the attack go through it. Which is totally different from ripping something apart or sucking it in entirely. That being said, Kakashi puts up a great fight but I would say Jiraiya pulls out a win at the end. The difference in stamina is just too obvious. Kakashi almost tripped and fell after using one Kamui for goodness sake. One miss with Kamui or a forced Kamui would pretty much = a very disadvantaged Kakashi.
    Sasuke's a completely different situation. Sasuke is a mix range fighter who has his own instant technique in the form of Susanoo's arrows that we know Kakashi's only defense against is Kamui. Sasuke would force Kakashi to use up all of his usages of Kamui countering the arrows, leaving none for offense. Jiraiya has no instant long range techniques to force Kakashi on the defensive. There's nothing Jiraiya has that would prevent Kakashi from using it offensively.

    How does it take too long? Kamui opens and warps in a blink of the eye. Kakashi doesn't have to warp Jiraiya's whole boy. Just warping his head would be just as effective. heck, warping an arm away would take away Jiraiya's ability to put up a good fight. So it's hardly a situation that Kakashi needs time to set up. Considering the majority of Jiraiya's attacks are close range, odds are that Jiraiya will eventually have to get close, putting him in range of Kamui. Why does the difference in stamina matter when Kakashi has an instant attack? Kakashi doesn't have to stall Jiraiya out when he has the means to straight out kill Jiraiya. And how will Kakashi miss? Jiraiya doesn't have the speed or reflexes to avoid Kamui. Worst case would be Jiraiya using a clone, but we're talking about Kakashi here. He's not gonna employ Kamui unless he's completely sure it's Jiraiya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naruffy View Post
    I think Knuckleheadedninja was right, If Kakashi can use Kamui as a one-hit kill like that, then by all means he should win the tournament. All the objects that he's warped were all moving in a predictable direction, so naturally they'd be easier to warp even if the are moving fast. I can see Jiraiya getting caught if he tries a frontal attack, but, I personally think he'd attack more from blind-spots.
    The thing is that against Orochimaru and Pain, all Jiraiya did was frontal attacks until he had no other choice but to rely on genjutsu. So by all accounts, Kakashi woudl have multiple chances to get Jiraiya while he's attacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleheadedNinja View Post
    Yes, and let me put it quite simply you were basically making the same argument in Kakashi vs Konan and Kakashi vs Kitsuchi. You didn't think Kakashi would use it until it's the worst case against Kitsuchi. Against Konan, in your argument against Kakashi, you said, "Since Kakashi won't employ Kamui right off the bat, Konan will have the opportunity to act before Kakashi can get serious". So i'm a little stun that now you think Kakashi use it at the first chance he have and to pressure Jiraiya throughout the fight.
    And where exactly in this thread did I ever claim that Kakashi would use it right off the bat? Kakashi knows Jiraiya is a sannin and he knows his own weaknesses. Against Kakuzu and against Deva Path, Kakashi exchanged a few techniques before deciding he should use Kamui. It would be the same situation here. Jiraiya has nothing that would finish Kakashi off straight away, so Kakashi would have plenty of time to test out and measure Jiraiya before deciding to use Kamui. Like I said before, it doesn't matter if Kakashi were to use it straight away or after ten minutes, the effectiveness of Kamui remains the same. It'll still be an instant killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleheadedNinja View Post
    Exactly what i'm saying. I ask everybody that don't believe me to go read Kakashi vs Konan, Kakashi vs Kitsuchi, or any other Kakashi vs someone thread we had before. The contrast between this people argument in those thread and this one is huge. The now invincibility argument for Kamui is barely anywhere to be found in those thread. And most of the ones arguing that Kakashi would winning in those fight weren't putting Kamui on the invincibility level they are putting in this thread. Quite enough of them were even arguing against Kakashi beating Konan in that thread. I'm i suppose to believe that Konan is stronger than Jiraiya? Or that she more capable of dealing with Kakashi abilities than Jiraiya? That is laughable.

    I don't mind people saying Kakashi would win, but when it ridiculously obvious that a lot of people saying he is going to win are saying so simply because of there huge dislike for Jiraiya it's hard to take their argument serious. And I know there are people arguing that Kakashi would win because they serious think so, not because they simply would like Jiraiya to lose.
    If you did read my posts in Kakashi vs Konan, you see exactly why I believed Kamui wouldn't work in that situation. Konan and Jiraiya are completely different ninjas. Konan is a long range fighter who can transform herself into a form that would make Kamui and most of Kakashi's other techniques pretty much useless and would be able to do plenty of damage against Kakashi from a distance. Jiraiya on the other hand is mainly a close range fighter who tends to fight in a forward and direct way. Jiraiya has no long range techniques that would do major damage to Kakashi. Konan's defense against kamui was her paper form, which meant there was nothing solid for Kakashi to target. If she was to be hit by it, chances are she would only lose a portion of he papers. Jiraiya on the other hand has no defense against Kamui. If he's hit by it, at the very least, he'll be heavily injured. And it never became an issue with Kitsuchi because he loses regardless of what Kakashi did. Jiraiya is at least strong enough to handle the rest of Kakashi's techniques. So it's far from simply switching arguments because of some assumed dislike. The fact remains that Jiraiya has no way to defend against an instant attack. Unless you can come up with a plausible way for Jiraiya to avoid Kamui, then Kakashi takes the win, because there's absolutely no reason to not include Kamui.

