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View Poll Results: Are they good or bad guys?

Voters
44. You may not vote on this poll
  • Ginjou's good; Tsukishima's bad

    11 25.00%
  • Ginjou's bad; Tsukishima's good

    6 13.64%
  • Both are good

    8 18.18%
  • Both are bad

    19 43.18%
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Thread: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Questionable Antagonists

  1. #1
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted THM Nindo's Avatar
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    Ginjou and Tsukishima : Questionable Antagonists

    Since the beginning of the arc, those two have been introduced as the more powerful of the Fullbringer group, and there are still a lot of mystery surrounding them.

    The most important question right now is to figure out who's good and who's bad.

    So, what do you think?

    --------------------------------------

    Ginjou's good; Tsukishima's bad

    This is the one that has been shown right now in the manga by Kubo.
    This is what Kubo wants us to believe right now.

    If there's no twist, that's the one to go with.


    Ginjou's bad; Tsukishima's good

    Some people are suggesting that Tsukishima might actually be a good guy.
    Some even goes as far as to suggest that he's actually Ichigo's real cousin and friend.

    What if Ginjou was the one playing with Ichigo's head and was pushing him?
    Is it possible for Tsukishima to be a good guy?

    Hard to believe with his troll face, but that would be an interesting twist.

    And there are some strange lines like when Yukio asked Ginjou if it was "time for them to remember".
    All doesn't seem as simple as it looks...


    Both are good

    My favorite theory so far.

    What if Ginjou and Tsukishima are working together to bring back Ichigo's power.
    Maybe they know that Ichigo will never go all out unless he needs to protect people.

    So, maybe this "memory" thingy is all an act, with Tsukishima as the bad guy, to force Ichigo to go all out to defend his friends.

    Tsukishima is basically pushing Ichigo to his limits, and Ginjou is the one that tells him what to do.

    I could see that as a really good twist.
    Although, having them working together doesn't automatically means that they are good guys...


    Both are bad

    There's also the possibility that both of them are bad.
    The reason behind Ginjou "helping" Ichigo is fishy as hell.

    They want to give him back his Shinigami power, but they first need to give him fullbring power for that.
    And they are doing that so that they can give him all of theirs power, so that they revert and go back to being normal human.

    That just doesn't make sense.
    There's obviously something behind that.

    Does Ginjou intends to bring forth Ichigo's power, so that he can stole it from him afterwards?
    What is Tsukishima's intention? Are they the same?

    Are they both fighting to "possess" Ichigo because they seek his power?
    Are they simply two bad guys that don't want to share?

    Or are they working together to push Ichigo to his limit by fighting Tsukishima to protect his friends, with the intention of using him once he's getting his power back.


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    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
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  2. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Bhoot's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjou/Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Well I chose the both is good option .
    Tsukishima was seriously surprise by Ichi's hitting him . That means he wasn't half expecting to get hurt [even though Orihime can heal him] . So in my mind , Ginjou just asked him as a favour to get hit as to have Ichi learn more . The only thing thats bugging me is how do Urahara and Isshin come into this .

  3. #3
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted THM Nindo's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjou/Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Yeah, I'm also pretty sure that they are working together.
    That would make too much of a good twist not to use it.

    Although, I'm still uncertain as if they are both good or both bad.

    Are they really working to help Ichigo get his shinigami power back? Yes, it seems so.
    But for what purpose?

    To me, the whole "Once you have your power back, we will give you ours power so that we can go back to being normal human" stuff sounds like BS.
    There's something else that they are plotting, I'm almost sure.

    So... both good or both bad?
    I can't decide yet.

    But, unless Urahara is the bad guy (and it doesn't look like that since he's working with Isshin), we still need a bad guy for the next arcs, so it could definitely be them.

    --------

    I'll go with "Both are good" for now.

    I think that Tsukishima will serve as the "bad guy" for the remaining of the Fullbring arc, when it will be reveal in the end that he was working with Ginjou to help Ichigo to get back his power.

    After that... I suspect that we are going to focus more on Urahara and what he's planning.
    I can't really see Urahara as being a bad guy right now since he's working with Isshin, but we still don't know who's the third Shinigami with them...
    Last edited by THM Nindo; July 07, 2011 at 03:34 PM.


