Kakashi vs Jiraiya

[DaHeroic1]

Lol when did this thread become comparing who's performance was greater against Pain lol. Of course Jiraiya performed better by himself but i think we can all agree that Kakashi's leadership,intelligence,skill were top notch in that fight aswell. He actually engaged the strongest path and within minutes of fighting was able to deduce what his ability was and found the interval to defeat God pain. Then after coming up with a nice plan which was foiled by robot Pain he decided to throw away his life and save at the time a shinobi who was pretty weak in Choji so he could share the information Kakashi found. No disrespect to Naruto as his performance against Pain was greater then the other 2 but imagine if he had no idea about God realm from the start and didn't know about his 5 second interval. I like to look at the Pain arc as full tactical battle that was a team effort from the second Jiraiya was defeated to Naruto converting Nagato. It showed the passing of the torch in a sense as the village banded together to defeat an all powerful advesary. Everybody contributed from Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi, Konohamuru,Naruto, etc.

[xXan]

Lol when did this thread become comparing who's performance was greater against Pain lol. Of course Jiraiya performed better by himself but i think we can all agree that Kakashi's leadership,intelligence,skill were top notch in that fight aswell. He actually engaged the strongest path and within minutes of fighting was able to deduce what his ability was and found the interval to defeat God pain. Then after coming up with a nice plan which was foiled by robot Pain he decided to throw away his life and save at the time a shinobi who was pretty weak in Choji so he could share the information Kakashi found. No disrespect to Naruto as his performance against Pain was greater then the other 2 but imagine if he had no idea about God realm from the start and didn't know about his 5 second interval. I like to look at the Pain arc as full tactical battle that was a team effort from the second Jiraiya was defeated to Naruto converting Nagato. It showed the passing of the torch in a sense as the village banded together to defeat an all powerful advesary. Everybody contributed from Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi, Konohamuru,Naruto, etc.

Not by himself. He had 2 elder frogs with him that had insane powerfull jutsus.

[EMS]

jiraya don't have a Kekkei Genkai as kakashi's sharingan that even if the sharingan take so much chakra from him still kakashi got more Benefits( ability to read Genjutsu, Taijutsu and Ninjutsu,view a technique being performed and almost instantly memorize the ,Sees chakra/movement/flow,moldings and seals used and kamui), if jiraya had sennin-mode, kakashi as well had the sharingan.
kakashi is an excellent shinobi but as sasuke said in the manga that eye saved you so many times.

[rell250]

You say it as if Kakashi almost taking out Deva was all his feat? As I remember, it was Chouza and Chouji that took out Asura Path not Kakashi. Last I remember Kakashi did put up one hell of a show against Deva Path but that's it, once Asura came in you could see Kakashi was in trouble as he wasted almost half his chakra just to use a lighting clone. And sure, Kakashi had his hands full with Deva & Asura...but think for a moment, could Kakashi have really handled the 3 Paths J-Man did? What would Kakashi have done against Animal Path alone? Send his cute little ninja dogs? And if Preta Path tagged alone it would've been a day over for Kakashi and his low chakra.

Anyways, both of them did one heck of a job with their respective opponents. The thing is, J-Man put up one hell of a show only knowing something that was completely worthless at the beggining of the fight. He knew Nagato could use all elements...did that help him in any way? Nope. In the end I guess that what I'm trying to say is that everyone should just stop trying to downplay the other, the fact is both fought a part of Pain, both put up one hell of a show despite their little to no intel, both died, but both also managed to gather info that would prove to be CRUCIAL in Pain's defeat.

Actually Kakashi's trap bunshin was the things that stunned and immobiliezed Asura Pain. And if you re read the chapter Kakashi says he was prepared for this which means he was going to continue to take out the Asura path most likely with Kamui while he hid in the rubble. I'm sorry but you guys can downlay Kakashi ALL you want. He's just as much as a badass as Jiraiya and now that he's still alive he can surpass him maybe ; )

[DementedKirby]

Not by himself. He had 2 elder frogs with him that had insane powerfull jutsus.

