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Translations: Gintama 510 (2)
sasuke was able to kill danzo even though he used izanagi several times, so i don't think it would be hard for itachi to beat madara. but again we know that madara is way stronger than danzo but itachi is also way stronger than sasuke, copared to each others susanoo, tsukyomi and ameterasu.
The problem is, Danzou wasn't going in for the kill or couldn't whenever he used Izanagi. When Tobi used Izanagi, he went right in for the kill. This is the problem Itachi faces: Tobi will go or try to go for the kill after using Izanagi, although it's debatable how he goes about this without weaponry.
Itachi can't use exploding bunshin either until he's sure Tobi won't be able to dodge otherwise Tobi will realize it's a bunshin that can explode and go intangible. Having a Sharingan, Tobi is more likely to get out of Itachi's genjutsu, and we have seen Tobi isn't averse to masochism to get his way.
And also take note that Madara's Izanagi isnt the same as Danzo's...
Danzo had 10 Sharingan and Madara claimed that somehow, Danzo and Oro were able to make the jutsu last longer, each eyes lasting 1 minute.
Danzo could activate the jutsu and have it up for 10 minutes making him completly invincible for that amount of time, while Madara needs to activate the jutsu the moment he is in trouble, his Izanagi is a one time saver and he needs to activate it before it's too late.
Madara will only resort to Izanagi if his phasing ability cannot save him, so in all honesty, unless it was some kind of Amaterasu hitting him and sticking with him, i'd find it hard that Madara would activate Izanagi enough to tank something he cannot activate his phasing ability fast enough to avoid.
Izanagi was only very usefull against Konan as he knew that for a set amount of time, he wouldnt be able to do anything but fall between the ocean walls, he knew he had to activate Izanagi and he had the time to do so and fool Konan.
Attempting to teleport what would turn out to be an exploding bunshin as Itachi likes to use his bunshins a lot in the start of a fight would proove to be fatal to Madara.
He wouldnt have the time to activate Izanagi and likely wouldnt have the time to react at all as there is no seals written on paper like he was able to witness his eyes prior to explosion, and yet he was greatly wounded, an exploding bunshin would only do at the very least more damage than that as he won't be able to anticipate it.
Either way i'm giving this to Itachi, he has to reflexes speed to react to the jutsu, if needed, he can use Susano to protect himself against it, and above all, his uses of bunshin is so fast that people can,t simply keep track of it, teleporting a bunshin is a no no for Madara, and given they don't know each other's ability, it's fair to say Itachi, just like he did against kakashi and co. will jump in with a bunshin.
As for the Madara and Itachi debate about how Madara never made moves against the leaf and so on, i don't think we can judge what exactly comes from this.
We know Madara and Itachi made a deal
We know Madara was glad Itachi had died and now could go on to destroy the leaf
We know Madara had plans for Sasuke after Itachi's death.
Was Madara scared of Itachi?
Who knows, but we know he was always amazed by Itachi which says a lot, and he said that had he not kept his 'secret' from Itachi's eyes, he would be dead today.
Which means Itachi has the power to defeat Madara, and we know what his secret is, if Itachi witnesses Madara's warping ability at least once without getting killed, which he can, the tide is gonna turn in his favor.
Any debate regarding Madara (tobi) fighting can be a pain, as the man itself is made of a total of three things, a Sharingan, a phasing ability and a time-space ninjutsu. He is a tricky SOB, but i see Itachi taking him down nonetheless, Itachi isnt only a one trick poney, he is versatile and pretty much is flawless while Madara is a hit or miss, and if he misses here, he'll end up in his deathbed.
Anyways, i don,t see this fight being a genjutsu battle, Itachi may attempt it, but i see Madara being able to overcome his genjutsu, he may suffer damage or may even loose due to genjutsu, but as much as i like Itachi,s genjutsu prowess, i doubt the fight will end with this.
What will matter the most is Itachi's speed and especially his handseal speed which we know is so fast that a Sharingan can't keep with.
