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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Just because he hits faster than Jiraiya, doesn't mean Jiraiya can't do anything. Jiraiya doesn't have to wait for Kamui to come before he starts doing something. He can easily keep the pressure on Kakashi making him waste chakra to the point that using Kamui is hazardous. It's also another option.
The arrow wasn't sucked in which is the difference here. It's pretty much similar to how the bijuudama was blocked by Minato. Which means that Kamui still haven't shown the speed to suck someone completely or tear them apart when said someone is moving about.
So why isn't his worries carried on here though? He is still the same guy. Even if you want to put that under Kishi is controlling him, it still doesn't change the fact that Kamui haven't been shown to be that fast when it comes to sucking in something that isn't shot into it.
Everyone is talking about Kakashi using Kemui on J-man. He has to have clear line or sight like with deidra to set it up and his build up to use it and activate his MS takes awhile. So the time between ativating it and warping J-man and not including his power level drops after using it. He did use it like a homing missle on the robot pain when it was chasing choji but in all he has to have a target that's going in a straight line or clear sight. Now Kakashi has a thousand jutsu at his disposal but J-man has quite a few as well plus sage mode. I give it to J-man because if itachi didn't want to die by fighting him in part one in the hotel then a weaker user of the sharigan (still strong but not like itachi or Sasuke for that matter) then he shouldn't be able to beat J-man.
Also Itachi ran because he wanted to make sure JMan survives and the Kyuubi is not in Madara's hands. Itachi and Kisame would have destroyed JMan back then. Even the fact that Itachi said not even with backup they can't take JMan and it was a lie as we know Pein alone destroyed JMan... Hell even Kisame was asking why they need to run as it made no damn sense to him...
While Jiraya was sucker punch (or rather sucker ripped off his arm), he had won a fight with three bodies, then fought the six, deduced their peripheral sight, deduced they each can use a single ability, saw that neither was the 'real' body, identified the power of the piercings and captured a body. That means he deconstructed the entire character but for the 5 second interval it took Deva to charge between pushes. In other words all intel of the character came from him... if we are taking the word of Kisame as a fact (most disappointing Akatsuki) then we should take Pein's which states that had Jiraya known all he deduced he'll be on the losing side. Also... neither Itachi (though that is not what is being discussed here)... nor clearly Kakashi (died against one single body) can possibly compare to Pein.
Last edited by Sevenheadedmirror; July 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM.
I don't mind people saying Kakashi would win, but when it ridiculously obvious that a lot of people saying he is going to win are saying so simply because of there huge dislike for Jiraiya it's hard to take their argument serious. And I know there are people arguing that Kakashi would win because they serious think so, not because they simply would like Jiraiya to lose.
Last edited by KnuckleheadedNinja; July 15, 2011 at 12:41 PM.
Orochimaru can regrow himself from whatever he loses, so there's no accouting for it working on him.
The Raikage and Naruto as he is now may be too fast for Kakashi to contend with and focus on to land a fatal hit.
There are way to stop Kamui. Just like there are ways to stop Amaterasu. Sadly Jiraiya doesn't have any way to avoid either.
---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------
IMO, if you asked me though, Konan has a better shot at defeating Kakashi than Jiraiya does.
She is a ranged fighter, which allows her to put distance between her and Kakashi. Kamui is more likely to fail on her because not only is she going to be farther away from Kakashi, but she can transform herself into paper and essentially drift away from the wormhole that is created and sustain less damage than Jiraiya in the process.
While strength certainly does matter in this manga, match-ups are much more important.
These tournaments are great for debates, but in the end Kakashi,Jiraiya,Sasuke, and Itachi are all top shinobi and powerful. We're comparing the characters we know of course. But in the Narutouniverse there are thousands of shinobi and those 4 are in entire league of their own.
