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View Poll Results: Who wins?

Voters
163. You may not vote on this poll
  • Madara

    70 42.94%
  • Itachi

    93 57.06%
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Thread: Madara vs Itachi

  1. #196
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    I don't think Tsukiyomi can overpower Izanagi as it is the ultimate genjutsu. Genjutsu works by extending your chakra to take control of the target's brain. Now Madara's brain in a sense is already effected by Izanagi so somehow he will have to counter that and then control his brain. Also any damage done to Madara would be reverted after the 3 seconds so Itachi would just be trowing away chakra. It apears you don't understand how Izanagi works. Madara's body get's damage even if he is in Izanagi but he can go poof and get's a new one. Whatever damage is done would be reverted.

    Itachi also has no way to hold Susano up for 5 to 10 mins. Now Itachi could also get what Konan got. He "kills" Madara and then beliving he won turns his back to move away only to find a pipe(or a kunai/warp) in his chest from the Madara that popet just behind him (as Madara can apear anywhere in a given distance after he "dies" in Izanagi).

    His ST techs would cost chakra sure but those are not MS techs for sure.

    Madara can also get out of MS genjutsu as he has all the tools. Itachi stated all you need is a sharingan and Uchiha blood. The Databook state that if you are a elite ninja (Uchiha of course) you can do that.

    All in all i have no idea how Itachi can counter 10 mins of Izanagi. Why do i state 10 mins? Because i belive Izanagi starts here:
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-4.html

    Why would he brake his mask at that moment if he does not intent to use Izanagi AT THAT MOMENT. Of course you can argue with it but i find that Kishi made Madara do that at that moment so we would know how long his Izanagi last.

  2. #197
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    I don't think Tsukiyomi can overpower Izanagi as it is the ultimate genjutsu. Genjutsu works by extending your chakra to take control of the target's brain. Now Madara's brain in a sense is already effected by Izanagi so somehow he will have to counter that and then control his brain. Also any damage done to Madara would be reverted after the 3 seconds so Itachi would just be trowing away chakra. It apears you don't understand how Izanagi works. Madara's body get's damage even if he is in Izanagi but he can go poof and get's a new one. Whatever damage is done would be reverted.

    Itachi also has no way to hold Susano up for 5 to 10 mins. Now Itachi could also get what Konan got. He "kills" Madara and then beliving he won turns his back to move away only to find a pipe(or a kunai/warp) in his chest from the Madara that popet just behind him (as Madara can apear anywhere in a given distance after he "dies" in Izanagi).

    His ST techs would cost chakra sure but those are not MS techs for sure.

    Madara can also get out of MS genjutsu as he has all the tools. Itachi stated all you need is a sharingan and Uchiha blood. The Databook state that if you are a elite ninja (Uchiha of course) you can do that.

    All in all i have no idea how Itachi can counter 10 mins of Izanagi. Why do i state 10 mins? Because i belive Izanagi starts here:
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-4.html

    Why would he brake his mask at that moment if he does not intent to use Izanagi AT THAT MOMENT. Of course you can argue with it but i find that Kishi made Madara do that at that moment so we would know how long his Izanagi last.
    Tsukuyomi's effect on Izanagi is unknown. According to the wiki, it never mentions that Izanagi is the "strongest genjutsu;" it suggests that Tsukuyomi and Izanagi are actually on par. This means the strength and effect of each genjutsu is dependent on the user. Unknownnn... Izanagi can't repair mental damage, only physical.

    Just how many times do you think Sasuke pulled out Susanoo? Even that should be long enough to outlast Izanagi plus Itachi is more proficient and efficient with it.
    Last edited by leafです; July 20, 2011 at 10:20 AM.

  3. #198
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by leafです View Post
    Tsukuyomi's effect on Izanagi is unknown. According to the wiki, it never mentions that Izanagi is the "strongest genjutsu;" it suggests that Tsukuyomi and Izanagi are actually on par. This means the strength and effect of each genjutsu is dependent on the user. Unknownnn... Izanagi can't repair mental damage, only physical.

    Just how many times do you think Sasuke pulled out Susanoo? Even that should be long enough to outlast Izanagi plus Itachi is more proficient and efficient with it.
    Itachi is not Sasuke... Itachi showed to lose Susano after some 90 seconds tops. Itachi is not going to roll over and die from his sickness in this tournament but his performance is how it was in that fight with Sasuke. Sasuke showed to spam MS way above Itachi, that is how he lost his eyes so fast.