Itachi's intelligence isnt to question either, he has the tools to defeat Madara.
Last edited by insid3rkill3r; July 17, 2011 at 10:35 PM.
Also it was probably a typo but I think you meant that Minato had the better reflexes.
Itachi and Sasuke are definitely above average (and by a lot too) when it comes to speed but they are no where close to the fastest ninja's like Naruto, Ee and Minato.
---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------
The whole fight likely comes down to Itachi's clever usage of genjutsu, similar to Sasuke's usage against Danzo to create a split second opening to lop Madara's head off or blow him up with a Explosion Clone.
Itachi has the tools to defeat madara.? i don't think so.. itachi can't even kill madara with his last ditch effort. madara is a beast and a powerful ninja. Itachi already knows that he can't surpass/defeat madara. And madara is itachi's master.
And maybe madara was the one who taught itachi the power of his MS..
Madara never afraid to itachi.. They have just a deal. A deal not to attack the konoha. And the only reason why madara never betrayed itachi is that itachi has the power to ruin madara's plan. Madara can kill itachi but itachi can also kill the entire akatsuki, except nagato. Not attacking the konoha for the exchange of itachi's power is enough for madara not to betray him. Madara never afraid to fight itachi at all. But he was indeed afaid for itachi to ruin his life long plan.
But going about Itachi not killing Madara with a seal he put inside Sasuke? That was an Amaterasu setting off from dead man's seal... are you serious? It's not a full well and alive Itachi clashing against Madara, it's one technique among many that Itachi has in his arsenal. Just saying. Madara is Madara, aka tobi, don,t try to hype so much unless he deserves it, he has a tricky arsenal and thats about it so far.
And btw, a 'last ditch effort' is something you do when youre desesperate, when you cannot do anything else. Itachi was on the verge of death and was like pretty much ;
Hey, im dying pretty soon so while i have some chakra left, why don't i just give an extra protection to Sasuke to make sure i put the chances on my side? The fact that you use he couldnt even kill Madara that way shows that you fail to grasp the concept behind those words, his last ditch effect is actually not as valuable as what he himself would have had put on the table to try and defeat Madara.
A Last ditch effort is a nerf more than anything else, Itachi couldnt do anything than what he did as he was dying.
You see if you werent so much about trolling maybe i'd take the time to argue with you but i honestly have stopped even responding to your post because of things like this lol.
Who told you Itachi knew he couldnt surpass/defeat Madara? After all, the quote you got claiming Itachi called Madara his 'tutor' was claimed in the part as when Itachi said he was the only one who could surpass Prime Madara. Whats your point?
By teaching him what? By telling hey buddy, there is doujutsu you can use, and thats how you use it? Sasuke did it all by himself because thats how it works, it worked the same way for Itachi. For all we know, Itachi learned about the EMS from Madara, nothing else.Quote:
EIther way, thats doesnt change anything about Itachi's skills, he is as strong as he is because he's pulling his own strings, troll much yet again.
So now, Itachi can take all the Akatsuki by himself which means ;
Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori, Deidara and Kisame
And Madara who is so damn stronger than Itachi because he is Itachi's master and was 'maybe' the one who taught him his power and also wields power to be able to teleport WHERE EVER he wants was scared that Itachi, all alone would wipe them all out without him being unable to interfere ?
If Madara was so superior to Itachi and knew it himself, he wouldnt have respected a deal he made with a 13 years old kid that could kill his entire crew and would of had actually killed him to prevent it all since he was strong enough to do so.
See, your talk in incoherent.
Claiming Madara would have spared Itachi because of the respect he had for him or because he 'foresaw' the potential to use Sasuke at the end would have made sense because it looks like this now in a way, but clearly you have missunderstood their relationship so damn much it's not funny.
Itachi being so inferior to Madara yet so big of a threat at the same time is laughable and it doesnt make any damn sense.