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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Also Itachi ran because he wanted to make sure JMan survives and the Kyuubi is not in Madara's hands. Itachi and Kisame would have destroyed JMan back then. Even the fact that Itachi said not even with backup they can't take JMan and it was a lie as we know Pein alone destroyed JMan... Hell even Kisame was asking why they need to run as it made no damn sense to him...
    What the heck are you talking about.? Itachi escape simply because he almost ran out of chakra for using his amaterasu. And he knows that his power and kisame's power is not enough to defeat jman. So stop making such a ridiculous assumption just to satisfy your imagination.

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    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    If Jiraiya is running in straight line at Kakashi, or if he's up in the air, he's screwed if Kakashi uses Kamui. Jiraiya doesn't have the reflexes, or the knowledge for that matter to create a counter startegy to Kaumi since he's never seen it before. Kakashi's eye changes, Jiraiya raises his eyebrows in surprise, and next thing he knows he's either lost his head, or his entire body has been transported out the battlefield. Best case is he loses an arm, but that means if he already isn't in Sage Mode he can't preform the seals to summon the toads right? So essentially he'd be left with Rasengan and detection barriers and summoning toads not named Ma and Pa.
    Kakashi can't use Kamui quickly because (I assume this) it'd take up too much chakra. When we saw Kakashi use Kamui against Sasuke, he was tired and couldn't run properly right after, as compared to using two Kamui against Deidara. Against Deidara he had element of surprise and could take his time but with Sasuke he had to use Kamui quickly, no time to focus on approximate chakra. I don't think Kakashi will use Kamui like that because he knows his weakness and won't take chances.

    Plus, I think Jiraiya could dodge Kamui depending on how fast Kakashi is. If he's as fast as he was using it Deidara, Jiraiya could dodge it. Kamui Sasuke-speed, most likely not, but Kakashi wouldn't resort to that unless he had to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minato-sama View Post
    Itachi was more afraid of Jiraiya than Kakashi. Itachi defeated Kakashi easily, even with the mangekyou sharingan he still afraid to face Jiraiya because he know it will end in his death.
    That's a bad argument in Jiraiya's favor, but nothing new from some Jiraiya supporters.
    Do you have solid proof Itachi was scared? Statements mean little here.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    Don't complain when Kakashi screws up and misses with Kamui. When Jiraiya sees Kamui occurring , he can turn himself flat, and Kakashi will end up with a miss. Jiraiya, feeling bad for the powerful but low-stamina Kakashi, will take full advantage and turn Kakashi into a toad instead of killing him.
    As seen, Jiraiya needs a wall for that or he can't use that jutsu, and even then it's not 100% that he can dodge it.

    If I recall, if Jiraiya can't touch Kakashi then no turn-frog no jutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    Piss people off, its a joke. Lighten up. Don't take out your anger over Sasuke's early exit on me. Make better arguments and take defeat gracefully.
    we did make good arguments. There are at least two posts that had no good argument, just saying Jiraiya ftw and Sauke ftl. It was the lurkers, Sasuke haters, and Jiraiya fans that won out. If there were good arguments or any attempt at arguments, then it'd be easier to accept defeat.

    Had I known it was going to be based on who we liked and the amount of lurkers, I'd have voted for Jiraiya to beat Sasuke since I actually like Jiraiya. Jiraiya and Kakashi... both are awesome, hard to vote. But I voted for Kakashi simply because Jiraiya would make the tournament boring. At least with Kakashi, it'd be more fun and hopefully if he does go against Itachi, their first match won't be brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunlim View Post
    I find it funny how half of the posts that mentions Kakashi winning with Kamui won't even be here if he is fighting Sasuke. I mean I would just like to ask those that believe in the whole one hit deal how Kakashi vs Sasuke will end?
    I was about to object, but you said winning with kamui so it's not really directed at me. But it is possible, and in my opinion, Kakashi vs. Jiraiya is unknown but I think Kakashi could beat Sasuke. Not necessarily with Kamui but if it came to raikiri vs. chidori, raikiri would win in my opinion.