    Mental damage was showed to actualy be a type of brain damage as Tsunade heal it. There is no other explanation. Also how sure you are Izanagi can't repair that lol. What is your evidence of that?

    But of course you don't need to bother... Madara states it can reverse ANYTHING not only physical damage and turn it into a dream:
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-2.html

    Going by this i would asume it is above MS genjutsu:
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-479-page-4.html
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-10.html
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-11.html

    Even the fact that it last for the brifest of moments(you lose your eye to) and its a forbidden tech even for the Uchiha and it should tell you its above MS genjutsu. It is also something that takes Uchiha+Senju blood.

    At the very least its useless to use MS genjutsu on Madara if he is in Izanagi...
    Last edited by xXan; July 20, 2011 at 12:54 PM.

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  5. #199
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Madara can just stay intangible when Itachi has clones out and let him drain himself :P
    100% sure way to counter it. Madara activate Izanagi and grabs them. Madara "dies" and they get warped. Then Madara goes poof and its GG. Considering i can make a case for 10 mins (even 5 mins would be enough) of Izanagi he has all the time in the world to end this in God mode. Itachi can't even genjutsu him. Any MS would be just trowing away chakra.
    What do you mean "drain himself"? The only way creating a clone could drain Itachi is if Madara was instantly killing them when they were just made, and him being ale to do that is highly doubtful. If Madara is intangible, it becomes nothing more then a waiting game, since he can't do anything to either Itachi or the clone. If Madara is hit with a technique as he attempts to warp them, he's not gonna be able to warp them. We saw with Konan that it cancels out. And it still would rely on Madara getting his hands on the real Itachi in the first place. There's no reason Itachi couldn't genjutsu him. The only real issue is how effective it'll be.

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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    "[Izanagi] is the most powerful genjutsu anyone can cast on themselves!!"

    What you say may be true if you cut off the last five words, but those last five words affect the meaning greatly. Why else would Madara need Tsukuyomi to complete his plans when he already has "the most powerful genjutsu?" He needs Tsukuyomi because it is the most powerful genjutsu (that you can cast on others).

    "strongest genjutsu"
    same as above except different translation

    Even if Izanagi can make anything into a "dream," turning a trauma, memory or dream into a dream or illusion does nothing. You'll will still remember it in all its pain and glory. Genjutsu does not inflict physical damage such as brain damage nor is it sealing anything inside the mind.

    (hm... a dream inside a dream inside... I can imagine Itachi performing Inception on Madara. xD)

    "The power to bring imagination to life. That is Izanagi."
    "...connect illusion and reality."

    Now imagine yourself being stabbed a thousand times all while having Izanagi on. If Itachi's illusion on Madara turned to reality because of Izanagi, Madara would be very hurt. It may be simple to say stop imagining the pain from the stabs, but the pain itself is very real.

    Madara is not the Sage of the Six Paths. He doesn't have that power of creation or the true Izanagi. This is why Madara needs to assimilate the ten-tails plus have the power of Tsukuyomi.

  7. #201
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sevenheadedmirror's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by leafです View Post
    "[Izanagi] is the most powerful genjutsu anyone can cast on themselves!!"...
    So the power of controlling reality is somehow inferior to the ability of creating a damaging illusion?. That's your argument?. No, Itachi's skill is to alter one's time perception and use that 'extra-time' to torture them. The moment Izanagi is activated it is, there's no persistence aspect to Tsukuyomi that will get your inception joke remotely plausible, Madara will start fresh and Tsukuyomi will be eaten, giving his caster the damage when that happens while Madara still has time before his eye closes and spam the jutsu a little more.
    Last edited by Sevenheadedmirror; July 20, 2011 at 03:35 PM.
    To in infer something and pose it as implied in the source is to justify something.
    The justification that an arc or a story sucks because the author is as tired as us from it can't apply since it's the author's fault it sucks to begin with.

  8. #202
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by leafです View Post
    "[Izanagi] is the most powerful genjutsu anyone can cast on themselves!!"

    What you say may be true if you cut off the last five words, but those last five words affect the meaning greatly. Why else would Madara need Tsukuyomi to complete his plans when he already has "the most powerful genjutsu?" He needs Tsukuyomi because it is the most powerful genjutsu (that you can cast on others).