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  4. #4
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Tsukishima has the power to alter people's memories to make them believe in situations as he deems fit. It's as close to making an illusion into reality as one can get without actually creating matter or altering time.

    You know who else was big on illusions? Aizen.

    Tsukihishima is Aizen's bankai incarnated.

    ...Aaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiizzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...

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  6. #5
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    This is the theory I wrote in the chapter discussion thread (although not a quote lol)

    First and foremost tsukishima's actions make no sense whatsoever. There is no direction to be seen in them. At best he has shown interest in ichigo developing his powers and he even appeared to want to influence them. He did appear to actually want ichigo's powers but that is kinda weird. The one other thing that can be concluded from tsukishima's actions is that he is a twisted fuck who likes to torture people. Everything he has done so far seems to serve no other purpose otherwise.

    Now, ginjo mentioned there was another shinigami human around and tsukishima killed him. I get the impression this might not be entirely true. A while back we saw a misterious shinigami alongside ishin and urahara and I get the impression that shinigami is the same ginjo talked about. However if that is the case then ginjo's story is clearly not true even if he himself believes so.

    The interesting bit about tsukishima's ability is that we can never really know exactly what memories are real and which aren't. Ginji did not even know what ability tsukishima had to begin with which means he could have been exposed to it without him knowing it. In that regard, what if the memory about tsukishima betraying them is fake? In that regard this whole thing could be a ploy to make ichigo regain his powers faster. Ginjo made it clear he was a bit of a cliche villain so tsukishima took the role for the purpose of developing ichigo's powers. He would basically be risking his life for the sake of ichigo as ichigo could indeed kill him as he keeps putting pressure on ichigo.

    If that is the case then tsukishima perhaps did not manipulate everyone's memories to insert himself in but rather to undo a change he made earlier.

    We also saw ishin and urahara on their way somewhere a while back. IMO they are actually heading towards where ichigo is currently fighting. urahara talked about ichigo losing his future or something. What future was he talking about? Ideally a parent wants his son to live a long happy live where he can do what he wants to do. In this regard I think by robbing ichigo of his future he meant putting him on a life where he has to continually fight. I daresay ishin would have prefered ichigo to not spend his life on the battlefield at least.

    more importantly, there is one final step before ichigo regains his shinigami powers. he needs to awake them and finally fuse them with his fullbring apparently. As we saw earlier the mysterious shinigami who I theorized was the shinigami human ginjo talked about placed his reiatsu in a bundle of light. Later on we saw ishin's engetsu with a weird appearance. In this regard I think it is a safe bet that ishin's engetsu was imbued with the mysterious shinigami's engetsu. Why do such a thing though? Logically speaking the mysterious shinigami's power would be similar to ichigo's if he is also a shinigami human. IMO ishin intends to strike ichigo's heart with his reiatsu imbued engetsu in order for the final step to be completed and ichigo to regain his powers.

  7. #6
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Does it really need a side for both? I mean, Tsukishima doesn't kill anyone, only makes them his friends and is shady, but so far there is absolutely no information that could lead to his motives so for the time being, he is bad but could have his personal agenda.

    Ginjo is who everyone should be thinking about, because he is not good or bad, he has been constantly shown as only caring about Ichigo developing power and hates Tsukishima, for all we know, Ginjo hates Tsukishima so hard that he is pushing Ichigo to recover his powers faster and get rid of Tsukishima.

  8. #7
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    There's a good post by Syphin in chapter discussion thread about Kuugo affecting Ichigo and forcing Tsukishima=bad impression, read it:

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post2528713

  9. #8
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ca12nag3's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Now, ginjo mentioned there was another shinigami human around and tsukishima killed him. I get the impression this might not be entirely true. A while back we saw a misterious shinigami alongside ishin and urahara and I get the impression that shinigami is the same ginjo talked about. However if that is the case then ginjo's story is clearly not true even if he himself believes so.
    .
    My alt theory on events.

