Madara vs Itachi

[Lelo]

IMO Itachi was the greatest Uchiha to ever live. He could have become the most powerful shinobi if he wasnt sick and going blind. But as for who wins this, lets see. Inzagi/Space-time jutsu vs Susanoo/King of Genjutsu????? If Itachi is sick he doesnt have a chance. As much as I hate to say this, Itachi wont win, he wont be able to use his jutsus properly and his eye sight is just horrible. Keeping up with Sasuke was one thing but he wouldnt stand a chance against S/T jutsus. If he's 100% he would probably win. Itachi said it himself when he was talking to Sasuke.

what I want to know is why Madara doesnt have EMS??? All this talk about EMS and its soo powerful and u will never go blind, yet Madara doesnt use any MS jutsus. What happened??? Did he lose it, or did someone takes his eyes or is that the real Madara???? Whos knows. But if Madara has EMS and S/T jutsus he would be the ultimate power. Maybe thats it, Kishi thought that if he gave Madara both it would be too much

LOL I was going to click Madara in the voting polls but I just couldnt do it. Itachi is my favorite character in Naruto and everything else. I might have to be a fanboy and vote for him. But then again that wouldnt be fair. Ohh wait, the Sasuke vs Jiraiya wasnt fair either soo maybe Ill vote for Itachi

[ninjabot]

Had to give it to Madara. I certainly think Itachi stands one of the better chances against him, but I don't think he can hit him hard enough, soon enough to make his low stamina a non-issue. There's also some points made in earlier posts that I'd like to address:

"Madara was afraid of Itachi, so that's testament to which one would really win!"

No, we can't really say that. For all we know he was only afraid of the fact that if he did something Itachi didn't approve of he'd run back to Konoha, tell them the infamous Madara Uchiha was still alive, and then he'd have to wait another decade-and-a-half while fleeing again. It doesn't necessarily have to mean "Drat! My power level is just below 9000 while Itachi's is clearly higher!"

"You can't say that Madara can escape Tsukiyomi! Sasuke only did it because Itachi was holding back!"

Again, that's not entirely true. While he was holding back, he still fought as hard as was needed to push Sasuke to his limits. Not to mention holding back just means "He didn't kill him". It doesn't necessarily mean he fought him with kiddie gloves. Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu were every bit as powerful as they always were. That's why Itachi used them in specific ways. He chased Sasuke with Amaterasu long enough to give him time to think up an exit strategy. He hit him with Tsukiyomi and used a Genjutsu that still would have allowed him to escape (I.E., ripping out one eye instead of stabbing him over and over for 3 days straight like he did to Kakashi). Though come to think of it, Itachi's so powerful with Tsukiyomi he likely could have made an illusion where he tickled Sasuke with feathers for 3 days straight and it would've had the same mental strain...

Anyway, Madara has everything it takes to escape Tsukiyomi and, unlike other ninja that haven't shown themselves escaping Genjutsu but we know have access to skills that let them escape Genjutsu, Madara has a Sharingan and Uchiha blood which is stated to be the prerequisites for escaping Tsukiyomi. Being powerful enough to control a Jinchuuriki long-term, strong enough to control the damn Kyuubi, and strong enough to force Konan to reveal her secrets (okay, she was dying, but still impressive) is testament to Madara's Genjutsu expertise.

Like others have said, I'm of the opinion Madara'd just tire him out. He may not know Itachi's repertoire, but he DOES know what a Mangekyou Sharingan is capable of (as he's had it aswell as EMS), so the instant he realizes his opponent has MS he should be able to think up potential counters right off the bat.

[En Yang Ji]

How is Madara going to concentrate enough to break Tsukuyomi, when he has to deal with unbearable pain?

[ninjabot]

The actual pain dealt from Tsukiyomi likely depends on the victim's willpower and ability to endure not physical pain, but mental strain since it's just illusion. Then again if physical endurace came into account remember that Madara can pinch off his limbs and throw them at people without feeling any real pain. He also took a Rasengan to the back and, while he did scream in pain, got up immediately after.

If there's anything that would make it hard for Madara to escape, it'd likely be the power of the Genjutsu itself, not the pain it induces, as he's displayed an absurd pain threshhold thusfar.

[En Yang Ji]

Madara has a abnormal body just like Orochimaru, but even with his abnormal body all it took was one punch from Tsunade to take him out of the battle.

Jiraiya who also lost arm without showing any signs of pain. Felt pain from being knocked into the ground.

[M3J]

The actual pain dealt from Tsukiyomi likely depends on the victim's willpower and ability to endure not physical pain, but mental strain since it's just illusion. Then again if physical endurace came into account remember that Madara can pinch off his limbs and throw them at people without feeling any real pain. He also took a Rasengan to the back and, while he did scream in pain, got up immediately after.