    "strongest genjutsu"
    same as above except different translation

    Even if Izanagi can make anything into a "dream," turning a trauma, memory or dream into a dream or illusion does nothing. You'll will still remember it in all its pain and glory. Genjutsu does not inflict physical damage such as brain damage nor is it sealing anything inside the mind.

    (hm... a dream inside a dream inside... I can imagine Itachi performing Inception on Madara. xD)

    "The power to bring imagination to life. That is Izanagi."
    "...connect illusion and reality."

    Now imagine yourself being stabbed a thousand times all while having Izanagi on. If Itachi's illusion on Madara turned to reality because of Izanagi, Madara would be very hurt. It may be simple to say stop imagining the pain from the stabs, but the pain itself is very real.

    Madara is not the Sage of the Six Paths. He doesn't have that power of creation or the true Izanagi. This is why Madara needs to assimilate the ten-tails plus have the power of Tsukuyomi.
    Is that all you got from Izanagi? Wow ok... Also i already told you Madara can brake Itachi's Tsukuyomi in normal conditions. So yes its irrelevant.
    Why Madara needs Tsukuyomi for his plan? Because Izanagi can only be cast on yourself lol. Also Kakashi REMEMBERS the event back then and he was healed by Tsuande. Its just a normal brain heal( of course with a hight level tech). Its just a ton of mental damage that end up busting the brain (physically). All you need to do is heal the brain and Madara can just go POOF and get a new one.

    As for what Zetsu stated.. We don't even know if Zetsu knew about Izanagi. Considering what the both of these genjutsu can do Izanagi would be the more powerfull one. Its just that one is the most powerfull defensive genjutsu and the other the most powerfull offensive. genjutsu. Now if the 2 of them would go head to head in Madara case Izanagi should come ahead considering what it can do. But all this manbo jumbo is irrelevant as Madara can brake out of it anyway.

    PS. I wonder what Zetsu would state about the frog genjutsu... That thing would defenetly be better then MS genjutsu if you are fighting more then 2 peeps.
    Last edited by xXan; July 20, 2011 at 03:53 PM.

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  10. #203
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    The brain isn't damaged the mind is. The brain just isn't in a state of normalcy. Apparently Izanagi only activates when the user actually dies.
    Last edited by En Yang Ji; July 20, 2011 at 04:21 PM.

  11. #204
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    The brain isn't damaged the mind is. The brain just isn't in a state of normalcy. Apparently Izanagi only activates when the user actually dies.
    I sugest you people read what Madara states... It can turn ANYTHING into a dream even injury or death. It has no need to w8 for you to die. Its just that you go POOF when you die. Also what would you call damage the mind and how would Tsunade heal that? The mental damage just end up damaging the brain itself as no other thing would make sense.

    @Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    If Madara is hit with a technique as he attempts to warp them, he's not gonna be able to warp them. We saw with Konan that it cancels out. And it still would rely on Madara getting his hands on the real Itachi in the first place. There's no reason Itachi couldn't genjutsu him. The only real issue is how effective it'll be.
    It looked to me as Madara stoped the warping to save his but?! Where has he failed to warp because he got hit with something?

    Also why would Madara faild to get his hands on Itachi when Kakashi could(even if that was a clone of Kakashi)? Personaly i would put Madara ahead in tactics.
    Last edited by xXan; July 20, 2011 at 05:00 PM.

  12. #205
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well instant as in launching it. Sasuke was a few yards away and knew it was coming again. If Madara is within touching distance, he wouldn't have the time to get away. The one that came from Sasuke didn't appear any faster then Itachi's normal Amaterasu and Madara was still hit by it even though he saw the eye bleeding and all.
    Apparently Sasuke was able to move before Itachi opened his eye, meaning Sasuke somehow knew Amaterasu was coming, which may indicate that Sharingan can see chakra going to the eye for a specific jutsu. If Tobi knows about this, he can avoid it even in close quarters as it takes Itachi a while (maybe a second or five) to use Amaterasu (my assumption is the same as the one for Kakashi's, to use exact amount or near exact amount of chakra to avoid wasting it).

    Tobi didn't make any movement to get away until after he was hit with Amaterasu. Plus, he may not have known about the Amaterasu, it could have been a Tsukuyomi, especially if Itachi knew about Tobi's intangibility.

    Though I do think Tobi could be arrogant here and actually reveal his secret/s, letting Itachi figure it out.