    There is also an alternative, that Tsukishima indeed killed that shimigami but out of self-defense. Ginjo could just have told a half truth. Ichigo would immediately have asked why if he had said it was self-defense.

    Shinigami are not that trustworthy, especially prior to Ichigo. They made sure the Quincy got massacred. They even have laws that say its forbidden to pass your powers onto humans like Rukia did (read vol 1). So its not unlikely that this shinigami was under orders to kill the fullbringers once he gained their trust.
    In turn Tsukishima killed him so its self-defense.

    When all this occurred they had to get away to avoid being killed by SS and they used mind-altering abilities of Tsukishima to erase their pasts and start anew.

    Im not sure if Urahara and Isshin are fully aware of all this in my theory but lets say Isshin helped Tsukishima get away. Because hes his nephew.

    Time passes and there is arguement between Ginjo and Tsukishima, Tsukishima leaves Xcution and Ginjo takes up leadership. Now Ginjo goes after power and since they knew about Ichigo and his powerloss they hunt him down and train him to eventualy kill him so Ginjo can steal his powers.

    Why do i say the steal powers thing, well if you see Ishida fighting Tsukishima, his powers are beyond what Ishida expected most likely Tsukishima gained the shinigami powers of the shinigami he killed.

    Now Tsukishima joins the show but hes too late Ginjo already groomed Ichigo and has him under his wing to train, Tsukishima alone cannot take on all of Xcution so he cuts everyone Ichigo knows so they remember their pasts. Hes convinced he can make his cousin understand reason over madness, also Ginjo being close to Ichigo all the time he cannot get close to him long enough to talk.

    Finaly Tsukishima lures Ichigo to their family house and wants Ichigo to take a breath and understand whats going on and get him away from Ginjo, also Tsukishima thinks he can talk Ginjo out of his plans.

    In this case Tsukishima is the goodguy and Ginjo the badguy ^^

  10. #9
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    You make it sound like shinigami killed the quincy for fun lol, which is obviously not the case. The quincy were killed because their activities threatened the very fabric of which the world is made, both the human and SS world could have been destroyed. Had the quincy been a little more reasonable there would not have been a need for SS to go that far. And even the not giving shinigami powers to humans bit is reasonably IMO. Why would they want that to be an option every time a shinigami goes to the human world? Even then, the procedure to give powers to a human is not exactly fool-proof, even rukia mentioned ichigo might just not survived.

    I also doubt the shinigami-human in question had any orders of the sort from SS. First of all, it is extremely unlikely a shinigami human would work for SS directly. How would that happen? A shinigami human occurance is much more likely to accur in the human world and a human going to SS is not exactly a likely event as humans cannot normally set foot there.

  11. #10
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    You make it sound like shinigami killed the quincy for fun lol, which is obviously not the case. The quincy were killed because their activities threatened the very fabric of which the world is made, both the human and SS world could have been destroyed. Had the quincy been a little more reasonable there would not have been a need for SS to go that far. And even the not giving shinigami powers to humans bit is reasonably IMO. Why would they want that to be an option every time a shinigami goes to the human world? Even then, the procedure to give powers to a human is not exactly fool-proof, even rukia mentioned ichigo might just not survived.

    I also doubt the shinigami-human in question had any orders of the sort from SS. First of all, it is extremely unlikely a shinigami human would work for SS directly. How would that happen? A shinigami human occurance is much more likely to accur in the human world and a human going to SS is not exactly a likely event as humans cannot normally set foot there.
    I didnt say it was for fun, but so far SS didnt want to listen to the Quincy either. So both sides were pigheaded and the endresult was a massacre. Still SS sees itself as the guardians of power in these 3 realms *soul-world,Human-world,hollow-world*. They maintain balance and isnt it obvious that Fullbringers are another faction with power?

    The factor that gives power, exactly so why is Ishida totally overcome by Tsukishima? Not just his fullbring but his overall power. Im just giving a explanation as to where it would come from.

    Didnt Ichigo get the *used before* shinigami-rep badge from the capt? So obviously a shinigami-human was working for SS?
    Last edited by ca12nag3; July 11, 2011 at 05:25 PM.

