Kakashi vs Jiraiya

[M3J]

The guy has copied over 1k jutsu. I'm fairly certain that a few of those were long range. Also unlike the manga this tournament isn't restricted by the plot. Meaning that Kakashi isn't a set up man or finisher for anyone else, he isn't taking a back seat to the plot in the tournament. Kakashi using Kamui right off of the bat against Hidan, Kakuzu, and Deva would have ruined the plot since all three of those guys were development plot tools for other characters. Yet we have clearly seen instances of him starting or wanting to start off fights with Kamui. So thats not really a viable argument against him.

Being able to copy over 1K jutsu doesn't mean he can use them all, though. Plus, Deidara was flying; is there any jutsu that could go long range against an aerial opponent? I can only think of chidori, and even then there's a limited range, and Kakashi probably can't manipulate his raikiri like that.

Kakashi not using Kamui right off the bat makes sense as well. Kakashi has said to Naruto (?) not to show off jutsu, his fighting style against unknown opponents is to observe them to come up with a way to beat them. Using a powerful jutsu so early would mean higher chances of failing and enemies learning out to counter it, as well as wasting chakra. By leaving it to the last, he can actually get a surprise on the enemy.

Because Nagato had no idea about Kamui, Kakashi could feign death and be able to save Chouji without worrying about Deva making sure Kakashi was dead. Hidan survived a decapitation, and Kakuzu was still a mystery. Kakashi was safer making sure neither knew of Kamui so he could use it when he needed to, like when Kakuzu was able to finish Kakashi, Chouji, and Ino off. Plus, Kakashi up until the end wasn't really having as much trouble with them that'd require him to bust out Kamui. When kakashi started off with Kamui or needed Kamui, it was because he had no choice. Otherwise when Kakuzu didn't expect it, Kakashi could have Kamui'd Kakuzu's head off.

Kakashi can start off the same way here, assessing Jiraiya's skills with a kage bunshin. Once he's gotten Jiraiya figured out, he can come up with ways to counter Jiraiya's moves, which Kakashi has. If Jiraiya tries to use katon, Kakashi can counter with suiton. Doton can be countered with raiton, and Kakashi has doton as well. Plus, if Jiraiya tries to summon Ma and Pa, that leaves him more open to Kakashi's attacks.

Jiraiya beat Sasuke, with the defense being that he could defend against/overcome Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo. I can't see how he loses to Kakashi, even with Kamui, especially considering that against Pain (who we all know is stronger than Deidara, and that Kakashi should've also known, seeing as how he killed Jiraiya), he didn't use Kamui until he absolutely had to.

Jiraiya wins even without Sage Mode, since it's really hard for Kakashi to handle any of the frogs, really, and remember that because Jiraiya knows how to break out of genjutsu, Kakashi can't catch him genjutsu, lol

I get the feeling you're being sarcastic.

He went into sage mode with one body not because he needed to but because he knew about the threats of the Rin'negan... he was right. Kakashi not using the attack early on the battle proves my point on it being risky and also on being deadly for he had visibly taken a toll when he used it against Sasuke. Furthermore how is sneaking up NOT the main technique of the copy ninja?... vs Itachi (when he had the upper hand) sneaked. vs Pain sneaked (thrice!). vs First AND second fight with Zabuza sneaked. If sneaking is somehow diminishing Jiraya it leaves Kakashi without nothing. Plus the sannin had one arm when fighting th six bodies, it is somehow justified.

Kakashi also knew about the power of Rin'negan and was still able to handle one and then two bodies on his own. What I don't get is this: some translations say Kakashi had come up with a plan before backups arrived, while the others don't mention this at all, I think. It's confusing. <_<

Like I said though, it can be due to Kakashi not gathering enough chakra. He may have used up too much chakra in a rush to do Kamui, but Jiraiya doesn't have any attacks that are as fast as Susano'o's arrows.

he was not fighting the Six Paths, he was sneaking up on them. When Kakashi sneaked up on his enemies, he intended to fight them. Jiraiya never did, he only intended to get more information on Pain to send back to Konoha. It just so happens Jiraiya got discovered before he could get away. I mean, he even got out of Sage Mode, he wasn't trying to fight at all. This doesn't make Jiraiya look bad though, in fact it makes him look better. Jiraiya, instead of running away after losing an arm, went to get more info on Pain and risk being killed. Shows he can tank attacks pretty well too.