    Quote Quote:
    With Itachi's speed at creating it, Madara wouldn't be able to know about it til after it was already made and at that point it wouldn't matter. Knowing that one is a clone doesn't matter if he can't figure out which one is the clone, especially if their both assaulting him the same way. Depending on which long range technique Itachi uses, Madara won't have the time to dodge. Itachi was able to launch his Water Fang Bullets before Kakashi knew they were coming. If Itachi has a clone helping him, Madara can't keep an eye on both of them the entire time, especially if we add in the possibility of genjutsu too.
    He could figure out which one is the clone though
    I just reread the beginning of Team Kakashi vs. Tobi, and Naruto just made it obvious he was behind Tobi with a rasengan. <_< So much for the sneak attack.

    The only reason why I question that is because Tobi's still mysterious and able to find anyone. He could somehow know which one's the real Itachi, although that won't really help as you said, both Itachi can continuously attack Tobi and overwhelm him or bring him close to being overwhelmed. The problem is, Tobi can stay intangible for five minutes and can probably warp stuff away fast enough to avoid any killing blows. Itachi apart from Amaterasu doesn't really have anything that could get Tobi to stop warping him like Konan did, I think. Rereading Konan vs. Tobi again, I actually think it's more possible for Itachi to hurt Tobi, especially with a clone, but it depends on the kind of jutsu he uses. It took Konan years to learn and plan how to take out Tobi, Itachi doesn't have that kind of info, though.

    Not to mention, Tobi can tank attacks. He still fought Konan despite losing his right hand right from the shoulder or close to it and even cut off his arm against Fuu and Torune.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    But can you prove that's a greater mental strain, not physical? Again, we were being shown Tsukiyomi from Itachi's point of view when he hit Kakashi with it, that's why it was all freaky looking. When it was used on Sasuke it was done in a way so that we (the reader) wouldn't know it was Tsukiyomi until Sasuke actually breaks it, aswell as to truly fool Sasuke into thinking that he wanted his eyes. It was as if it was Sasuke's vision we were seeing. It was the only way to show the Tsukiyomi broken by Sasuke (showing the world around him fall apart). Infact, the simple fact that we do indeed see the weird inverted colors around Sasuke fall apart means that he was indeed inside the mental dimension where Itachi controls space and time. Now, when he used Tsukiyomi against Kakashi there was no need to hide what the dimension looked like. It's even possible Itachi intentionally allowed Kakashi to see the changing of his personal reality to drive home the fact that "You're in my world now!"
    If it's from Itachi's point of view, it's Kakashi's point of view too since he sees what Itachi imagined. Itachi probably had it freaky looking, like he did against Sasuke few times in Part I/flashback, to do greater mental damage due to bleak environment, if that makes sense. Sasuke also wasn't continuously tortured like Kakashi was, he got his eye removed (I don't think it was repetitive, though it may have taken longer than the manga shown).

    Of course, the difference was he was taking Kakashi out as quick as possible while taking his time with Sasuke, I guess. With Tobi Itachi would be as quick as possible and make it hard for Tobi to escape.

    Quote Quote:
    So again, Itachi has complete control over the amount of time the enemy is subdued in his illusion, and he can extend 3 days over 1 minute. Can you really, truly say definitively that Sasuke's ripped out eye pain only lasted seconds rather than a day? I'm not saying it did, but I AM saying we can't prove it didn't.
    The manga doesn't in any way state otherwise though (which doesn't mean much, I must conclude). We usually see some kind of confirmation as to how long Itachi's made his genjutsu world last for, which would have more of a mental impact. I think the eyegrab no jutsu didn't last any longer than few seconds.




