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View Poll Results: Who wins?

Voters
163. You may not vote on this poll
  • Madara

    70 42.94%
  • Itachi

    93 57.06%
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Thread: Madara vs Itachi

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Itachi can use genjutsu to win. While in genjutsu, Madara will think he's warping, but won't be in reality. Itachi can kill him than.

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  3. #32
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted zerocooldx's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    iirc, previous experience is not relevant in the tournament and each shinobi only knows ordinary information available in the shinobi world, so even if Itachi had 8 years to learn things, he lost all specific intel when the fight began.
    Either way Madara's got nothing other then intangibility, gen-jutsu, and Izanagi. The first two are guaranteed to fail against Itachi. The third could work to an extent. Also with these rules then Madara isn't going to have any knowledge about Itachi's Gen-jutsu altering the perception of time and the sacred weapons that his Susano'o possesses. Since neither one seems to be ordinary information available in the shinobi world. Either way pre-Rinnegan Madara is not a big threat to a Itachi caliber shinobi. He would be annoying to fight at best.

    "Upon the back of his body not a wound of retreat scars it."
    One Piece is a series created by a genius, it's a masterpiece, it's like a fine wine, it only gets better with time.

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  5. #33
    Moemin 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member 3c's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Madara doesn't seem to be bad at genjutsu. On the contrary all the knowledge he has about how genjutsu works implies that he's quite good at it. Not to mention the fact that he kept Yagura, a perfect Jinchuuriki (thus controlling both the host and Bijuu at the same time) under perfect control for ages (years?). He also plans on putting the whole world under an eternal Tsukuyomi, if that doesn't imply that he already is good at it and will only get a huge power boost to put it on the whole world, then I don't know what it implies. I doubt genjutsu would work on Madara. The guy is an expert Sharingan user, whether he has MS/EMS or not, and we already know that basic Sharingan can break out of Itachi's most powerful genjutsu. There's no proof that Itachi put up a weak Tsukuyomi when he fought Sasuke even though he didn't go all out.
    Last edited by 3c; July 17, 2011 at 04:06 PM.

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  7. #34
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member EMS's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    we saw that amaterasu won't work on madara while sasuke MS was activated by madara's sharingan but this make me think that itachi knew that he couldn't defeat madara. if itachi had the power to defeat madara and he hates war and that was the main reason that he killed the whole clan with madara helped. itachi knew that madara will attack konoha eventually and even worse control the whole world if itachi knew that he got the power to defeat madara why he didn't do it?..itachi is one of my 5 top favorite but i believe itachi knew that he wasn't strong enought to defeat madara.

  8. #35
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DementedKirby's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    Madara doesn't seem to be bad at genjutsu. On the contrary all the knowledge he has about how genjutsu works implies that he's quite good at it. Not to mention the fact that he kept Yagura, a perfect Jinchuuriki (thus controlling both the host and Bijuu at the same time) under perfect control for ages (years?). He also plans on putting the whole world under an eternal Tsukuyomi, if that doesn't imply that he already is good at it and will only get a huge power boost to put it on the whole world, then I don't know what it implies. I doubt genjutsu would work on Madara. The guy is an expert Sharingan user, whether he has MS/EMS or not, and we already know that basic Sharingan can break out of Itachi's most powerful genjutsu. There's no proof that Itachi put up a weak Tsukuyomi when he fought Sasuke even though he didn't go all out.
    The fact that Itachi was letting him win is proof enough. But if you want more proof that a basic Sharingan can't break out of Itachi's most powerful genjutsu, then when Sasuke went looking for Itachi when Itachi was looking for Naruto, Sasuke attacked Itachi and his Sharingan was activated. He then proceed to not only be owned by Itachi, but to get Tsukoyomi-ed just for the shits and giggles. Sasuke was not able to break out of it. Another example? Fine. That same day, Itachi gave Kakashi a Tsukoyomi in which his control lasted for 72 simulated hours which were in fact a single second. Was Kakashi able to break out of the Tsukoyomi during the 72 simulated hours? No. You not only need to have a Sharingan but be a boss with it. Itachi's not hyped for no reason. He took out Shisui, who's almost just as hyped - and Itachi did that before obtaining the Mangekyou. In fact, that's how he awakened it; defeating his best friend.