Bugs and animals are ninja tools. As stated by Hayate in the TOURNAMENT. If we're going by the manga, which everyone is trying to use to as defense for their argument, should use the evidence correctly. Sometimes it feels like people here are reading 75 different manga all called Naruto. The manga is in black and white (and sometimes color ) and it's clear. Just because the tools used by Kakashi are sentient beings doesn't mean they stop being ninja tools. As for the the who-did-better-against-Pain debate, that should be besides the point. People don't follow the transitive property. Just because Ninja A defeated Ninja B who defeated Ninja C doens't mean that Ninja A can defeat Ninja C. It's irrelevant. It's not rock-paper-scissors, either. It all depends on the ninja.

People have made strong arguments on both sides. It took me awhile to dive into the argument because I love both characters and I voted for Jiraiya not because I love him more, but because he's got better skills. Jiraiya may not be the strategic powerhouse that Kakashi is, but Jiraiya ain't a moron, either. Jiraiya was always smart enough to track down Orochimaru and get intel on Akatsuki - a super secret organization. Plus, he could always openly peep on women and never get caught .

I believe that people are derailing the topic by having a "who's better by how they faired against Pain" debate. Just create a new thread and talk the smack there. True, we need to use a ninja's previous battles as reference to how they'd fare against their opponent. But by no means should that automatically decide the victor. No one here is Kishimoto, so any logical and well made argument made in either's favor is plausible. Hell, if it wasn't shown the manga, who would've thought that Konohamaru would've given one of the Path's a Rasengan? No one. It's just as likely that Kakashi can catch Jiraiya offguard and Raikiri his ass. In my opinion, I doubt it, but we can't really argue that it's impossible.

All the rest of the matches are gonna go this way. I wanna see who's gonna be brave enough to say that Itachi's gonna lose to Madara .

[rell250]

This was my same argument in the Jiraiya vs. Sasuke thread. It's a fight between two ninja - not two skillsets. Because the argument always boiled down to "Sasuke has Amaterasu". Which is why I said that following that logic anyone with Amaterasu will always win a match. Give Amaterasu to Pakkun and he'd instantly own everyone alive? That's not how it works. To quote Zetsu: "a master with a stone can defeat a novice with a kunai". So personality and fighting-style are as much of a factor to determine a ninja's battle performance just as much as his/her abilities set.

Hence why Sasuke was able to compete with Itachi with just his regular sharingan. Also it points out just how amazing Kakashi is. The only thing "given" to him was Sharingan but everything else is all him. He's excellent and his chakra control is getting better it seems. Lets not also forget who Kakashi is a student of...

---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------

You keep saying Kakashi in base mode when it isn't true. He was using sharingan from the moment he arrived on the scene.

No disrespect but imo this is one low level attempt to make a point. You're going to compare Kakashi using a sharingan to Sage Mode? I think this ends the discussion and Kakashi wins by default now. ( I think Jiraiya and Kakashi are pretty even) Instead of throwing cheap shots provide some reasons as to why you think Jiraiya would succeed. That is his base mode, he has no physical enhancements like Sage Mode gives, even tho im confident Kakashi could fight a Sage Jiraiya anyways.

[3c]

Tournament Rule Nr. 1 - No bashing or flaming, direct or indirect

The ones that feel hit by the above sentence know who they are. Keep the discussions friendly in ALL threads. There's no reason to get emotional, this is a tournament meant for FUN purposes and entertainment.

Also may I remind you that this is a thread meant to discuss Kakashi vs Jiraiya, if you want to explain their powers through other fights that's fine, but make a connection and don't stray off into a completely different battle.

[jdw]

statements are manga facts, until they are proven otherwise by later manga statements.

Hence why Sasuke was able to compete with Itachi with just his regular sharingan. Also it points out just how amazing Kakashi is. The only thing "given" to him was Sharingan but everything else is all him. He's excellent and his chakra control is getting better it seems. Lets not also forget who Kakashi is a student of...

---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------



No disrespect but imo this is one low level attempt to make a point. You're going to compare Kakashi using a sharingan to Sage Mode? I think this ends the discussion and Kakashi wins by default now. ( I think Jiraiya and Kakashi are pretty even) Instead of throwing cheap shots provide some reasons as to why you think Jiraiya would succeed. That is his base mode, he has no physical enhancements like Sage Mode gives, even tho im confident Kakashi could fight a Sage Jiraiya anyways.

It is ok if you think that it is a low level attempt, but please respond to this then:

How is saying that Sharingan is an enhancement a low level attempt to make a point? Is it not an enhancement? Is calling Sharingan an enhancement trolling? Sharingan comes with a set of skills and enabled Kakashi to pick up numerous (1000) useful skills over the course of a lifetime. I am not saying that Sharingan and Sage Mode are 1:1, but I am also not naive enough to overlook that Sharingan is an enhancement of Kakashi's shinobi abilities. Even if Kakashi has no physical enhancements like Sage Mode gives, Jiraiya has no doujutsu enhancements like sharingan gives. They each have their own upside.

How you feel about it compared to sage mode is up to you. Sharingan:

• Sees chakra/movement/flow
• Steal jutsu
• Prediction abilities (aids taijutsu when matched with offensive timing, completes Raikiri/Chidori)
• Built-in Genjutsu
• Built-in Genjutsu decoding
• See through hand seals

These are abilities you get if you go from "no sharingan" to "sharingan," it is plainly obvious to most people that sharingan is a serious enhancement for a shinobi, otherwise no one would give a damn about them, instead they are very highly sought. If we add in MS, Kakashi can now warp away all types of stuff, etc.

[rell250]

It is ok if you think that it is a low level attempt, but please respond to this then:

How is saying that Sharingan is an enhancement a low level attempt to make a point? Is it not an enhancement? Is calling Sharingan an enhancement trolling? Sharingan comes with a set of skills and enabled Kakashi to pick up numerous (1000) useful skills over the course of a lifetime. I am not saying that Sharingan and Sage Mode are 1:1, but I am also not naive enough to overlook that Sharingan is an enhancement of Kakashi's shinobi abilities. Even if Kakashi has no physical enhancements like Sage Mode gives, Jiraiya has no doujutsu enhancements like sharingan gives. They each have their own upside.

How you feel about it compared to sage mode is up to you. Sharingan:

• Sees chakra/movement/flow
• Steal jutsu
• Prediction abilities (aids taijutsu when matched with offensive timing, completes Raikiri/Chidori)
• Built-in Genjutsu
• Built-in Genjutsu decoding
• See through hand seals

These are abilities you get if you go from "no sharingan" to "sharingan," it is plainly obvious to most people that sharingan is a serious enhancement for a shinobi, otherwise no one would give a damn about them, instead they are very highly sought. If we add in MS, Kakashi can now warp away all types of stuff, etc.

Theres a difference between a "tool" and "enchancement". Kakashi uses his tool with the expertise of the people that they actually belong to Uchihas. Sage Mode enchances your physical body and attacks case closed. No way around it. Kakashi has NO PHYSICAL enhancements. But you know what. Ill let you think your right since Kakashi is such an expertise with his Sharingan that it has to be called physical enchancement lol. Charlie Sheen # winning

[xXan]

Bugs and animals are ninja tools. As stated by Hayate in the TOURNAMENT. If we're going by the manga, which everyone is trying to use to as defense for their argument, should use the evidence correctly. Sometimes it feels like people here are reading 75 different manga all called Naruto. The manga is in black and white (and sometimes color ) and it's clear. Just because the tools used by Kakashi are sentient beings doesn't mean they stop being ninja tools. As for the the who-did-better-against-Pain debate, that should be besides the point. People don't follow the transitive property. Just because Ninja A defeated Ninja B who defeated Ninja C doens't mean that Ninja A can defeat Ninja C. It's irrelevant. It's not rock-paper-scissors, either. It all depends on the ninja.

People have made strong arguments on both sides. It took me awhile to dive into the argument because I love both characters and I voted for Jiraiya not because I love him more, but because he's got better skills. Jiraiya may not be the strategic powerhouse that Kakashi is, but Jiraiya ain't a moron, either. Jiraiya was always smart enough to track down Orochimaru and get intel on Akatsuki - a super secret organization. Plus, he could always openly peep on women and never get caught .

I believe that people are derailing the topic by having a "who's better by how they faired against Pain" debate. Just create a new thread and talk the smack there. True, we need to use a ninja's previous battles as reference to how they'd fare against their opponent. But by no means should that automatically decide the victor. No one here is Kishimoto, so any logical and well made argument made in either's favor is plausible. Hell, if it wasn't shown the manga, who would've thought that Konohamaru would've given one of the Path's a Rasengan? No one. It's just as likely that Kakashi can catch Jiraiya offguard and Raikiri his ass. In my opinion, I doubt it, but we can't really argue that it's impossible.

All the rest of the matches are gonna go this way. I wanna see who's gonna be brave enough to say that Itachi's gonna lose to Madara .

It is true those are considered ninja tools in the tournament but we where discusion the performance from both caracters in the manga. Madara can warp half of Aka with him and kill 3 kages at the same time, its not diferent then the frogs. Kakaksi was fighting alone, like in no summons for help. Frogs are sentient lifeforms just like humans and JMan uses a jutsu to summon them. Pein can use his jutsu to summon peeps into battle to. The clasification of Ninja Tools was set because peeps started arguing over the fact that peeps can summon other ninja's on the battlefield as there jutsus alowed for that.
Bottom line is Pein was fighting 3 extremly powerfull ninjas in JMan's case but only 1 in Kakashi's.
If you whant to debate this further the frogs are not even ninja tools if not for the tournament rules. The frogs are JMan's friends and they help him because of that. They can say no and walk away any time they would whant that. They can also themselfs summon JMan if they whant to. We all remember Naruto summoning Bunta in part one and Bunta refusing to help him(well at first).

[jdw]

@Rell250: I am not stuck on "physical enhancements" as a generic dividing line to try to give Kakashi a higher standing ground. Kakashi has Sharingan to take him above his base mode, Jiraiya has Sage mode to take him above his base mode. Both Jiraiya and Kakashi are using enhancements to improve their shinobi abilities, even if they are not 1:1. A quick glance at a dictionary reveals that to enhance is to "intensify or increase in quality, value, power, etc; improve; augment." Sharingan certainly did those things to Kakashi's shinobi abilities.

[xXan]

The sharingan is defenetly a physical enhancement lol. Why? Well its simple, can he see better then a normal human with that eye? I gues the answer is obvious here.

[rell250]

@Rell250: I am not stuck on "physical enhancements" as a generic dividing line to try to give Kakashi a higher standing ground. Kakashi has Sharingan to take him above his base mode, Jiraiya has Sage mode to take him above his base mode. Both Jiraiya and Kakashi are using enhancements to improve their shinobi abilities, even if they are not 1:1. A quick glance at a dictionary reveals that to enhance is to "intensify or increase in quality, value, power, etc; improve; augment." Sharingan certainly did those things to Kakashi's shinobi abilities.

Ok if this is true. Who do you think has the brains to win and use those abilities to the fullest to win between the two? I'm leaning slightly towards Kakashi just because the mans a genius and has plenty of technique and ability to perform the job. Is Jiraiya smart enough to counter the unpredictable Kakashi? Merely just asking everyone is right to their own opinion of course.

[xXan]

Ok if this is true. Who do you think has the brains to win and use those abilities to the fullest to win between the two? I'm leaning slightly towards Kakashi just because the mans a genius and has plenty of technique and ability to perform the job. Is Jiraiya smart enough to counter the unpredictable Kakashi? Merely just asking everyone is right to their own opinion of course.

If not for Kamui i would defenetly give this to JMan 10/10 but considering that broken jutsu i put this somewhere at 6/10 for JMan as Kakashi could defenetly end up 1 shoting JMan with that jutsu. Aside from Kamui there is nothing Kakashi can do to JMan to even put a scratch on him.

[Naruto_Rasengan]

Theres a difference between a "tool" and "enchancement". Kakashi uses his tool with the expertise of the people that they actually belong to Uchihas. Sage Mode enchances your physical body and attacks case closed. No way around it. Kakashi has NO PHYSICAL enhancements. But you know what. Ill let you think your right since Kakashi is such an expertise with his Sharingan that it has to be called physical enchancement lol. Charlie Sheen # winning

How is the Sharingan not a physical enhancement? It's Doujutsu, or eye technique. The Sharingan is a physical mutation that takes place in Uchiha eyes, you cannot deny it. Also, Sage Mode and Sharingan are both considered tools.