    Quote Quote:
    Does he? Sasuke wasn't ready for Tsukiyomi at all, and he mustered the strength to escape it. And every feat of Genjutsu strength I mentioned that Madara produces was without his MS, and with his weakened Sharingan. Controlling Mizukage? Weak Madara did that. Controlling Kyuubi? Weakened Madara did that too. Controlling dying Konan? That was also weakened Madara, AND he was near dead from an assload of explosive tags.
    He somehow knew he was in Tsukuyomi though and wasn't tortured the way Kakashi was. When Tobi used genjutsu on others, he wasn't fighting or had damage (other than against Konan, but Izanagi is different from normal genjutsu). Tobi may have been weak, but he still had his Sharingan and knowledge of how to control Kyuubi, as well as his chakra (and Hashirama's cells), it wouldn't be that hard to use genjutsu on others. WHile he did, has he broken out of any genjutsu he's been in? High level ones anyway? We can't really assume Tobi can break out of Itachi's genjutsu even though Sasuke could.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Is that all you got from Izanagi? Wow ok... Also i already told you Madara can brake Itachi's Tsukuyomi in normal conditions. So yes its irrelevant.
    Why Madara needs Tsukuyomi for his plan? Because Izanagi can only be cast on yourself lol. Also Kakashi REMEMBERS the event back then and he was healed by Tsuande. Its just a normal brain heal( of course with a hight level tech). Its just a ton of mental damage that end up busting the brain (physically). All you need to do is heal the brain and Madara can just go POOF and get a new one.
    How though? Just because Tobi's an elite Uchiha with Sharingan doesn't mean he can automatically break Tsukuyomi, especially of Itachi's caliber. It just means it's easier for him to do so or possible, but not that he definitely can.

    Tobi can get a new brain... what? If he gets mentally damaged, then depending on the severity and his own mental strength, he likely can't do much, for long anyway. Kakashi was out in a few minutes while Sasuke was almost immediately out (flashback and Part I). Tobi can still be unable to break out of Tsukuyomi, especially if Itachi keeps him from focusing on breaking out of Tsukuyomi.

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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    It looked to me as Madara stoped the warping to save his but?! Where has he failed to warp because he got hit with something?

    Also why would Madara faild to get his hands on Itachi when Kakashi could(even if that was a clone of Kakashi)? Personaly i would put Madara ahead in tactics.
    Madara didn't stop warping against Konan. He was still warping, but had to switch to warping the explosion instead of Konan herself. If Itachi hit Madara with a ninjutsu as he's warping, Madara will have to warp that technique up. And from what we saw against Konan, he's still likely to take damage from said technique.

    That's not really the same thing. It wasn't the clone that got Itachi, it was Itachi who grabbed the clone first. Itachi had no trouble avoiding the clone. So he shouldn't have much trouble with Madara, especially when there would be two of him running around on the field attacking. Each Itachi would be able to prevent Madara from singling out the other and warping them, and also make the consistent attacking easier then if just one was doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Apparently Sasuke was able to move before Itachi opened his eye, meaning Sasuke somehow knew Amaterasu was coming, which may indicate that Sharingan can see chakra going to the eye for a specific jutsu. If Tobi knows about this, he can avoid it even in close quarters as it takes Itachi a while (maybe a second or five) to use Amaterasu (my assumption is the same as the one for Kakashi's, to use exact amount or near exact amount of chakra to avoid wasting it).

    Tobi didn't make any movement to get away until after he was hit with Amaterasu. Plus, he may not have known about the Amaterasu, it could have been a Tsukuyomi, especially if Itachi knew about Tobi's intangibility.

    Though I do think Tobi could be arrogant here and actually reveal his secret/s, letting Itachi figure it out.
    Yeah, Sasuke saw it coming because Itachi had just used it beforehand and he was a good distance away. Madara wouldn't know Itachi has it until he actually uses it and he'll be too close to dodge. Remember, when Madara is warping something other then himself, it takes longer. So his reactions will be slower as he's attempting to warp Itachi then it would be if he wasn't.

    Madara didn't make any moves to get away because it seems he was surprised by it. The same would happen here, since he wouldn't know that Itachi has MS until he actually employs it. And since Itachi wouldn't use his MS until absolutely necessary, he wouldn't activate it until he was completely sure that it would work or he was in complete danger. As Madara's only dangerous technique is the warping, Itachi wouldn't have no reason to use it apart from then.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He could figure out which one is the clone though
    I just reread the beginning of Team Kakashi vs. Tobi, and Naruto just made it obvious he was behind Tobi with a rasengan. <_< So much for the sneak attack.

    The only reason why I question that is because Tobi's still mysterious and able to find anyone. He could somehow know which one's the real Itachi, although that won't really help as you said, both Itachi can continuously attack Tobi and overwhelm him or bring him close to being overwhelmed. The problem is, Tobi can stay intangible for five minutes and can probably warp stuff away fast enough to avoid any killing blows. Itachi apart from Amaterasu doesn't really have anything that could get Tobi to stop warping him like Konan did, I think. Rereading Konan vs. Tobi again, I actually think it's more possible for Itachi to hurt Tobi, especially with a clone, but it depends on the kind of jutsu he uses. It took Konan years to learn and plan how to take out Tobi, Itachi doesn't have that kind of info, though.