    Madara was able to control Yagura and the Sanbi. I'm not gonna be a douche and say that it's unimpressive. However, Madara was able to control the baddest bijuu of all when it was in its prime (before Minato reduced its power) even when it was in its jinchuuriki (he extracted it from Kushina's body, controlling it from the inside - granted Kushina was totally drained, but he was still able to access a bijuu within its jinchuuriki). So what's a Three-tails against someone who could control the Nine-tails? So to me, saying that his control over Yagura is such a remarkable feat, when control over the Kyuubi is a feat within itself.
    Last edited by DementedKirby; July 17, 2011 at 04:15 PM.

  9. #36
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    - There would been no point in using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke if he didn't plan for Sasuke to break out of it.

    - genjutsu only has to work for a moment.

  10. #37
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted zerocooldx's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    Madara doesn't seem to be bad at genjutsu. On the contrary all the knowledge he has about how genjutsu works implies that he's quite good at it. Not to mention the fact that he kept Yagura, a perfect Jinchuuriki (thus controlling both the host and Bijuu at the same time) under perfect control for ages (years?). He also plans on putting the whole world under an eternal Tsukuyomi, if that doesn't imply that he already is good at it and will only get a huge power boost to put it on the whole world, then I don't know what it implies. I doubt genjutsu would work on Madara. The guy is an expert Sharingan user, whether he has MS/EMS or not, and we already know that basic Sharingan can break out of Itachi's most powerful genjutsu. There's no proof that Itachi put up a weak Tsukuyomi when he fought Sasuke even though he didn't go all out.
    Other the the fact that Itachi had no intent to harm or kill Sasuke. And the fact that Danzo basically said that Sasuke's Gen-jutsu were mere child's play compared to Itachis'. As it stands right now, no one has demonstrated to be as good as let alone better at Gen-jutsu then Itachi. Mind control Gen-jutsu aren't just Madara's forte, Itachi was the first name that the Alliance brought up when talking about the possibility of mind control. Madara said that he was a former shell of himself, which Itachi said as well. Not to mention that Madara's Moon's Eye plan is contingent on him possessing the Rinnegan. Which he doesn't have in this tournament.

    "Upon the back of his body not a wound of retreat scars it."
    One Piece is a series created by a genius, it's a masterpiece, it's like a fine wine, it only gets better with time.

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  12. #38
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Didn't Madara say he couldn't beat Itachi?

