Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (8/11/14 - 8/17/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Gintama 506 by Bomber D Rufi

View Poll Results: Who wins?

Voters
142. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kakashi

    49 34.51%
  • Jiraiya

    93 65.49%
Thread Closed
Page 22 of 22 FirstFirst ... 12 20 21 22
Results 316 to 321 of 321

Thread: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

  1. #316
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Vatican City State
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    32,463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by DementedKirby View Post
    Are you serious? You say Jiraiya had to use summons to handle Animal Realm who only uses summons? You're practically admitting that Animal Realm wasn't fighting by itself. Animal Realm used a chameleon to hide from Jiraiya. Yeah, he totally did that on his own. He cornered Jiraiya with a multiplying dog. Yeah, he totally did that on his own. He attacked Jiraiya with a crab, a bull, and a bird. Yeah, he totally did that on his own. Jiraiya had summons, Pain had summons. End of story on the numbers.

    Oh, and as if the Rinnegan - the kekkai genkai of the godly Sage of the Six Paths isn't enough of an advantage for Nagato?
    He did, he summoned the animals and told it what to do. All Jiraiya did was summon Ken and told it to give him time, which it did in its own way.
    Although both had summons, I can recognize that Pain and his summons outnumbered Jiraiya and his summon, but I'm totally ignoring that fact to support Kakashi like many others ignore what Kakashi did to support JIraiya. As I've said, people downplay Kakashi and what he did too much in order to make Jiraiya look better.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, so everything that happens offpanel in the manga never happens? Gaara didn't go into Shukaku Cloak and own the Sound genin? Maki didn't kill Hayate? Orochimaru didn't kill the 4th Kazekage? And that's just examples from the Sound + Sand invasion of Konoha. I could go on and on. In fact, let's make it more relevant to the discussion. Kakashi appears under some rubble while Deva Path stands above him and surrounded by Konoha fodder. Oh wait, I can't assume that Pain took care of all of them because it all happened offpanel. That was probably Chouji who farted and brought the buildings down on everyone.
    It happened, but we don't know how it happened. We can't say Maki killed Hayate using a simple kunai throw or Gaara went back to base form and used Desert Coffin to kill that Sound genin. In a fanfic, sure, but not as manga fact. At least when Kakashi and his backups were down, we can infer Deva used Shinra Tensei because of the countdown (I think) and Asura buying time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    statements are manga facts, until they are proven otherwise by later manga statements.
    Rather, statements are manga facts unless they don't support someone. I've seen Minato supporters deny what Shi said about Raikage's reflexes or speed being comparable to Minato. Plus, statements tend to be wrong and are usually based on opinions; they can true, half true, or false whether or not proven otherwise. Action is far more important than statements; people said Neji would beat Naruto but is that true? Naruto beat Neji, the action itself contradicted the statement made by others. It's similar to people saying Kakashi or Jiraiya will win, it's opinion, not statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    Pain himself said that Naruto pushed him unlike any other before. So, when it comes to fighting Pain, if Pain says that Naruto pushed him unlike any other before, it is the end. imo, even if Kakashi had every piece of intelligence on Pain and the same situation as Naruto, he would not have performed nearly as well.
    That is because Kakashi did not have the benefit that Naruto did. Naruto had Sage Mode, information on Pain, Deva being unable to use his power, and Asura taken out early. Using Pain's statement is, in my opinion, as logically flawed as using Kakashi and Jiraiya's fight with Pain to who's superior. If Kakashi and JIraiya fought the same bodies and Kakashi did worse, then there'd be no debate, but the fact is, Kakashi fought two powerful bodies and did well. Jiraiya fought three bodies, one that had superiority over Jiraiya (ninjutsu absorber) and did very well too. Both Jiraiya and Kakashi until the end never had a lower hand like Naruto did when Deva got his power back.