[Lelo]

If Jiraiya beat Sasuke then how the hell can he lose to Kakashi. You guys confuse me sometimes.

As for who I think wins, Kakashi's MS could catch Jiraiya by surprise but I dont think Jiraiya would be taken out that easily. If Jiraiya summons some frogs and then uses whatever time he has to go Sagemode(while dodging Kakashis attacks like he did against Pein) then I dont think he could hit Jiraiya with MS. And if he misses at least twice, Kakashi would have no more chakra. I wanna say Jiraiya wins but I need to think about it more

Plus this thread should have been Sasuke vs Kakashi

[En Yang Ji]

Getting on top of or maneuvering around boss summons shouldn't be a problem for mobile, fast ninja like Kakashi.

[xXan]

Kamui was that fast because it hit the target when it was extremely close to him: it took him much more time to warp the rocket that Asura path launched.

If Jiraya is on top of a toad, I doubt Kakashi would be able to hit Jiraya with it, plus when was the last time he used Kamui right off the bat?

Err vs Madara? Of course he stoped as Madara told him it would not work on him but still.

[UchihaHunter]

I'm glad somebody got it, lol...anyway, like I said, anyone that voted for Jiraiya over Sasuke should be voting Jiraiya over Kakashi, especially anyone that thinks he could've beaten Itachi and Kisame together in Part 1...I don't see how this is even a debate.

[Marshmallow-sama]

Well Kamui was both his first and second jutsu that he used against Deidara. And he did use it after like 2 minutes of fighting Sasuke. And he was going to use it right off of the bat against Madara.

Didn't he know prior knowledge about those guys? I thought in this tournament the opponents just know common knowledge like Sharingan-Uchiha, Byakugan-Hyuuga and stuff? So it's to my understanding that Kaka and J-Man don't know each other

[biggchiefmo]

Love Kakashi but he's up against a legend here, though he's copied a 1000 jutsu we've seen like 1 or 2% of it and none of it capable of taking a Jiraiya down. Like shikamaru's dad said in regards to Naruto during the Pain invasion, if he's learned SAGE ARTS he's in a league all his own. Same goes for Jiraiya who is the first SAGE introduced into the story, he has more chakra at his disposal, a much sturdier body with his natural chakra, frog kungfu, experience against some of the most deadly ninja in the manga like Orochimaru whom Kakashi wouldnt dare go against in part 1 and would probably still have a very difficult time against in part 2.

Jiraiya has an extremely huge advantage over Kakashi with his toad summons being much more powerful and effective than Kakashi's dog summons, Kakashi's signature jutsu is no good, since Jiraiya has his signature jutsu (Via Minato) which is equal in power until Jiraiya makes it 10 or 20times bigger.

Kakashi's only true hope is his MS jutsu, but i dont think that Kakashi would have the time or ability to keep his eye on Jiraiya long enough to warp him into the worm hole thing. Jiraiya is just too powerful and versatile for a Kakashi.

[zerocooldx]

Being able to copy over 1K jutsu doesn't mean he can use them all, though. Plus, Deidara was flying; is there any jutsu that could go long range against an aerial opponent? I can only think of chidori, and even then there's a limited range, and Kakashi probably can't manipulate his raikiri like that.

Kakashi not using Kamui right off the bat makes sense as well. Kakashi has said to Naruto (?) not to show off jutsu, his fighting style against unknown opponents is to observe them to come up with a way to beat them. Using a powerful jutsu so early would mean higher chances of failing and enemies learning out to counter it, as well as wasting chakra. By leaving it to the last, he can actually get a surprise on the enemy.

Because Nagato had no idea about Kamui, Kakashi could feign death and be able to save Chouji without worrying about Deva making sure Kakashi was dead. Hidan survived a decapitation, and Kakuzu was still a mystery. Kakashi was safer making sure neither knew of Kamui so he could use it when he needed to, like when Kakuzu was able to finish Kakashi, Chouji, and Ino off. Plus, Kakashi up until the end wasn't really having as much trouble with them that'd require him to bust out Kamui. When kakashi started off with Kamui or needed Kamui, it was because he had no choice. Otherwise when Kakuzu didn't expect it, Kakashi could have Kamui'd Kakuzu's head off.