    Not to mention, Tobi can tank attacks. He still fought Konan despite losing his right hand right from the shoulder or close to it and even cut off his arm against Fuu and Torune.
    Well Madara's ability to locate people wouldn't necessarily translate to him being able to figure out which is the real Itachi if both the real one and clone are on the same field. I mean, his ability to locate others could be similar to that of sensor ninja, where he's simply searching for their specific chakra. Or he could have been using Zetsu, since we have never actually seen him before locating someone.

    I don't see much problem for Itachi handling Madara's intangibility, but it doesn't seem like Madara can just warp an attack away. The one time we saw him do that, he still took quite a bit of damage. and depending on the size, it could leave him quite vulnerable while he's warping. That's why Susanoo should be a good defense. Madara wouldn't be able to instantly warp it and since he's solid, he would be open to attack. Itachi probably wouldn't have to damage Madara that much to gain an edge. If Itachi can simply eliminate Madara's hands, that would prevent Madara from taking hold of him and make it much easier to escape the warping without having to resort to his MS or something. So there wouldn't be much of a problem with Madara tanking his attacks as long as Itachi was able to do the right amount of damage.

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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    @M3J


    Quote Quote:
    How though? Just because Tobi's an elite Uchiha with Sharingan doesn't mean he can automatically break Tsukuyomi, especially of Itachi's caliber. It just means it's easier for him to do so or possible, but not that he definitely can.
    More reasons then one:

    1-Itachi told Kakashi that you need Uchiha blood to counter his Tsukiyomi. So Kakashi himself was only missing that.
    2-The databook states you need to be a elite Uchiha to counter ITACHI's Tsukiyomi.

    Quote Quote:
    NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
    User: Uchiha Itachi
    Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

    Main text

    Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

    Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

    Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labeled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.
    So what Itachi HIMSELF states Madara has and what the databook states one would need Madara has and more then enough. Not only does Madara has Uchiha DNA but SENJU to that is needed for you to power up the most powerfull genjutsu(Izanagi). Madara stated you need senju + uchiha to to use Izanagi. Madara also has unsurpassed sharingan mastery and knowledge.

    3- Madara himself had Tsukiyomi once and knows how it works.
    4- Madara showed the most knowledge in sharingan and mastery of it. He even knows knows Izanagi, how to cast Tsukiyomi on the moon, showed genjutsu skills, he is a master tactician and so on.

    All of this = Madara can do it.

    Quote Quote:
    Tobi can get a new brain... what? If he gets mentally damaged, then depending on the severity and his own mental strength, he likely can't do much, for long anyway. Kakashi was out in a few minutes while Sasuke was almost immediately out (flashback and Part I). Tobi can still be unable to break out of Tsukuyomi, especially if Itachi keeps him from focusing on breaking out of Tsukuyomi.
    Get a new brain in a sense as his body goes poof and turns whatever damage in just a dream. The mental damage ends up damaging the brain itself as Tsunade never erased Kakashi's memories from Tsukiyomi just used a healing tech on him. Keep in mind(ignoring the fact that Madara can counteri it easy) Madara would be in Izanagi so aside from the fact that i belive Tsukuyomi would not even work on Madara when he is in Izanagi, whatever damage, physical or mental would be turned into just a dream. If Tsuande can heal the damage made by Tsukiyomi i am sure Madara getting a new body (in a sense) would counter the damage.

    @Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    Madara didn't stop warping against Konan. He was still warping, but had to switch to warping the explosion instead of Konan herself. If Itachi hit Madara with a ninjutsu as he's warping, Madara will have to warp that technique up. And from what we saw against Konan, he's still likely to take damage from said technique.
    That is as i said, Madara has done that to save his but and not because he can't warp when he get's damage. If he is in Izanagi Itachi can go ahead and blow him away. Madara would go poof and Itachi would be in his dimension. GG.