  13. #39
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    No way lol. Madara just respected his deal. There is no way Itachi could have stop the entire Aka from attacking Konoha. Madara was just smart enough to w8 for Itachi to die and in that time use him for his own needs.
    If Madara was simply respecting his deal with Itachi, why did he jump at the chance to send Pain into Konoha once Itachi was died? Madara was clearly waiting for that moment. Now Madara might not have been outright terrified of Itachi, but he clearly considering Itachi a threat. After all, he knew first hand what Itachi was capable of and he even state that had Itachi known everything about him (Izanagi probably), he would have been dead. That statement pretty much shows that Madara was cautious of Itachi and personally believed that Itachi could kill him with the right information. So the only question that remains is whether Itachi would be strong enough to figure out Madara's abilities before he was warped away and I think he would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    There's no way Itachi left Madara for Sasuke, he didn't even want Madara to get in contact with Sasuke(!) and therefore planted the Amaterasu trap in Sasuke's eye. He feared that his plan would fail and that Sasuke would be tainted by Madara, and as such made a back up plan by giving Naruto a crowjob. I repeat, there's no way Itachi would leave the job for Sasuke if he had a chance of preventing it, that much is painfully obvious. Itachi loved Sasuke more than anything, more than Konoha, he would never take the risk. Itachi is smart and rational, not stupid.
    I disagree. It seems obvious that Itachi intended for Sasuke to gain EMS and take Madara out. That pretty much the only explanation as to why Itachi when through the trouble of explaining the history of EMS and going through the act of "taking" Sasuke's eyes in order to defeat Madara. He fully intended for Sasuke to win and finish what he started. The problem of course was that sasuke didn't have MS at that time, thus Itachi had to modify his plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    I don't know how many times I've said this, but it's obvious that Itachi had no clue how to kill Madara and as such didn't even attempt on taking his life. I personally can't understand how Itachi didn't know about Izanagi, but I don't think he did. In fact I think that's what saved Madara from his Amaterasu trap, and that's what Madara referred to as "kept secrets from Itachi". If he didn't use Izanagi there, it must have been a standard suck in the flames no jutsu, meaning Itachi didn't even know about his warp jutsu. Either way the point stands, Itachi didn't know how to kill Madara no matter what he knew and didn't know about him. So now you ask, why didn't Madara just take the fight to him then? Because he knew that Itachi would eventually die anyway. He had full knowledge of Itachi's plans and knew that with patience he would get rid of him for free, so why take the risk of fighting him? Besides he needed what happened to happen to convert Sasuke to his cause.
    While its clear that Itachi probably didn't know about Izanagi and thus couldn't have killed Madara, Madara made it clear that with such knowledge, he would be dead. So it wasn't simply about being patience. Considering Sasuke didn't have much trouble figuring out how Izanagi worked during battle, Itachi wouldn't have had any greater trouble doing likewise in battle too. And unlike Danzo who could use it multiple times during battle, Madara had at most two uses before he would not only be killable, but blind. Even with him holding the advantage, it wouldn't have taken much for Itachi to figure things out and kill him. Thus the whole reason Madara waited until after Itachi was dead to do what he wanted instead of pissing Itachi off beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    Anyway this fight has been predictable to happen since the tournament's beginning and I've already given it a load of thought. Madara should take this, how? He outlasts Itachi easily. Itachi is not a chakra powerhouse, he can't keep up Susano'o for too long either going by his final fight. If he uses it when he's fresh at the start of the fight, he'll probably be able to maintain it longer, but it's all useless. We have no proof that Totsuka will work on Madara, and Madara is freaking fast and keeps appearing under/behind people to suck them up like he did against Torune. That's all he would have to do. Minato got away because he had a teleportation technique that is even faster than Madara's, Itachi has no such technique and would get wtfblitzed and sucked up into Madara's dimension. Susano'o is useless, Madara would juse appear inside it.
    Since this starts as a straight up fight, Itachi would have the advantage. Madara won't be able to sneak up behind him like he did against Minato, so Itachi should be able to maintain his distance while employing his genjutsu and clones. By all accounts, Itachi's speed and reflexes should rival Minato's and Ee's, so he should be able to react and counter madara just fine. If Madara does get close enough to grab him, Itachi can either do similar to Konan and launch a technique like Amaterasu while Madara is attempting to warp him away or employ Susanoo, which would at the very least delay Madara from warping Itachi long enough for him to get away. Itachi kept Susanoo up quite a while against Sasuke, long enough to deal with Orochimaru and slowly walk towards Sasuke. It may not be a long time, but it's long enough for Itachi to do what he needs to do against Madara.

    Also, I would question Madara's ability to appear inside Susanoo. It may look empty, but it's seems to be filled with chakra that acts like more protection from what we saw with Sasuke. There's likely no empty space for Madara to teleport into.

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  15. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DementedKirby's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
    Didn't Madara say he couldn't beat Itachi?
    Not quite, but he hinted at it.

    ---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    If Madara was simply respecting his deal with Itachi, why did he jump at the chance to send Pain into Konoha once Itachi was died? Madara was clearly waiting for that moment. Now Madara might not have been outright terrified of Itachi, but he clearly considering Itachi a threat. After all, he knew first hand what Itachi was capable of and he even state that had Itachi known everything about him (Izanagi probably), he would have been dead. That statement pretty much shows that Madara was cautious of Itachi and personally believed that Itachi could kill him with the right information. So the only question that remains is whether Itachi would be strong enough to figure out Madara's abilities before he was warped away and I think he would be.

    I disagree. It seems obvious that Itachi intended for Sasuke to gain EMS and take Madara out. That pretty much the only explanation as to why Itachi when through the trouble of explaining the history of EMS and going through the act of "taking" Sasuke's eyes in order to defeat Madara. He fully intended for Sasuke to win and finish what he started. The problem of course was that sasuke didn't have MS at that time, thus Itachi had to modify his plan.