If there's anything that would make it hard for Madara to escape, it'd likely be the power of the Genjutsu itself, not the pain it induces, as he's displayed an absurd pain threshhold thusfar.

I think it mostly depends on the kind of Tsukuyomi Itachi uses. If he uses the torture kind like on Kakashi, Tobi will feel some damage and likely won't have a chance to break out. If the Tsukuyomi's like the one Itachi used on Sasuke in their last fight, then Tobi has a chance of breaking out without getting any mental damage (from what we saw of Sasuke after he broke out), though he may get a bit exhausted. Tobi can handle physical pain, but can he handle mental pain?

[ninjabot]

Well, the difference with those two examples is that Jiraiya was using his own body, which was far more resistant to pain and injury thanks to Sage Mode, and Orochimaru was using his own body, which is naturally resistant to pain and injury. Madara however is using a Frankenstein body made up of Zetsu pieces. Infact, we don't even know what percentage of his body is his real body, so his pain could very well be minimal thanks to the fact that certain parts of his body aren't really... well, his.

He didn't mutter a scream after ripping his arm off at all, so we atleast know any pain done to his arm will be inconsequential. Again, this is all assuming that physical pain threshhold has anything to do with how much pain someone hit with Tsukiyomi can endure.

EDIT: As for the ease of escaping the Tsukiyomi that Itachi used against Sasuke, I honestly don't know how easy it'd be to have a friggin' eye ripped out, so the only difference between the pain Kakashi felt and Sasuke felt is that one lasted for 3 days. I mean, you guys act like he was holding his hand and giving him papercuts on his fingers. He ripped out his EYE.

Come to think about it... we havn't the slightest clue how long Sasuke was inside that Tsukiyomi illusion, do we? That eye gouging could've lasted hours in real time, and seconds inside the illusion.

As for Madara enduring mental strain... I think it's safe to say his chakra reserve dwarf's Sasuke's. Sasuke had to tap into CS2 to break the Tsukiyomi if I remember correctly (unless he was only in CS2 during the illusion, and not in real time)... but Madara wouldn't need to thanks to naturally having a big enough chakra reserve to "push" the illusion back. Not to mention I think the Tsukiyomi could possibly be a constant chakra drain. I sincerely doubt Itachi can keep pumping a large amount of chakra into trying to drive home the Tsukiyomi.

I mean, if he needed to extend it long enough to finally break Madara's mind, how much chakra will he have burned before reaching that point?

[Rikudou King]

Itachi doesn't have the advantage that Kakashi's team, Minato, and Konan did. Konan had over a decade's worth of knowledge on Tobi and his jutsu as well as the preparation, Minato had Hiraishin to bail him out (like always), and Tobi was playing with Kakashi and Yamato. Itachi doesn't have any such benefits, so I'm actually doubting if he can injure or figure out Tobi's intangibility before it's too late. Fuu and Torune had information on Tobi beforehand, if I recall. Plus, Itachi can't really use a lot of clones otherwise it'd tire out his chakra.

From the way they spoke, I don't think Fuu and Torune had much information on Madara. All they seem to know was that he could phase, which Itachi should have no trouble discovering right off the bat too. After learning that, he'll be in the exact same position as they were and should be able to figure out the rest just as fast. Kakashi and Yamato also only knew that he could phase, yet were still able to come to the right conclusion. So Itachi learning that he has to hit Madara the moment he goes solid should be an easy thing to do. And Konan was brought up to point out how she was able to react and activate an attack before Madara could warp her. With Itachi having far better reflexes, he should be able to do likewise and activate a technique the moment Madara attempts to warp him, especially considering his speed at preforming hand seal has already been shown to be fast enough to catch even the Sharingan off guard.

[M3J]

Kakashi was repeatedly being stabbed by Itachi's swords for three days, that's far worse than Sasuke having his eyes ripped out. Plus, it could have been real time inside Tsukuyomi, like everything looked real instead of weird like with Kakashi or when Sasuke got Tsukuyomi first few times in Part I. Sasuke got one pain, Kakashi got repeated pain with sharp objects poking him everywhere.

How can Tobi do that? He has to be ready for Tsukuyomi since it can happen at any time. Itachi never gave any sign of using Tsukuyomi until it was too late; only time he ever made it obvious he was using MS was when he used Amaterasu. We don't know how strong Tobi's Sharingan is after years and damage from Hashirama's fight, as he himself said he was a former shell of himself and was severely weakened.