If Madara would have let Itachi live within Akatsuki and thought he had what it took to wipe the whole organisarion by himself, it means that Madara would have had been weaker than Itachi, otherwise he would have killed him before such thing happened.
BIG BOSS MADARA > Itachi > 5 Akatsuki members
Quote Madara ; I'll make a deal for the heck of it with this guy, and since he can wipe all my other members, i won't do anything to him cause i'm scared, even tho me going against him means i would kill him since i'm stronger, but i'm scared that while i'm killing him, he will be able to kill all the other 5....... wait, w%$t the f?%k am i saying? If i can woop his ass out, how is he gonna ruin my plan in the first place? No wonder Yondaime wooped my ass, i suck at planning shit out.
Madara either greatly respected Itachi or feared him to an extent or simply wanted Sasuke by his side in the end, nothing else.
One thing is clear tho, Itachi was troubling him, he said it himself, so he wasnt sleeping so well with itachi arround ,even if that was part of his plan.
And in all honesty, looking at the translations of chapter 404 ;
In the first, you can see that Madara saw Itachi as a great obstacle.
He did not only go along to respect the deal but the ENSURE the plan would go smootly.
In the 2nd one, Madara claims Itachi was standing in his way, and note the 2nd partQuote:
Not only was he keeping his deal with Itachi intact, but he was scared of Itachi, and it was ALONG with the deal, why he had not made moves against the leaf, it wasnt only for the deal, but both.
Itachi was a threat, enough that he didnt want to risk going against him.
Last edited by insid3rkill3r; July 18, 2011 at 04:07 AM.
I see it this way. Madara could've killed Itachi if he wanted to, BUT in his current condition it wouldn't have been such a good idea to do so. Had he done so he would've been left even more weakened than he already was. So instead, he decided to go the easy way around. He had already waited all of Kushina's life for that one moment, waiting a couple more years for Itachi to be killed by his brother (he did know Itachi's plan all along) would be nothing for him. It's sort of how he's letting Kabuto tag along with him during this war. He's receiving some extra-help to fulfill his goals but if Kabuto betrays him Madara will kill him (no offense to any Kabuto fans out there).
During the summit, Shi told us that Ee and Minato normally had comparable reflexes, but with his Lightning Cloak active, his reflexes were superior. By what has been established in the series, Sasuke wouldn't be that far away from matching their speed and Itachi should be even.
I know what Madara this is. And btw Madara can warp people, that's basically the only offensive technique he has so of course it's allowed. It counts as a win by incapacitating the opponent, in this unique case some prefer it being called "battle removal". And where did you see Madara struggling against Fuu and Torune? What I saw was a guy basically playing with two rats, fine he lost an arm but that's only because he's careless as losing an arm has no real effect on him. Besides that loss was a clear plot device to show us that Madara's body is heavily made up by Zetsu material, a revelation to further hint at his identity and body's condition. That you think he struggled against two Root ninja when it was a clear A) play scene + B) plot device that he lost the arm further proves that Madara is being heavily underestimated in this tournament and in his previous state.
Itachi might be faster than Sasuke, but he's also half blind which I'm sure I don't need to remind you of. Itachi's condition is the same as against Sasuke, and this is what happened because of his poor eyesight. An attack that should normally be dodged "easily" hit him, unless you believe he was hit by a sharp giant shuriken on purpose to make Sasuke win. Itachi is not healthy, he has the same eyesight (which just won't get worse) and has the same condition, chakra level, speed, reflexes etc that he had against Sasuke. His condition just won't make him cough up blood and roll over and die after 10 minutes of fighting.
Last edited by 3c; July 18, 2011 at 05:47 AM.
