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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
I don't think Tsukiyomi can overpower Izanagi as it is the ultimate genjutsu. Genjutsu works by extending your chakra to take control of the target's brain. Now Madara's brain in a sense is already effected by Izanagi so somehow he will have to counter that and then control his brain. Also any damage done to Madara would be reverted after the 3 seconds so Itachi would just be trowing away chakra. It apears you don't understand how Izanagi works. Madara's body get's damage even if he is in Izanagi but he can go poof and get's a new one. Whatever damage is done would be reverted.
Itachi also has no way to hold Susano up for 5 to 10 mins. Now Itachi could also get what Konan got. He "kills" Madara and then beliving he won turns his back to move away only to find a pipe(or a kunai/warp) in his chest from the Madara that popet just behind him (as Madara can apear anywhere in a given distance after he "dies" in Izanagi).
His ST techs would cost chakra sure but those are not MS techs for sure.
Madara can also get out of MS genjutsu as he has all the tools. Itachi stated all you need is a sharingan and Uchiha blood. The Databook state that if you are a elite ninja (Uchiha of course) you can do that.
All in all i have no idea how Itachi can counter 10 mins of Izanagi. Why do i state 10 mins? Because i belive Izanagi starts here:
Why would he brake his mask at that moment if he does not intent to use Izanagi AT THAT MOMENT. Of course you can argue with it but i find that Kishi made Madara do that at that moment so we would know how long his Izanagi last.
Just how many times do you think Sasuke pulled out Susanoo? Even that should be long enough to outlast Izanagi plus Itachi is more proficient and efficient with it.
Last edited by leafです; July 20, 2011 at 10:20 AM.
Mental damage was showed to actualy be a type of brain damage as Tsunade heal it. There is no other explanation. Also how sure you are Izanagi can't repair that lol. What is your evidence of that?
But of course you don't need to bother... Madara states it can reverse ANYTHING not only physical damage and turn it into a dream:
Going by this i would asume it is above MS genjutsu:
Even the fact that it last for the brifest of moments(you lose your eye to) and its a forbidden tech even for the Uchiha and it should tell you its above MS genjutsu. It is also something that takes Uchiha+Senju blood.
At the very least its useless to use MS genjutsu on Madara if he is in Izanagi...
Last edited by xXan; July 20, 2011 at 12:54 PM.
"[Izanagi] is the most powerful genjutsu
anyone can cast on themselves!!"
What you say may be true if you cut off the last five words, but those last five words affect the meaning greatly. Why else would Madara need Tsukuyomi to complete his plans when he already has "the most powerful genjutsu?" He needs Tsukuyomi because it is the most powerful genjutsu (that you can cast on others).
same as above except different translation
Even if Izanagi can make anything into a "dream," turning a trauma, memory or dream into a dream or illusion does nothing. You'll will still remember it in all its pain and glory. Genjutsu does not inflict physical damage such as brain damage nor is it sealing anything inside the mind.
(hm... a dream inside a dream inside... I can imagine Itachi performing Inception on Madara. xD)
"The power to bring imagination to life. That is Izanagi."
"...connect illusion and reality."
Now imagine yourself being stabbed a thousand times all while having Izanagi on. If Itachi's illusion on Madara turned to reality because of Izanagi, Madara would be very hurt. It may be simple to say stop imagining the pain from the stabs, but the pain itself is very real.
Madara is not the Sage of the Six Paths. He doesn't have that power of creation or the true Izanagi. This is why Madara needs to assimilate the ten-tails plus have the power of Tsukuyomi.
Last edited by Sevenheadedmirror; July 20, 2011 at 03:35 PM.
Why Madara needs Tsukuyomi for his plan? Because Izanagi can only be cast on yourself lol. Also Kakashi REMEMBERS the event back then and he was healed by Tsuande. Its just a normal brain heal( of course with a hight level tech). Its just a ton of mental damage that end up busting the brain (physically). All you need to do is heal the brain and Madara can just go POOF and get a new one.
As for what Zetsu stated.. We don't even know if Zetsu knew about Izanagi. Considering what the both of these genjutsu can do Izanagi would be the more powerfull one. Its just that one is the most powerfull defensive genjutsu and the other the most powerfull offensive. genjutsu. Now if the 2 of them would go head to head in Madara case Izanagi should come ahead considering what it can do. But all this manbo jumbo is irrelevant as Madara can brake out of it anyway.
PS. I wonder what Zetsu would state about the frog genjutsu... That thing would defenetly be better then MS genjutsu if you are fighting more then 2 peeps.
Last edited by xXan; July 20, 2011 at 03:53 PM.
The brain isn't damaged the mind is. The brain just isn't in a state of normalcy. Apparently Izanagi only activates when the user actually dies.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; July 20, 2011 at 04:21 PM.