---------- Post added at 02:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 AM ----------

From the way they spoke, I don't think Fuu and Torune had much information on Madara. All they seem to know was that he could phase, which Itachi should have no trouble discovering right off the bat too. After learning that, he'll be in the exact same position as they were and should be able to figure out the rest just as fast. Kakashi and Yamato also only knew that he could phase, yet were still able to come to the right conclusion. So Itachi learning that he has to hit Madara the moment he goes solid should be an easy thing to do. And Konan was brought up to point out how she was able to react and activate an attack before Madara could warp her. With Itachi having far better reflexes, he should be able to do likewise and activate a technique the moment Madara attempts to warp him, especially considering his speed at preforming hand seal has already been shown to be fast enough to catch even the Sharingan off guard.

Weren't they told about Tobi's ability to use space/time ninjutsu? Anyway, it took trial and error for Minato, Kakashi, Yamato, Fuu, and Torune to learn more about Tobi to get a hit on them. Tobi will not give Itachi any mercy, who doesn't have a partner or space/time ninjutsu, so it will be more difficult for Itachi to figure it out in time. But I agree that if Itachi phases through Tobi, he'll realize Tobi needs to be solid to hit and plan for that moment, but Tobi can instantly go intangible or hold it for a while. He tricked Fuu and Torune into attacking him.

[Rikudou King]

Weren't they told about Tobi's ability to use space/time ninjutsu? Anyway, it took trial and error for Minato, Kakashi, Yamato, Fuu, and Torune to learn more about Tobi to get a hit on them. Tobi will not give Itachi any mercy, who doesn't have a partner or space/time ninjutsu, so it will be more difficult for Itachi to figure it out in time. But I agree that if Itachi phases through Tobi, he'll realize Tobi needs to be solid to hit and plan for that moment, but Tobi can instantly go intangible or hold it for a while. He tricked Fuu and Torune into attacking him.

Possibly, I do not know. Fuu seemed surprised by it. With his crow clone, Itachi can easily create himself a partner who can use all of his own abilities and prove a distraction once defeated. Itachi shouldn't have to get close to Madara to figure it out. He has plenty of long range ninjutsus and about a hundred or so shurikens available to attack from a distance in order to figure things out. Not to mention Amaterasu for when he discovers the solid issue and tricks Madara into trying to touch him.

[M3J]

Itachi can't use Amaterasu instantly though, not without wasting extra chakra anyway. Like Sasuke, Tobi can try to get out of the way if he sees Itachi try to use Amaterasu.

Wouldn't Tobi know that though? I mean, he knew where Minato Hiraishin'ed to, he knew he was gonna be rasengan'd from the behind by Naruto, and he knew where Minato and Kushina were (though that's still murky). Kinda hard to believe Tobi can get tricked with a bunshin, but even then, Itachi's bunshin is just as dangerous. If Tobi isn't quick enough though, Itachi should be able to figure out the whole phasin thing and even possibly space/time ninjutsu.

The problem with long range attacks is that Tobi can avoid them all without really going intangible. I think he only does that for attacks that he can't dodge fast enough (though he probably let Naruto and his team phase through him for the lulz). But Tobi's arrogant, he probably thinks he can win even if Itachi knows about warping and space/time ninjutsu, though I find it hard to disagree with that.

[ninjabot]

Kakashi was repeatedly being stabbed by Itachi's swords for three days, that's far worse than Sasuke having his eyes ripped out. Plus, it could have been real time inside Tsukuyomi, like everything looked real instead of weird like with Kakashi or when Sasuke got Tsukuyomi first few times in Part I. Sasuke got one pain, Kakashi got repeated pain with sharp objects poking him everywhere.

But can you prove that's a greater mental strain, not physical? Again, we were being shown Tsukiyomi from Itachi's point of view when he hit Kakashi with it, that's why it was all freaky looking. When it was used on Sasuke it was done in a way so that we (the reader) wouldn't know it was Tsukiyomi until Sasuke actually breaks it, aswell as to truly fool Sasuke into thinking that he wanted his eyes. It was as if it was Sasuke's vision we were seeing. It was the only way to show the Tsukiyomi broken by Sasuke (showing the world around him fall apart). Infact, the simple fact that we do indeed see the weird inverted colors around Sasuke fall apart means that he was indeed inside the mental dimension where Itachi controls space and time. Now, when he used Tsukiyomi against Kakashi there was no need to hide what the dimension looked like. It's even possible Itachi intentionally allowed Kakashi to see the changing of his personal reality to drive home the fact that "You're in my world now!"

So again, Itachi has complete control over the amount of time the enemy is subdued in his illusion, and he can extend 3 days over 1 minute. Can you really, truly say definitively that Sasuke's ripped out eye pain only lasted seconds rather than a day? I'm not saying it did, but I AM saying we can't prove it didn't.