Jiraiya can quite easily distract and escape any opponent. He can quite easily gain time to go into Sage Mode whenever he wishes. He can do this via Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō, whilst having Kage Bunshin scope the area from within the shadows. If anyone thinks this isn't possible this is the same Jiraiya who was spying on Akatsuki and Orochimaru without them knowing. He has everything he needs to keep his opponent distracted whilst he enters Sage Mode, which 90% of the time he probably wouldn't find necessary.
I also don't believe there is any way for Kakashi to counter Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari. Unlike Itachi and Sasuke, Hatake Kakashi does not have Amaterasu - Which was used to escape by Itachi. The question raised here is why did Itachi use Amaterasu to escape if he didn't have to? He was forced to use one of his strongest dou/ninjutsu to escape. What can Kakashi do? His Needle Jizo and Ranjishigami no Jutsu are both extremely powerful techniques, more so Ranjishigami no Jutsu as we've seen it has the power to destroy a boss summon.
Jiraiya is known to have great talent in all areas, except in genjutsu use (not defense, as they are a completely different thing). His experience and general knowledge of the shinobi world, along with his versatility and Sage Mode he is out of Kakashi's league. As strong as Kakashi is he just wouldn't defeat Jiraiya.
Kakashi's biggest problem is he can't really do a whole lot against Jiraiya unless he keeps at range, if he tries close combat he's likely going to get stomped and likely stuck in Doton: Yomi Numa, not much he can do from here. If he stays at range Jiraiya will just start using Kuchiyose no Jutsu, Katon: Gamayu Endan anyone? The best thing about Jiraiya is he can fight anyone and still come off best most of the time due to his versatility. He has so many ways to enter Sage Mode if he needs it and unlike Naruto he can utilize Senpō: Ryōsei no Jutsu eliminating any limit to Sage Mode once he's in it.
Jiraiya is just too much for Kakashi in my opinion.
He is most effective in close combat and that is also his fighting style, he is going to engage him with rasengan or other stuff. That is how he fights.Quote:
If it would be that easy then he would not have that much problems with summons when tring to enter sage mode vs Pein. Also Kakashi has a sharingan and he will see the toad. If Kakashi uses a fireball or something else on the little frog then JMan is in deep shit.Quote:
We also have no idea how he was getting intel on Aka, for all we know he had spies somewhere. Its not like he was hiding in the shadows constantly.
He could Kamui the wall, he could also create a clone to distract JMan so he can trap inside a clone and not the real thing. Then finaly he could Kamui JMan when the walls are closing in for a instant kill.Quote:
For the entire time that jutsu was growing JMan kept his hands down.He only run after them when they got out. This would mean he needs to do that and he would become a perfect target for Kamui.
The problem for JMan is getting to sage mode and evading Kamui at the same time. Kamui is about 1 shot and you die on close to any target especialy if you have no idea is coming.Quote:
I am not going into that again. Itachi lied back then. Itachi lied so much in his life is not even funny. Do you actualy belive a person who killed his entire clan including his parents for Konoha would allow Naruto to get captured and cripple Konoha because of this? Not only that he would give a incredible powerfull tool to Madara who he was actualy tring to stop and kill. Itachi just played a roll back then.
Also if Pein would have started with all his bodies JMan would have died close to instantly. He would have no way of entering sage mode. Luky for him plot no jutsu got into play and he only had to fight summons for that entire time.
You can't realy compare JMan fighting 3 realms with Kakashi fighting Deva. For one JMan was NOT alone, that was a 3vs3, JMan had 3 elder sages with incredible techs including the world most powerfull offensive genjutsu and second those 3 realms where nothing compared to Deva in power.
As for Pein and his words... Well that was just a praise, even Pein said it was a praise to his former master.
How does it take too long? Kamui opens and warps in a blink of the eye. Kakashi doesn't have to warp Jiraiya's whole boy. Just warping his head would be just as effective. heck, warping an arm away would take away Jiraiya's ability to put up a good fight. So it's hardly a situation that Kakashi needs time to set up. Considering the majority of Jiraiya's attacks are close range, odds are that Jiraiya will eventually have to get close, putting him in range of Kamui. Why does the difference in stamina matter when Kakashi has an instant attack? Kakashi doesn't have to stall Jiraiya out when he has the means to straight out kill Jiraiya. And how will Kakashi miss? Jiraiya doesn't have the speed or reflexes to avoid Kamui. Worst case would be Jiraiya using a clone, but we're talking about Kakashi here. He's not gonna employ Kamui unless he's completely sure it's Jiraiya.