  12. #11
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted THM Nindo's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by ca12nag3 View Post
    I didnt say it was for fun, but so far SS didnt want to listen to the Quincy either. So both sides were pigheaded and the endresult was a massacre. Still SS sees itself as the guardians of power in these 3 realms *soul-world,Human-world,hollow-world*. They maintain balance and isnt it obvious that Fullbringers are another faction with power?

    The factor that gives power, exactly so why is Ishida totally overcome by Tsukishima? Not just his fullbring but his overall power. Im just giving a explanation as to where it would come from.

    Didnt Ichigo get the *used before* shinigami-rep badge from the capt? So obviously a shinigami-human was working for SS?
    I found the page where we hear about his receiving the badge the first time:
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-636-13...apter-182.html

    There's no mention of another guy before him, but I was also under the impression that there was someone before him, so it might have been mentionned somewhere else...

    In any casel, didn't Ginjou had a susbtitue badge too?
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-58301-...apter-424.html

    I was under the impression that he was the "other substitute shinigami" that worked for SS before Ichigo.

    Come to think of it, this arc is called "The lost substitute shinigami arc", right?

    So, it might be really important that Ginjou was a Substitute Shinigami before.

    I also think that Ishida will be very important in this arc.
    He's the only one of his friends who hasn't turn against him, and he seems to have seen something that other didn't regarding the badge: http://www.mangareader.net/94-636-14...apter-182.html

    In any case, if we consider that Ginjou was a Substitute Shinigami too, doesn't that mean that he's a good guy? Or was at some point at least?
    Last edited by THM Nindo; July 11, 2011 at 05:57 PM.


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  13. #12
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ca12nag3's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by THM Nindo View Post
    I found the page where we hear about his receiving the badge the first time:
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-636-13...apter-182.html

    There's no mention of another guy before him, but I was also under the impression that there was someone before him, so it might have been mentionned somewhere else...

    In any casel, didn't Ginjou had a susbtitue badge too?
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-58301-...apter-424.html

    I was under the impression that he was the "other substitute shinigami" that worked for SS before Ichigo.

    Come to think of it, this arc is called "The lost substitute shinigami arc", right?

    So, it might be really important that Ginjou was a Substitute Shinigami before.

    I also think that Ishida will be very important in this arc.
    He's the only one of his friends who hasn't turn against him, and he seems to have seen something that other didn't regarding the badge: http://www.mangareader.net/94-636-14...apter-182.html

    In any case, if we consider that Ginjou was a Substitute Shinigami too, doesn't that mean that he's a good guy? Or was at some point at least?
    Didnt he just say *we have rules for acting shinigami* acting shinigami = human-shinigami... So they had to deal with this before.

  14. #13
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted THM Nindo's Avatar
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by ca12nag3 View Post
    Didnt he just say *we have rules for acting shinigami* acting shinigami = human-shinigami... So they had to deal with this before.
    Lol, yeah.
    I know that they were people before him, since he's saying that this is a tradition.

    What I was saying is that nobody talked specifically about another Substitute shinigami, like "Ichigo, you're the second Substitute Shinigami to whom I give a badge", or something like that.


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    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by THM Nindo View Post
    Lol, yeah.
    I know that they were people before him, since he's saying that this is a tradition.

    What I was saying is that nobody talked specifically about another Substitute shinigami, like "Ichigo, you're the second Substitute Shinigami to whom I give a badge", or something like that.
    What im refering to in general is possibilities of things. And they are within the realm of likely. So i dont realy pin myself to them. As for Tsukishima he killed a sub shinigami. We just dont know the situation behind it. And it doesnt make him a badguy just because he did. Kenpachi killed a captain and took his place no? So its not like killing someone automaticaly marks you as bad.

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    Re: Ginjou and Tsukishima : Good or bad guys?

    But do you guys think that Ginjou was a Substitute shinigami?
    He had a badge, so it would make sense.

    I wonder if he's the only one, of if the whole Fullbringer group were Sub Shinigami.

    Wouldn't that make them good guys?
    Unless they turned bad for some reasons...


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    The question now is : which of those two loves, is the true one?!
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