When I read whose fighting who, I thought: I won't vote. The next thing after reading some of the comments and I came to conclusion that I will vote for Itachi. If there's a shinobi capable of defeating Tobi <maybe not in a similar fashion like Minato did> its Itachi. I mean, even in manga Tobi seems to be refrained from wrong-doings against Konoha by Itachi, so in other words he respected him <seems he didn't even want to kill him or was afraid he would lose> And vice versa: it seems Itachi also wasn't capable of probably killing Tobi thats why he didn't make any attempt during his life-time <unless there will be new info about their relationship ^^>. I think they were pretty equal <of course talking about Tobi in this tournament, not the 'new' one with Rinnegan eye>
So I will go with Itachi. I will just note that I made an assumption that Sword of Totsuka is capable of sealing intangible Tobi <plz don't comment on this one that we don't know or sth, because Its my assumption, I don't have any evidence for that and someone doesn't have any evidence it cannot work either ; ]>
tobi hasn't ever shown his mangekyou sharingan,then he is nothingI vote itachi because he is better,especially in genjutsu.
This is the weirdest topic I've seen in a while. I knew Itachi fanboys would be up and about but some of these arguments are so farfetch'd.
-Itachi's a genius so he'd figure out Tobi's intangibility secrets quickly?
Again, this is the famous "Shikamaru argument" that is illogical. You cannot come to proper conclusions without certain information, but this "Shikamaru argument" basically implies that because the person is a genius, he'll magically know.
The secrets of Tobi's intangibility are as follows:
(a) He can only be intangible for 5 minutes straight
(b) Before he warps, he has to turn solid
(c) Warping himself is slower than when he warps someone
Now, how can Itachi even know any of this? The only way you'd know (a) is if he sends a barrage of attacks and times how long Tobi stays intangible. There is almost no way he'd figure out (b) during the battle unless some lucky coincidence happens. There is also almost no way he'd figure out (c) because he'd have to compare the speed between the two instances and the only time he'd be able the time he takes to warp another person is when he, Itachi, is warped. If Itachi is warped, it's game over. Tobi would just drop him in a volcano or something.
-Itachi put Kakashi in genjutsu even though he had the Sharingan, so he can probably do it to Tobi
Except that Tobi has a Uchiha body (until proven otherwise) and has more than twice the amount of experience with it than both Kakashi and Itachi. Tobi has been to EMS and back. Yea, Itachi's genjutsu works well on non-Sharingan users and Sharingan users with less experience...but against a person who is supposedly like 100+ years old and probably activated the Sharingan in his teens. Tobi's Sharingan experience far outweighs Itachi. Even if Tobi was an idiot, he's had 3-4 times the amount of years to perfect his use. Fortunately, Tobi was not an idiot, but instead the top of his clan back then. He was the Itachi way before Itachi's father was even born.
-The reason Tobi kept his promise not to attack Konoha was because he was afraid of Itachi
Or it's because Itachi is a strong asset to have on your side rather than against you. Even if I can demolish a person in battle, if he's a good asset, I'd want him to be with me than against me because it helps my plan. After Itachi died, he's not an asset to anyone so basically Tobi said f*ck my promise.
Also, Tobi is buttering up Sasuke to keep Sasuke on his side because Sasuke is an asset to him. Nevertheless, he told Sasuke that if he went against Akatsuki, he'd kill him. He's not afraid of Sasuke but he values him as a useful tool just like Itachi and Nagato.
-Itachi can easily keep his distance
Uhm what? The guy can teleport behind you no matter where you are. How can you possibly keep your distance?
-Itachi has Susanoo
Yes, and? Tobi can teleport inside. There is nothing...and I repeat NOTHING that implies that he cannot teleport right next to Itachi inside and stab him.
-Itachi has reflexes rivaling Ae and Minato
Alright, now you're just making things up. Nothing in the manga implies that.
Anyway, I see Tobi winning simply with a kunai. You can't hit him and he can teleport behind you whenever he wants. Btw, if you remember, Tobi escaped Amaterasu already so that's not an out.
Even tough Tobi has more experience with the sharingan, I'm pretty sure Itachi could do what Sasuke did against Danzo: Make Tobi see one second before, giving Itachi time to stab him in the head.