It looked to me as Madara stoped the warping to save his but?! Where has he failed to warp because he got hit with something?Quote:
Also why would Madara faild to get his hands on Itachi when Kakashi could(even if that was a clone of Kakashi)? Personaly i would put Madara ahead in tactics.
Last edited by xXan; July 20, 2011 at 05:00 PM.
move before Itachi opened his eye, meaning Sasuke somehow knew Amaterasu was coming, which may indicate that Sharingan can see chakra going to the eye for a specific jutsu. If Tobi knows about this, he can avoid it even in close quarters as it takes Itachi a while (maybe a second or five) to use Amaterasu (my assumption is the same as the one for Kakashi's, to use exact amount or near exact amount of chakra to avoid wasting it).
Tobi didn't make any movement to get away until after he was hit with Amaterasu. Plus, he may not have known about the Amaterasu, it could have been a Tsukuyomi, especially if Itachi knew about Tobi's intangibility.
Though I do think Tobi could be arrogant here and actually reveal his secret/s, letting Itachi figure it out.
He could figure out which one is the clone though
I just reread the beginning of Team Kakashi vs. Tobi, and Naruto just made it obvious he was behind Tobi with a rasengan. <_< So much for the sneak attack.
The only reason why I question that is because Tobi's still mysterious and able to find anyone. He could somehow know which one's the real Itachi, although that won't really help as you said, both Itachi can continuously attack Tobi and overwhelm him or bring him close to being overwhelmed. The problem is, Tobi can stay intangible for five minutes and can probably warp stuff away fast enough to avoid any killing blows. Itachi apart from Amaterasu doesn't really have anything that could get Tobi to stop warping him like Konan did, I think. Rereading Konan vs. Tobi again, I actually think it's more possible for Itachi to hurt Tobi, especially with a clone, but it depends on the kind of jutsu he uses. It took Konan years to learn and plan how to take out Tobi, Itachi doesn't have that kind of info, though.
Not to mention, Tobi can tank attacks. He still fought Konan despite losing his right hand right from the shoulder or close to it and even cut off his arm against Fuu and Torune.
Of course, the difference was he was taking Kakashi out as quick as possible while taking his time with Sasuke, I guess. With Tobi Itachi would be as quick as possible and make it hard for Tobi to escape.
The manga doesn't in any way state otherwise though (which doesn't mean much, I must conclude). We usually see some kind of confirmation as to how long Itachi's made his genjutsu world last for, which would have more of a mental impact. I think the eyegrab no jutsu didn't last any longer than few seconds.Quote:
He somehow knew he was in Tsukuyomi though and wasn't tortured the way Kakashi was. When Tobi used genjutsu on others, he wasn't fighting or had damage (other than against Konan, but Izanagi is different from normal genjutsu). Tobi may have been weak, but he still had his Sharingan and knowledge of how to control Kyuubi, as well as his chakra (and Hashirama's cells), it wouldn't be that hard to use genjutsu on others. WHile he did, has he broken out of any genjutsu he's been in? High level ones anyway? We can't really assume Tobi can break out of Itachi's genjutsu even though Sasuke could.Quote:
Tobi can get a new brain... what? If he gets mentally damaged, then depending on the severity and his own mental strength, he likely can't do much, for long anyway. Kakashi was out in a few minutes while Sasuke was almost immediately out (flashback and Part I). Tobi can still be unable to break out of Tsukuyomi, especially if Itachi keeps him from focusing on breaking out of Tsukuyomi.
That's not really the same thing. It wasn't the clone that got Itachi, it was Itachi who grabbed the clone first. Itachi had no trouble avoiding the clone. So he shouldn't have much trouble with Madara, especially when there would be two of him running around on the field attacking. Each Itachi would be able to prevent Madara from singling out the other and warping them, and also make the consistent attacking easier then if just one was doing it.
Madara didn't make any moves to get away because it seems he was surprised by it. The same would happen here, since he wouldn't know that Itachi has MS until he actually employs it. And since Itachi wouldn't use his MS until absolutely necessary, he wouldn't activate it until he was completely sure that it would work or he was in complete danger. As Madara's only dangerous technique is the warping, Itachi wouldn't have no reason to use it apart from then.
I don't see much problem for Itachi handling Madara's intangibility, but it doesn't seem like Madara can just warp an attack away. The one time we saw him do that, he still took quite a bit of damage. and depending on the size, it could leave him quite vulnerable while he's warping. That's why Susanoo should be a good defense. Madara wouldn't be able to instantly warp it and since he's solid, he would be open to attack. Itachi probably wouldn't have to damage Madara that much to gain an edge. If Itachi can simply eliminate Madara's hands, that would prevent Madara from taking hold of him and make it much easier to escape the warping without having to resort to his MS or something. So there wouldn't be much of a problem with Madara tanking his attacks as long as Itachi was able to do the right amount of damage.