    Quote Quote:
    Kakashi almost tripped and fell after using one Kamui for goodness sake. One miss with Kamui or a forced Kamui would pretty much = a very disadvantaged Kakashi.
    Only against Sasuke and because he couldn't focus on the amount of chakra to use, he had to use up a lot more than normal, but this is an assumption based on how he used his Kamui against Deidara compared to using it on the Susano'o arrows. I'd like to believe it's a fact, unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    If you think a race is "rigged against you" (not that it actually is, but just your personal belief) you don't even have to participate. At the starting line, before the flag is waved or whatever, take your car back to pit row and watch the race or something else altogether.
    Even though there is proof the race may be "rigged" against someone? At least there's no Kakashi hater in this fight to hurt Kakashi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sevenheadedmirror View Post
    But Itachi carefully explained "we gonna get our ass handed to him". Furthermore Kisame did correct his prior statement "He (Jiraya) is a man that could take the spotlight from both the Uchiha and the seven swordsman of the mist". I ignored your convenient interpretation while otherwise stating facts. Itachi said he would be beaten along Kisame if they fought J-man (fact) and Itachi didn't know about sannin that means he'll get uber pawned. But this isn't Itachi. It's Kakashi... sucky got pwned by every Akatsuki Kakashi.
    Then afterwards, Kisame said with certainty Itachi could have taken on Jiraiya, to which Itachi merely replied that he needed to rest. Itachi pulled a 360 or mysterious 360 there. You aren't necessarily stating facts, just characters opinions that changed and proved to be otherwise later on. If statements are facts, then Minato getting his ass handed to him by Tobi is a fact. Bad idea to bring ITachi in this fight anyway since statements mean nothing.

    If you noticed (which I doubt you are to support JIraiya), Kakashi was doing well. Against Kakuzu and Hidan he did well, and this was protecting Chouji, Ino, and Shikamaru. He was able to take out Kakuzu's one heart and did well despite Kakuzu having more elements and possibly more chakra. Kakashi did well against Deva and Asura too, Pain did not have the upperhand until he took out the backup and got Kakashi stuck in rubble. EVen then Pain was too careful to go near Kakashi in fear that Kakashi set up a trap and failed at killing Kakashi, while JIriaya got killed. Kakashi was in base mode and fought two of the strongest Pain on his own and injured one (taking out is questionable). Jiraiya needed Sage Mode against one and had to run away, even with Ma and Pa as backup. Kakashi has shown to be pretty impressive, even more so than Jiraiya... he, like Jiraiya, lost few times because of Naruto, to show Naruto's growth and for plot reasons.

    Quote Quote:
    While Jiraya was sucker punch (or rather sucker ripped off his arm), he had won a fight with three bodies, then fought the six, deduced their peripheral sight, deduced they each can use a single ability, saw that neither was the 'real' body, identified the power of the piercings and captured a body. That means he deconstructed the entire character but for the 5 second interval it took Deva to charge between pushes. In other words all intel of the character came from him... if we are taking the word of Kisame as a fact (most disappointing Akatsuki) then we should take Pein's which states that had Jiraya known all he deduced he'll be on the losing side. Also... neither Itachi (though that is not what is being discussed here)... nor clearly Kakashi (died against one single body) can possibly compare to Pein.
    Jiraiya never fought six bodies, he fought three bodies and after taking them out, got his arm blown off by one new body. Jiraiya merely went up close to get a better look at them and got stabbed for his trouble. I think it was Pa who deduced the peripheral sight or at least, shared it with Jiraiya first. Deva never used his power against JIraiya either.

    Some intel came from Jiraiya, the rest were discovered while Pain invaded Konoha. IF we take the word of Pain, Kakashi who is trapped in rubble unable to move even his arms is more dangerous than JIraiya since Deva was too scared to go near Kakashi and used a nail instead. Plus, Kakashi never died against a single body, he died using up his chakra to save Chouji. Had Kakashi not wanted to save Chouji, he'd have most likely still been alive.




    Anyway, ninjabot, are you really shocked at the double standard going on? With JIraiya, Minato, and Naruto, it's always a double standard. Mangekyo is haxxed, despite Sasuke being nearly killed twice, while Hiraishin isn't although Minato has never been hit using Hiraishin. You can't downplay Naruto with manga fact, but you can downplay Sasuke making up your own facts, like Sasuke training with and beating 1000 farmers instead of shinobi, which is apparently less impressive than Minato killing 50 shinobi with Hiraishin. Itachi's statement that he and Kisame (despite otherwise later on) would lose to Jiraiya is true, but Jiraiya saying he's not good at genjutsu or Shi saying Raikage's speed is comparable to Minato's is not manga fact.

    But honestly, whehter Kakashi or JIraiya wins, I won't care much because at least both sides had good arguments and actual arguments. Jiraiya and Kakashi are both superb ninjas as well.

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