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Although both had summons, I can recognize that Pain and his summons outnumbered Jiraiya and his summon, but I'm totally ignoring that fact to support Kakashi like many others ignore what Kakashi did to support JIraiya. As I've said, people downplay Kakashi and what he did too much in order to make Jiraiya look better.
It happened, but we don't know how it happened. We can't say Maki killed Hayate using a simple kunai throw or Gaara went back to base form and used Desert Coffin to kill that Sound genin. In a fanfic, sure, but not as manga fact. At least when Kakashi and his backups were down, we can infer Deva used Shinra Tensei because of the countdown (I think) and Asura buying time.Quote:
It's only a bigger problem because it doesn't support what you think. You think Jiraiya did better than Kakashi so you'll say whatever to make Jiraiya look better when the fact is, both did extremely well in their own ways. They're still able to give each other a run for their money and I think even without Kamui, Kakashi could still beat JIraiya. Jiraiya losing to Kakashi is not disgraceful, despite what people think; Kakashi is a great ninja.Quote:
Thanks to Sage Mode, Jiraiya can move faster and tank more attacks. Sage Mode also gives his jutsu more power and gives him more chakra so he gets less tired. Sharingan is useless if Kakashi can't react fast enough to Jiraiya's enhanced speed since it wouldn't increase Kakashi's speed, just let him see Jiraiya's movements. If it came down to rasengan vs. raikiri, Jiraiya can use Sage Mode to make his rasengan bigger and more powerful than Kakashi's raikiri while Sharingan would just let him predict Jiraiya's movements (he may not predict rasengan getting bigger). If rasengan blocks Kakashi from seeing Jiraiya, he can't use Kamui to take out JIraiya, only rasengan if possible, which takes away more chakra. Sage Mode gives way more benefit to Jiraiya than Sharingan does to Kakashi.
Anyways, I still see Kakashi winning more categories like taijutsu and genjutsu and ninjutsu than Jiraiya, stamina. If Jiraiya gets into Sage Mode, then his taijutsu may be better, but his ninjutsu will improve as well. With Ma and Pa, genjutsu will be pretty good if Frog Song or any sound genjutsu works.
first time I commented in this thread. I actually supported Jiraiya by comparing him directly to Kakashi without taking things away from Kakashi to make Jiraiya better. I don't need to take things away from Kakashi to make Jiraiya look better. I said that even with all Kakashi has going for him, I can't see him defeat Jiraiya.
So, M3J, I will ask you plainly, do you think that if Kakashi and his dogs replaced Naruto and his toads at the outset of the Pain fight, with Deva still having just finished his village destroying Shinra Tensei, that kakashi would have performed as well as Naruto, or better, with the same information and Katsuyu in his pocket?
Last edited by jdw; July 17, 2011 at 12:34 PM.
Case and point: Minato made it sound like Tobi kicked his ass and "saw through everything he did". Yet in the actual fight, Tobi was the one getting his ass kicked.
Another one: Itachi saying himself, Kisame and back-up from Akatsuki wouldn't be able to take down Jiraiya. Does anyone really think Itachi, Kisame, and Sasori can't defeat Jiraiya in a 3 vs. 1 battle?
Even after using a raikiri or two and kage bunshin, Kakashi was still able to pop out two Kamui, so the chakra isn't as major an issue IMO.
Jiraiya, the great Sage of the Icha Icha series, takes this win in a very convincing manner, showing Kakashi that he's the best in the field