More reasons then one:Quote:
1-Itachi told Kakashi that you need Uchiha blood to counter his Tsukiyomi. So Kakashi himself was only missing that.
2-The databook states you need to be a elite Uchiha to counter ITACHI's Tsukiyomi.
So what Itachi HIMSELF states Madara has and what the databook states one would need Madara has and more then enough. Not only does Madara has Uchiha DNA but SENJU to that is needed for you to power up the most powerfull genjutsu(Izanagi). Madara stated you need senju + uchiha to to use Izanagi. Madara also has unsurpassed sharingan mastery and knowledge.Quote:
3- Madara himself had Tsukiyomi once and knows how it works.
4- Madara showed the most knowledge in sharingan and mastery of it. He even knows knows Izanagi, how to cast Tsukiyomi on the moon, showed genjutsu skills, he is a master tactician and so on.
All of this = Madara can do it.
Get a new brain in a sense as his body goes poof and turns whatever damage in just a dream. The mental damage ends up damaging the brain itself as Tsunade never erased Kakashi's memories from Tsukiyomi just used a healing tech on him. Keep in mind(ignoring the fact that Madara can counteri it easy) Madara would be in Izanagi so aside from the fact that i belive Tsukuyomi would not even work on Madara when he is in Izanagi, whatever damage, physical or mental would be turned into just a dream. If Tsuande can heal the damage made by Tsukiyomi i am sure Madara getting a new body (in a sense) would counter the damage.Quote:
That is as i said, Madara has done that to save his but and not because he can't warp when he get's damage. If he is in Izanagi Itachi can go ahead and blow him away. Madara would go poof and Itachi would be in his dimension. GG.Quote:
Itachi would probably get warped after the first "kill" of Madara in Izanagi, just like Konan as he is going to let his guard down. Expecialy if he usses Amaterasu or exploading clones.Quote:
As for the rest:
Itachi blocked his attack and tried to punch him. If not for that Kakashi would have followed with another attack. In other words he was forced. Now keep in mind that before Madara first try to warp Itachi the warping tech will be completly unknown to Itachi so he could replicate his fighting style used and showed vs Kakashi expecialy since Madara himself showed the same thing, coming out of the ground to warp someone. Itachi's fighting style is not to fight side by side with a clone (well most of the time) but use clones for very specific events to counter diferent techs.
All in all personaly i belive Madara is going to get his hands on him expecialy considering Madara himself is a very tactical mind.
Minato teleported and then Madara warped just after him. Its probably Zetsu's spores but considering himself is some type of Zetsu i am sure he can follow those.
This was close to instantly. Also personaly i belive he will know on who those Zetsu's spores are. When Madara warped after Minato he warped in front of him and looking direcly at him. This would imply that he knows the exact place where his target is.
Problem is he probably needs Zetsu to plant the spores.
Last edited by xXan; July 21, 2011 at 04:29 AM.
Every time Itachi uses Tsukuyomi, his left MS eye gets a panel. Right here, Itachi activates Tsukuyomi and gives Sasuke a long lecture. Ending here, Sasuke did not break out of Itachi's first Tsukuyomi. After the first tsukuyomi, the battle went on to a shuriken battle, which was succeeded by the second Tsukuyomi. And you know what happens after that. Why would Itachi use Tsukuyomi to lecture Sasuke? Perhaps Itachi wanted to prevent Zetsu from knowing that information about Madara has been leaked.
Madara only became weak because he controlled nine-tails. He won't have needed to form Akatsuki if he had the power control the tailed beasts. If he was indeed weak Madara that controlled the nine-tails, all he would need to do to capture the tailed beasts is to perform tactics similar to how he took control of the nine-tails.
A flaw to Izanagi is that it can't heal wounds inflicted before its activation. http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-15.html
Any physical damage caused by Tsukuyomi is caused by the victims physiological reaction to it, not Tsukuyomi itself. It's like how your heart beats fast when you get a nightmare.
Last edited by leafです; July 21, 2011 at 07:40 AM.
He is not using it there. He just shows his MS and then Kishi shows up his vision is all blury. I do belive there would be no need to show us his blury eyes when in genjutsu.Quote:
Not only because of the Kyuubi but using any MS jutsus. Madara also can only control the Kyuubi from what we know.Quote:
Last edited by xXan; July 21, 2011 at 07:55 AM.
- What the DB and Itachi said about breaking Tsukuyomi, was about the possibility of breaking it, not about it being something definite.
- How will Madara break out of Tsukuyomi if it's too painful to concentrate enough to break it?
- If Madara tries to warp, Itachi can create a KB behind Madara to cut his head off, before he's absorbed.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; July 21, 2011 at 09:13 AM.