    While its clear that Itachi probably didn't know about Izanagi and thus couldn't have killed Madara, Madara made it clear that with such knowledge, he would be dead. So it wasn't simply about being patience. Considering Sasuke didn't have much trouble figuring out how Izanagi worked during battle, Itachi wouldn't have had any greater trouble doing likewise in battle too. And unlike Danzo who could use it multiple times during battle, Madara had at most two uses before he would not only be killable, but blind. Even with him holding the advantage, it wouldn't have taken much for Itachi to figure things out and kill him. Thus the whole reason Madara waited until after Itachi was dead to do what he wanted instead of pissing Itachi off beforehand.

    Since this starts as a straight up fight, Itachi would have the advantage. Madara won't be able to sneak up behind him like he did against Minato, so Itachi should be able to maintain his distance while employing his genjutsu and clones. By all accounts, Itachi's speed and reflexes should rival Minato's and Ee's, so he should be able to react and counter madara just fine. If Madara does get close enough to grab him, Itachi can either do similar to Konan and launch a technique like Amaterasu while Madara is attempting to warp him away or employ Susanoo, which would at the very least delay Madara from warping Itachi long enough for him to get away. Itachi kept Susanoo up quite a while against Sasuke, long enough to deal with Orochimaru and slowly walk towards Sasuke. It may not be a long time, but it's long enough for Itachi to do what he needs to do against Madara.

    Also, I would question Madara's ability to appear inside Susanoo. It may look empty, but it's seems to be filled with chakra that acts like more protection from what we saw with Sasuke. There's likely no empty space for Madara to teleport into.
    Exactly! I don't think I can thank you enough for every single you word you just said. Fucking brilliant!

  16. #41
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member biggchiefmo's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    You can tell that its almost the end of the tourney because we are getting down to the almost impossible to call fights, Madara vs Itachi is uber hard to call, I mean honestly neither one would want to fight the other if at all possible, this we know because they both wanted the other out of the picture but were too cautious to make an attempt at the others life, Itachi being the first to do so only after his death and via Sasuke.

    I believe Madara would have to take his mask off and fight at his limits, but with him only using 2 jutsus in the manga we cant really speculate(not that its allowed anyway) on what hes truly capable of, since he's Uchiha at the very least he adept with fire techs. On the other hand we've seen a lot of what Itachi can do despite his limited battle scenes. Its probably safe to assume that genjutsu would just lead to a stalemate, so the two question left begging to be answered is "Can Madara's intangibility jutsu work against the Sword of Totsuka?", and "Can Madara slip through Susanoo's defenses with his space time jutsu to suck Itachi into his mask?" Since we have no instances to go on with on this I'm completely baffled. Not sure if either can actually hurt the other, so I'll reserve judgement and hear more testimony until the last day of voting, at which time if i'm still undecided, I'll just vote for Itachi because I like him better.

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  18. #42
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by DementedKirby View Post
    The fact that Itachi was letting him win is proof enough. But if you want more proof that a basic Sharingan can't break out of Itachi's most powerful genjutsu, then when Sasuke went looking for Itachi when Itachi was looking for Naruto, Sasuke attacked Itachi and his Sharingan was activated. He then proceed to not only be owned by Itachi, but to get Tsukoyomi-ed just for the shits and giggles. Sasuke was not able to break out of it. Another example? Fine. That same day, Itachi gave Kakashi a Tsukoyomi in which his control lasted for 72 simulated hours which were in fact a single second. Was Kakashi able to break out of the Tsukoyomi during the 72 simulated hours? No. You not only need to have a Sharingan but be a boss with it. Itachi's not hyped for no reason. He took out Shisui, who's almost just as hyped - and Itachi did that before obtaining the Mangekyou. In fact, that's how he awakened it; defeating his best friend.

    Madara was able to control Yagura and the Sanbi. I'm not gonna be a douche and say that it's unimpressive. However, Madara was able to control the baddest bijuu of all when it was in its prime (before Minato reduced its power) even when it was in its jinchuuriki (he extracted it from Kushina's body, controlling it from the inside - granted Kushina was totally drained, but he was still able to access a bijuu within its jinchuuriki). So what's a Three-tails against someone who could control the Nine-tails? So to me, saying that his control over Yagura is such a remarkable feat, when control over the Kyuubi is a feat within itself.
    First things first, yes controlling Kyuubi and ripping it out of Kushina was a great genjutsu feat too. Of course I would agree to that.