Kakashi can start off the same way here, assessing Jiraiya's skills with a kage bunshin. Once he's gotten Jiraiya figured out, he can come up with ways to counter Jiraiya's moves, which Kakashi has. If Jiraiya tries to use katon, Kakashi can counter with suiton. Doton can be countered with raiton, and Kakashi has doton as well. Plus, if Jiraiya tries to summon Ma and Pa, that leaves him more open to Kakashi's attacks.

If Kakashi coped 1k jutsu then he can use any one of those 1k jutsu. Otherwise why say he say that he coped 1k jutsu to begin with? Instead he would be called the shinobi who saw or witnessed 1k jutsu or something. lolz

And again you have to separate plot restrictions from this tournament. The plot makes shinobi function certain ways. Kakashi when he has had to yield to the plot has drawn fights out and played by the "rules" so that other characters could grow. However we have seen him use or get ready to use Kamui as his first jutsu in a fight. Also Jiraiya isn't really going to be too much of an unknown to him. He is a world famous shinobi from the same village as Kakashi and with that fame comes knowledge of jutsu, abilities, strategies and etc. The same applies to Kakashi as well. There would be no real need for them to "feel" each other out.

Kakashi didn't know all that much about Deidara, certainly less then he knows of Jiraiya, yet he used Kamui twice on him as his first two jutsu. He didn't hesitate a second to go for the kill right from the start. Then against Madara, whom all he knew about was that he could go intangible and use a ST jutsu, he once again got ready to use Kamui right off of the bat. I can go on and on. But the fact of the matter is that we have seen Kakashi several times use or want to use Kamui as soon as a fight starts or shortly after. Plus like i said, he isn't yielding to anyone in this tournament due to the plot. Its all out Kakashi from the get go, just like anyone else.

[lordHokage]

This is an easy win for Pervy Sage. Since Kakashi is so addicted to Icha Icha series of books, all Pervy Sage need to do is use the same trick Naruto used against Kakashi. Match over.

[Naruffy]

Voted Jiraiya, it wouldn't be an easy fight though. Kakashi using Kamui right of the bat here would be different than him using it as he did against Sasuke and Deidara. When he used it against Deidara, was Deidara flying straight away from them or he wasn't trying to attack Kakashi at the time he used it, so naturally is was easier for him to warp away. Then against Sasuke and Pain he used it to warp away a target that was headed straight towards him. We haven't seen him use it on a moving person that it actually trying to attack him, I doubt Jiraiya would start of with a beeline attack.

If it's as simple as Kakashi warping Jiraiya away instantly, then Kakashi would be near unbeatable unless you had Madara's justu or Minato's speed. Unless we actually see Kakashi instantly warp a person away like that, assuming it'd be that simple against Jiraiya is just illogical.

[Zoro #1]

Its so funny that we are actually mulling over one tech. that kakashi has over J-man, a tech. that kakashi can't even keep up for a extended period of time. Just a question does anyone over here has proof that J-man doesn't know about kamui, because as far as i'm concerned kakashi used the tech. pretty early on while J-man was still alive, so who is to say that J-man already knows about the tech.
Secondly if Itachi himself said that him and kisame will have trouble and might not come out unharmed if they have to take on J-man, and itachi is much better genjutsu user than kakashi, so who is to say that j-man can't counter the level of genjutsu tech. kakashi posses.

[M3J]

If Kakashi coped 1k jutsu then he can use any one of those 1k jutsu. Otherwise why say he say that he coped 1k jutsu to begin with? Instead he would be called the shinobi who saw or witnessed 1k jutsu or something. lolz

He can use those jutsu, but it doesn't mean 100% he can. If he can do katon and fuuton, why hasn't he? There's no way he hasn't learned katon when it's easily one of the most used jutsu, and he even saw Itachi use it. He needs to be able to use the element of the jutsu he copied, otherwise it's just jutsu he can potentially use.

And again you have to separate plot restrictions from this tournament. The plot makes shinobi function certain ways. Kakashi when he has had to yield to the plot has drawn fights out and played by the "rules" so that other characters could grow. However we have seen him use or get ready to use Kamui as his first jutsu in a fight. Also Jiraiya isn't really going to be too much of an unknown to him. He is a world famous shinobi from the same village as Kakashi and with that fame comes knowledge of jutsu, abilities, strategies and etc. The same applies to Kakashi as well. There would be no real need for them to "feel" each other out.