How can Tobi do that? He has to be ready for Tsukuyomi since it can happen at any time. Itachi never gave any sign of using Tsukuyomi until it was too late; only time he ever made it obvious he was using MS was when he used Amaterasu. We don't know how strong Tobi's Sharingan is after years and damage from Hashirama's fight, as he himself said he was a former shell of himself and was severely weakened.

Does he? Sasuke wasn't ready for Tsukiyomi at all, and he mustered the strength to escape it. And every feat of Genjutsu strength I mentioned that Madara produces was without his MS, and with his weakened Sharingan. Controlling Mizukage? Weak Madara did that. Controlling Kyuubi? Weakened Madara did that too. Controlling dying Konan? That was also weakened Madara, AND he was near dead from an assload of explosive tags.

[Rikudou King]

Itachi can't use Amaterasu instantly though, not without wasting extra chakra anyway. Like Sasuke, Tobi can try to get out of the way if he sees Itachi try to use Amaterasu.

Wouldn't Tobi know that though? I mean, he knew where Minato Hiraishin'ed to, he knew he was gonna be rasengan'd from the behind by Naruto, and he knew where Minato and Kushina were (though that's still murky). Kinda hard to believe Tobi can get tricked with a bunshin, but even then, Itachi's bunshin is just as dangerous. If Tobi isn't quick enough though, Itachi should be able to figure out the whole phasin thing and even possibly space/time ninjutsu.

The problem with long range attacks is that Tobi can avoid them all without really going intangible. I think he only does that for attacks that he can't dodge fast enough (though he probably let Naruto and his team phase through him for the lulz). But Tobi's arrogant, he probably thinks he can win even if Itachi knows about warping and space/time ninjutsu, though I find it hard to disagree with that.

Well instant as in launching it. Sasuke was a few yards away and knew it was coming again. If Madara is within touching distance, he wouldn't have the time to get away. The one that came from Sasuke didn't appear any faster then Itachi's normal Amaterasu and Madara was still hit by it even though he saw the eye bleeding and all.

With Itachi's speed at creating it, Madara wouldn't be able to know about it til after it was already made and at that point it wouldn't matter. Knowing that one is a clone doesn't matter if he can't figure out which one is the clone, especially if their both assaulting him the same way. Depending on which long range technique Itachi uses, Madara won't have the time to dodge. Itachi was able to launch his Water Fang Bullets before Kakashi knew they were coming. If Itachi has a clone helping him, Madara can't keep an eye on both of them the entire time, especially if we add in the possibility of genjutsu too.

[xXan]

Well instant as in launching it. Sasuke was a few yards away and knew it was coming again. If Madara is within touching distance, he wouldn't have the time to get away. The one that came from Sasuke didn't appear any faster then Itachi's normal Amaterasu and Madara was still hit by it even though he saw the eye bleeding and all.

With Itachi's speed at creating it, Madara wouldn't be able to know about it til after it was already made and at that point it wouldn't matter. Knowing that one is a clone doesn't matter if he can't figure out which one is the clone, especially if their both assaulting him the same way. Depending on which long range technique Itachi uses, Madara won't have the time to dodge. Itachi was able to launch his Water Fang Bullets before Kakashi knew they were coming. If Itachi has a clone helping him, Madara can't keep an eye on both of them the entire time, especially if we add in the possibility of genjutsu too.

Madara can just stay intangible when Itachi has clones out and let him drain himself :P
100% sure way to counter it. Madara activate Izanagi and grabs them. Madara "dies" and they get warped. Then Madara goes poof and its GG. Considering i can make a case for 10 mins (even 5 mins would be enough) of Izanagi he has all the time in the world to end this in God mode. Itachi can't even genjutsu him. Any MS would be just trowing away chakra.

[leafです]

The purpose of the clones is to figure out Madara's abilities and eventually force him to use Izanagi twice, not for pure offense. After Izanagi is activated, Itachi should hide for the time being since sharingan isn't like byakugan. xD Actually his only option is to use Susanoo to counter Madara's izanagi+space/time. The only problem is outlasting Madara until his second Izanagi is finished. Best case scenario for Itachi is to force Madara to use his second Izanagi immediately after his first Izanagi finishes. There is also the unknown possibilities of izanagi backfiring on Madara if Itachi uses Tsukiyomi on him. Izanagi is controlled with your imagination. If Madara were to imagine himself being stabbed a couple thousand times because Itachi used Tsukiyomi, izanagi may make those wounds reality.

Pain is simulated by the mind. It doesn't matter if you have an immortal body that can't be hurt; if your mind says it feels pain, you will feel the pain as well as the next mortal (e.g. Kakashi).

Wouldn't Madara lose chakra (no matter how little) too if he spams warping, intangibility, and teleporting? Isn't Madara's space/time technique a MS technique as well? Does Izanagi give you seemingly "infinite" chakra?