    Secondly, are you really bringing up part 1 Sasuke and Kakashi to this argument? Kakashi was nowhere near the mastery level that he is now in part 1 in terms of Sharingan mastery. Having obtained Mangekyou says enough about his improvement. Despite that he's not a full blooded Uchiha and thus has "limited" potential with the Sharingan. As for Sasuke, he was a total noob with his Sharingan back in part 1, how do you expect him to break out of Tsukuyomi? Sorry but your part 1 arguments are useless. The fact is that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi with a regular Sharingan, Itachi didn't fake it, he got pwned by the side effects which is evidence of it being broken not Itachi intentionally breaking it (not that you said he did).

    "You played your part exactly as he predicted", Madara says enough. Itachi "knew" that Sasuke could break Tsukuyomi, so he threw it at him to push him to his limits to free Orochimaru. While I admit that Amaterasu was obviously aimed at a convenient spot (his CS2 wing) and thus he went easy on Sasuke with Amaterasu (like Madara said on the previous page in my link, had Itachi wanted Sasuke would have been dead), there's NO evidence that he went easy on him with Tsukuyomi, as such there's no evidence that a superb basic Sharingan user (Madara) can't break Itachi's Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by zerocooldx View Post
    Other the the fact that Itachi had no intent to harm or kill Sasuke. And the fact that Danzo basically said that Sasuke's Gen-jutsu were mere child's play compared to Itachis'. As it stands right now, no one has demonstrated to be as good as let alone better at Gen-jutsu then Itachi. Mind control Gen-jutsu aren't just Madara's forte, Itachi was the first name that the Alliance brought up when talking about the possibility of mind control. Madara said that he was a former shell of himself, which Itachi said as well. Not to mention that Madara's Moon's Eye plan is contingent on him possessing the Rinnegan. Which he doesn't have in this tournament.
    Being Itachi level with Tsukuyomi =/= breaking the same level of genjutsu. You can have genjutsu breaking abilities while sucking at genjutsu yourself. If that wasn't true then how do people know how to perfectly well break genjutsu but suck at genjutsu themselves?

    The Alliance doesn't even know that Madara controlled Yagura, as such don't know that he has that genjutsu ability. Nor do they know (or knew) that Madara attacked Konoha and did everything he did 16 years ago. Itachi being the only awesome genjutsu user being brought up proves nothing.

    @Rikudou King:
    I don't have time to reply to all of your post right now, but I couldn't keep away from replying to one part. Are you really saying that Itachi's speed and reflexes = A & Minato? Come on get real. Itachi might have dodged some pretty neat attacks, had some awesome moves and have a 5 in speed, but the guy is not at that level. You have absolutely no proof that he is capable of such speed and reflex feats. That's pure assumption. No one in the manga have ever put Itachi in their boat. No one ever said "A has speed and reflexes equal to the Fourth Hokage and Uchiha Itachi", it was always Minato and A. Itachi is not in their company. He's deadly fast but they are in a league of their own.

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  20. #43
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Here's the explanation given in the manga (by Zetsu) as to how Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, but according to Danzo Sasuke was far below Itachi. During Itachi's battle with Sasuke he had the far superior tool the Mangekyou Sharingan, and was so skilled with MS genjutsu that he can even control perception of time at his whim.

    Using Zetsu's analogy Sasuke shouldn't have been able to break out of Tsukuyomi with just 3 tomoe.
    Last edited by En Yang Ji; July 17, 2011 at 05:27 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Nicholas.Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    I still think that there is a chance that the Sword of Totsuka could harm an intangible Madara because it's ethereal....

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  24. #45
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara vs Itachi

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas.Sama View Post
    I still think that there is a chance that the Sword of Totsuka could harm an intangible Madara because it's ethereal....
    It can't, Madara is not realy there so it has nothing to cut.

    @Rikudou King


    Again Madara would have no problem to kill Itachi if he realy wanted to. The only thing holding him back was the deal and the fact that Itachi was usefull to him. Also he jumped at the ocasion to attack Konoha then as it was the right time to do it.
    Last edited by xXan; July 17, 2011 at 06:08 PM.

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