    Quote Quote:
    That's not really the same thing. It wasn't the clone that got Itachi, it was Itachi who grabbed the clone first. Itachi had no trouble avoiding the clone. So he shouldn't have much trouble with Madara, especially when there would be two of him running around on the field attacking. Each Itachi would be able to prevent Madara from singling out the other and warping them, and also make the consistent attacking easier then if just one was doing it.
    Itachi would probably get warped after the first "kill" of Madara in Izanagi, just like Konan as he is going to let his guard down. Expecialy if he usses Amaterasu or exploading clones.
    As for the rest:
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-260-page-5.html

    Itachi blocked his attack and tried to punch him. If not for that Kakashi would have followed with another attack. In other words he was forced. Now keep in mind that before Madara first try to warp Itachi the warping tech will be completly unknown to Itachi so he could replicate his fighting style used and showed vs Kakashi expecialy since Madara himself showed the same thing, coming out of the ground to warp someone. Itachi's fighting style is not to fight side by side with a clone (well most of the time) but use clones for very specific events to counter diferent techs.
    All in all personaly i belive Madara is going to get his hands on him expecialy considering Madara himself is a very tactical mind.


    Quote Quote:
    Well Madara's ability to locate people wouldn't necessarily translate to him being able to figure out which is the real Itachi if both the real one and clone are on the same field. I mean, his ability to locate others could be similar to that of sensor ninja, where he's simply searching for their specific chakra. Or he could have been using Zetsu, since we have never actually seen him before locating someone.

    Minato teleported and then Madara warped just after him. Its probably Zetsu's spores but considering himself is some type of Zetsu i am sure he can follow those.
    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-502-page-10.html

    This was close to instantly. Also personaly i belive he will know on who those Zetsu's spores are. When Madara warped after Minato he warped in front of him and looking direcly at him. This would imply that he knows the exact place where his target is.

    Problem is he probably needs Zetsu to plant the spores.
    Last edited by xXan; July 21, 2011 at 04:29 AM.

  15. #208
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Every time Itachi uses Tsukuyomi, his left MS eye gets a panel. Right here, Itachi activates Tsukuyomi and gives Sasuke a long lecture. Ending here, Sasuke did not break out of Itachi's first Tsukuyomi. After the first tsukuyomi, the battle went on to a shuriken battle, which was succeeded by the second Tsukuyomi. And you know what happens after that. Why would Itachi use Tsukuyomi to lecture Sasuke? Perhaps Itachi wanted to prevent Zetsu from knowing that information about Madara has been leaked.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v42/c385/15.html
    Madara only became weak because he controlled nine-tails. He won't have needed to form Akatsuki if he had the power control the tailed beasts. If he was indeed weak Madara that controlled the nine-tails, all he would need to do to capture the tailed beasts is to perform tactics similar to how he took control of the nine-tails.

    A flaw to Izanagi is that it can't heal wounds inflicted before its activation. http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-15.html

    Any physical damage caused by Tsukuyomi is caused by the victims physiological reaction to it, not Tsukuyomi itself. It's like how your heart beats fast when you get a nightmare.
    Last edited by leafです; July 21, 2011 at 07:40 AM.

  16. #209
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    @leafです


    Quote Quote:
    Every time Itachi uses Tsukuyomi, his left MS eye gets a panel. Right here, Itachi activates Tsukuyomi and gives Sasuke a long lecture. Ending here, Sasuke did not break out of Itachi's first Tsukuyomi. After the first tsukuyomi, the battle went on to a shuriken battle, which was succeeded by the second Tsukuyomi. And you know what happens after that. Why would Itachi use Tsukuyomi to lecture Sasuke? Perhaps Itachi wanted to prevent Zetsu from knowing that information about Madara has been leaked.
    He is not using it there. He just shows his MS and then Kishi shows up his vision is all blury. I do belive there would be no need to show us his blury eyes when in genjutsu.


    Quote Quote:
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v42/c385/15.html
    Madara only became weak because he controlled nine-tails. He won't have needed to form Akatsuki if he had the power control the tailed beasts. If he was indeed weak Madara that controlled the nine-tails, all he would need to do to capture the tailed beasts is to perform tactics similar to how he took control of the nine-tails.
    Not only because of the Kyuubi but using any MS jutsus. Madara also can only control the Kyuubi from what we know.
    Last edited by xXan; July 21, 2011 at 07:55 AM.

  17. #210
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    - What the DB and Itachi said about breaking Tsukuyomi, was about the possibility of breaking it, not about it being something definite.

    - How will Madara break out of Tsukuyomi if it's too painful to concentrate enough to break it?

    - If Madara tries to warp, Itachi can create a KB behind Madara to cut his head off, before he's absorbed.
    Last edited by En Yang Ji; July 21, 2011 at 09:13 AM.

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