I did separate plot restriction from this tournament. Against Kakuzu, we saw Kakashi hide and observe Kakuzu and thus be able to surprise him with raikiri. Against Deva, we saw him use kage bunshin when Kakashi was shinra tensei'd into rubble and as result, be able to learn about Asura's and Deva's abilities without putting himself in as much danger. We haven't always seen him use Kamui, only when he needed to. He probably had no other jutsu that could hit Deidara long range while in the air, and Kamui was the only option against Sasuke's fast Susano'o arrow attacks. Against Tobi... was it really a fight or was Kakashi just trying to take out Tobi?

They would have no info on each other though, so Kakashi wouldn't know about Jiraiya's Sage Mode and Jiraiya wouldn't know about Kakashi's Mangekyo. Maybe about rasengan, raikiri, and other jutsu, but I'm not sure. Unless Kakashi knows a lot about Jiraiya's fighting style, he will try to feel out Jiraiya.

Kakashi didn't know all that much about Deidara, certainly less then he knows of Jiraiya, yet he used Kamui twice on him as his first two jutsu. He didn't hesitate a second to go for the kill right from the start. Then against Madara, whom all he knew about was that he could go intangible and use a ST jutsu, he once again got ready to use Kamui right off of the bat. I can go on and on. But the fact of the matter is that we have seen Kakashi several times use or want to use Kamui as soon as a fight starts or shortly after. Plus like i said, he isn't yielding to anyone in this tournament due to the plot. Its all out Kakashi from the get go, just like anyone else.

Deidara didn't know about Kamui and it was probably the only option Kakashi had. What jutsu would he have that could reach long distance? I don't think doton and raiton can reach that far and there was no water around. Against Tobi, he wanted to kill him quickly and I think thought Tobi had no idea about Kamui. He knew about Tobi's abilities and had Naruto and Sakura as backup, so he could afford to use Kamui. According to the tournament rules, neither opponent has any info on each other, so Kakashi wouldn't use Kamui right off the bat unless he had to.

I know it is, and Kakashi all out wouldn't use every single one of his powerful jutsu unless he was sure he could connect. He would waste his chakra and give away his powerful technique that could hurt him if it fails. Kakashi knows Jiraiya is powerful, he can't afford to take chances and use up chakra exhausting jutsu at the start, he'd try to tire Jiraiya out.

[Zoro #1]

Kakashi might have copied all 1k tech. and might as well know how to use them, but that doesn't mean he can use those tech. to same extent as the original user he copied it from. kakashi seriously lacks in the area of stamina and chakra, he might have 1k jutsus. However, it doesn't mean he can use all of them in a fight.

[jdw]

I am not sure that Kakashi can use Kamui in the way that people are describing. Indeed, his usage of Kamui has improved since he unveiled it against Deidara, but I am not really seeing this extreme Kamui sniping prowess. If we go from the beginning for sniping like behavior, (1) when he used it against Deidara, it was against a flying object that appeared to be moving at a steady pace, with little variation. Against Pain's nail attack, Kakashi Kamui's a fast moving nail that was headed straight for him. Against Pain's missile, he basically once again took out an object that appeared to be moving at a straight line at a steady pace, etc. Once again, against Sasuke, he took out arrows that were headed straight for him. It is so repetitive I am tired of typing it.

If Jiraiya takes any evasive maneuvers, or is in a place where Kamui can be obstructed, it might prove to be pretty useless. Furthermore, if Kakashi fires an misses, he might as well kill himself straight away because his future is death. Kakashi has no feats of accurate Kamui sniping while on the move against moving objects, iirc.

Kamui at the outset is Kakashi's only hope, but it isn't 100% or even close. Once they start to fight for real, it is lights out for Kakashi. His dogs are decent, but they cannot mess with the toads. In the end, Kakashi doesn't have the stamina to contend with a shinobi like Jiraiya, whose arsenal is as vast but far more powerful.

[White Silver King]

A pretty signature move of Jiraiya's is running straight at his opponents with a rasengan in hand....

But Jiraiya can break genjutsu, he knows how to do so...so he can counter every genjutsu in the manga. No genjutsu can hold Jiraiya, he knows how to break them. In addition, Jiraiya and Kakashi have comparable speed, while Jiraiya's strength and chakra are far greater...

When has Jiraiya broken HIMSELF out of a high-level sharingan genjutsu because I'm honestly drawing a blank? Show it to me and I will believe this.