    Quote Quote:
    In any event, I can't lie that it is bothering me to see people saying Kakashi was not enhanced and using it to look down on Jiraiya for being enhanced with sage mode. His enhancement might be weaker than Sage Mode, but it was an enhancement he was using, thus they were both enhanced. Kakashi has 1000 jutsu to chose from, and other formidable abilities, with much thanks owed to sharingan. So even if Sharingan itself does not compare to sage mode 1:1, it opened up the whole world of jutsu variety for Kakashi. If people are saying an unenhanced Kakashi was fighting two Pains alone, there is a bigger problem than my red text. If people are saying that Kakashi outperformed Naruto against Pain, there is a bigger problem than my red text.
    It's only a bigger problem because it doesn't support what you think. You think Jiraiya did better than Kakashi so you'll say whatever to make Jiraiya look better when the fact is, both did extremely well in their own ways. They're still able to give each other a run for their money and I think even without Kamui, Kakashi could still beat JIraiya. Jiraiya losing to Kakashi is not disgraceful, despite what people think; Kakashi is a great ninja.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    How is saying that Sharingan is an enhancement a low level attempt to make a point? Is it not an enhancement? Is calling Sharingan an enhancement trolling? Sharingan comes with a set of skills and enabled Kakashi to pick up numerous (1000) useful skills over the course of a lifetime. I am not saying that Sharingan and Sage Mode are 1:1, but I am also not naive enough to overlook that Sharingan is an enhancement of Kakashi's shinobi abilities. Even if Kakashi has no physical enhancements like Sage Mode gives, Jiraiya has no doujutsu enhancements like sharingan gives. They each have their own upside.

    How you feel about it compared to sage mode is up to you. Sharingan:
    • Sees chakra/movement/flow
    • Steal jutsu
    • Prediction abilities (aids taijutsu when matched with offensive timing, completes Raikiri/Chidori)
    • Built-in Genjutsu
    • Built-in Genjutsu decoding
    • See through hand seals
    These are abilities you get if you go from "no sharingan" to "sharingan," it is plainly obvious to most people that sharingan is a serious enhancement for a shinobi, otherwise no one would give a damn about them, instead they are very highly sought. If we add in MS, Kakashi can now warp away all types of stuff, etc.
    Sharingan helps one perform better in battles. Sage Mode helps one last longer in battles. Sharingan doesn't make one more invulnerable to attacks or increase one's speed like Sage Mode does. It, as we can agree, enhances combat abilities, but not the abilities of body.

    Thanks to Sage Mode, Jiraiya can move faster and tank more attacks. Sage Mode also gives his jutsu more power and gives him more chakra so he gets less tired. Sharingan is useless if Kakashi can't react fast enough to Jiraiya's enhanced speed since it wouldn't increase Kakashi's speed, just let him see Jiraiya's movements. If it came down to rasengan vs. raikiri, Jiraiya can use Sage Mode to make his rasengan bigger and more powerful than Kakashi's raikiri while Sharingan would just let him predict Jiraiya's movements (he may not predict rasengan getting bigger). If rasengan blocks Kakashi from seeing Jiraiya, he can't use Kamui to take out JIraiya, only rasengan if possible, which takes away more chakra. Sage Mode gives way more benefit to Jiraiya than Sharingan does to Kakashi.



    Anyways, I still see Kakashi winning more categories like taijutsu and genjutsu and ninjutsu than Jiraiya, stamina. If Jiraiya gets into Sage Mode, then his taijutsu may be better, but his ninjutsu will improve as well. With Ma and Pa, genjutsu will be pretty good if Frog Song or any sound genjutsu works.

  2. #317
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DementedKirby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Country
    Puerto Rico
    Age
    30
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    909
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He did, he summoned the animals and told it what to do. All Jiraiya did was summon Ken and told it to give him time, which it did in its own way.
    Although both had summons, I can recognize that Pain and his summons outnumbered Jiraiya and his summon, but I'm totally ignoring that fact to support Kakashi like many others ignore what Kakashi did to support JIraiya. As I've said, people downplay Kakashi and what he did too much in order to make Jiraiya look better.
    I totally agree. I've been saying it all the time. Their skills against one another cannot be decided by or compared to their battle with Pain. It's two totally different things. For one thing, all Pain had to concentrate on against Jiraiya was Jiraiya. When Kakashi fought Deva Path and then Asura Path, Nagato was invading Konoha, thus he had his other 4 realms doing other things. If anything, it's a bad example to use their fight against Pain to compare them. I stood clear from that the first time I commented in this thread. I actually supported Jiraiya by comparing him directly to Kakashi without taking things away from Kakashi to make Jiraiya better. I don't need to take things away from Kakashi to make Jiraiya look better. I said that even with all Kakashi has going for him, I can't see him defeat Jiraiya.

  3. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  4. #318
    Registered User 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member jdw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    It is impossible to troll Yondaime. Get over it.
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,820
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    So, M3J, I will ask you plainly, do you think that if Kakashi and his dogs replaced Naruto and his toads at the outset of the Pain fight, with Deva still having just finished his village destroying Shinra Tensei, that kakashi would have performed as well as Naruto, or better, with the same information and Katsuyu in his pocket?
    Last edited by jdw; July 17, 2011 at 12:34 PM.