Plus, I think Jiraiya could dodge Kamui depending on how fast Kakashi is. If he's as fast as he was using it Deidara, Jiraiya could dodge it. Kamui Sasuke-speed, most likely not, but Kakashi wouldn't resort to that unless he had to.
Do you have solid proof Itachi was scared? Statements mean little here.
If I recall, if Jiraiya can't touch Kakashi then no turn-frog no jutsu.
Had I known it was going to be based on who we liked and the amount of lurkers, I'd have voted for Jiraiya to beat Sasuke since I actually like Jiraiya. Jiraiya and Kakashi... both are awesome, hard to vote. But I voted for Kakashi simply because Jiraiya would make the tournament boring. At least with Kakashi, it'd be more fun and hopefully if he does go against Itachi, their first match won't be brought up.
Only against Sasuke and because he couldn't focus on the amount of chakra to use, he had to use up a lot more than normal, but this is an assumption based on how he used his Kamui against Deidara compared to using it on the Susano'o arrows. I'd like to believe it's a fact, unfortunately.Quote:
If you noticed (which I doubt you are to support JIraiya), Kakashi was doing well. Against Kakuzu and Hidan he did well, and this was protecting Chouji, Ino, and Shikamaru. He was able to take out Kakuzu's one heart and did well despite Kakuzu having more elements and possibly more chakra. Kakashi did well against Deva and Asura too, Pain did not have the upperhand until he took out the backup and got Kakashi stuck in rubble. EVen then Pain was too careful to go near Kakashi in fear that Kakashi set up a trap and failed at killing Kakashi, while JIriaya got killed. Kakashi was in base mode and fought two of the strongest Pain on his own and injured one (taking out is questionable). Jiraiya needed Sage Mode against one and had to run away, even with Ma and Pa as backup. Kakashi has shown to be pretty impressive, even more so than Jiraiya... he, like Jiraiya, lost few times because of Naruto, to show Naruto's growth and for plot reasons.
Jiraiya never fought six bodies, he fought three bodies and after taking them out, got his arm blown off by one new body. Jiraiya merely went up close to get a better look at them and got stabbed for his trouble. I think it was Pa who deduced the peripheral sight or at least, shared it with Jiraiya first. Deva never used his power against JIraiya either.Quote:
Some intel came from Jiraiya, the rest were discovered while Pain invaded Konoha. IF we take the word of Pain, Kakashi who is trapped in rubble unable to move even his arms is more dangerous than JIraiya since Deva was too scared to go near Kakashi and used a nail instead. Plus, Kakashi never died against a single body, he died using up his chakra to save Chouji. Had Kakashi not wanted to save Chouji, he'd have most likely still been alive.
Anyway, ninjabot, are you really shocked at the double standard going on? With JIraiya, Minato, and Naruto, it's always a double standard. Mangekyo is haxxed, despite Sasuke being nearly killed twice, while Hiraishin isn't although Minato has never been hit using Hiraishin. You can't downplay Naruto with manga fact, but you can downplay Sasuke making up your own facts, like Sasuke training with and beating 1000 farmers instead of shinobi, which is apparently less impressive than Minato killing 50 shinobi with Hiraishin. Itachi's statement that he and Kisame (despite otherwise later on) would lose to Jiraiya is true, but Jiraiya saying he's not good at genjutsu or Shi saying Raikage's speed is comparable to Minato's is not manga fact.
But honestly, whehter Kakashi or JIraiya wins, I won't care much because at least both sides had good arguments and actual arguments. Jiraiya and Kakashi are both superb ninjas as well.