    Naruto War Tracker: 2 days of combat, 63 chapters, 40,000 alliance soldiers lost (50%). Significant alliance characters lost: 0

  5. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  6. #319
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,812
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    statements are manga facts, until they are proven otherwise by later manga statements.
    Of if they are proven otherwise by simple observations in the manga. Statements don't always need to be made to prove another statement wrong, there are other forms of evidence.

    Case and point: Minato made it sound like Tobi kicked his ass and "saw through everything he did". Yet in the actual fight, Tobi was the one getting his ass kicked.

    Another one: Itachi saying himself, Kisame and back-up from Akatsuki wouldn't be able to take down Jiraiya. Does anyone really think Itachi, Kisame, and Sasori can't defeat Jiraiya in a 3 vs. 1 battle?
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  7. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  8. #320
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Vatican City State
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    32,463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    Even though Kamui is a pretty wicked jutsu, Kakashi only has 2 shots (maybe 3) at best with it and then he's toast. We already saw what happened to him "lately" after using it once, he had problems running for a short time. While he can end up using it offensively and thus Jiraiya will have major trouble defending himself (most likely he'll get killed given Kakashi's improved usage of it), the opposite might be true also. Against Sasuke Kakashi had to use Kamui defensively, if Jiraiya can force him to use Kamui for defence, Kakashi will tire extremely quickly. And we all know like I said above what happens when Kakashi has used it once, he becomes vulnerable for a short period of time. A ninja of Jiraiya's caliber would definitely finish him off in that amount of time.

    Overall it's a very tight match like many have already said. I don't feel like repeating so many arguments, and arguing now is pretty pointless too since the match is closing in little over an hour But it basically comes down to this: If Kakashi uses Kamui for offence, he has a high chance of instantly killing Jiraiya. If he's forced by Jiraiya to use Kamui for defence, Kakashi is as good as dead. Without using Kamui Kakashi would struggle to defeat Jiraiya IMO.
    The problem is, JIraiya doesn't have fast oneshot jutsu that could kill Kakashi like Susano'o's arrows. Kakashi can dodge or use a jutsu to counter JIraiya's. If Kakashi is given enough time to prep his Kamui, he won't weaken the way he did against Sasuke.

    Even after using a raikiri or two and kage bunshin, Kakashi was still able to pop out two Kamui, so the chakra isn't as major an issue IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    You may


    Overall I think Kakashi without Kamui would give Jiraiya a challenge, but Jiraiya is overall superior. To get into Sage Mode would be easier than against Pain too, as all he'd have to do is summon a giant toad or two and mess around for a bit while getting into Sage Mode. Kakashi has no means of bombarding Jiraiya with jutsu to prevent him from entering Sage Mode like Kakuzu and Sasuke sort of had. Even without Sage Mode Jiraiya would win IMO, again this is IF Kakashi didn't use Kamui. But Kamui is a part of Kakashi's power, and as such making him use it is only fair given how insanely awesome the jutsu is.
    To be honest though, it was easy for him to get into Sage Mode because Animal Realm used summons that Ken could block or dodge against. Kakashi could just run up to the frog and jump on it and get to Jiraiya or even use Kamui when Jiraiya would least expect it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    So, M3J, I will ask you plainly, do you think that if Kakashi and his dogs replaced Naruto and his toads at the outset of the Pain fight, with Deva still having just finished his village destroying Shinra Tensei, that kakashi would have performed as well as Naruto, or better, with the same information and Katsuyu in his pocket?
    We both agree on this: Kakashi would not have been able to take on all six bodies on his own. Two bodies pressured Kakashi, but six would be overkill. If Kakashi had Sage Mode as well, it's a possible chance, but even with Sage Mode Naruto won because Nagato was keeping Naruto alive and Kyuubi helped Naruto. I never said Naruto wasn't phenomenal, I always thought Naruto was pretty awesome against Pain, but he, Jiraiya, and Kakashi are in different situations. If it makes you feel better, I think Kakashi would have done the worst out of Jiraiya, Naruto, and himself against all six bodies. Kakashi does not have the proper abilities to take on all six paths by himself like Naruto and Jiraiya do, but Kakashi does have some proper abilities to take on Jiraiya and win, if not last long enough to give JIraiya a run for his money.

  9. Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked this post
  10. #321
    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Country
    Romania
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    13,698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Kakashi vs Jiraiya

    Jiraiya, the great Sage of the Icha Icha series, takes this win in a very convincing manner, showing Kakashi that he's the best in the field

Thread Closed
Page 22 of 22 FirstFirst ... 12 20 21 22

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts