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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Itachi can use genjutsu to win. While in genjutsu, Madara will think he's warping, but won't be in reality. Itachi can kill him than.
Madara doesn't seem to be bad at genjutsu. On the contrary all the knowledge he has about how genjutsu works implies that he's quite good at it. Not to mention the fact that he kept Yagura, a perfect Jinchuuriki (thus controlling both the host and Bijuu at the same time) under perfect control for ages (years?). He also plans on putting the whole world under an eternal Tsukuyomi, if that doesn't imply that he already is good at it and will only get a huge power boost to put it on the whole world, then I don't know what it implies. I doubt genjutsu would work on Madara. The guy is an expert Sharingan user, whether he has MS/EMS or not, and we already know that basic Sharingan can break out of Itachi's most powerful genjutsu. There's no proof that Itachi put up a weak Tsukuyomi when he fought Sasuke even though he didn't go all out.
Last edited by 3c; July 17, 2011 at 04:06 PM.
we saw that amaterasu won't work on madara while sasuke MS was activated by madara's sharingan but this make me think that itachi knew that he couldn't defeat madara. if itachi had the power to defeat madara and he hates war and that was the main reason that he killed the whole clan with madara helped. itachi knew that madara will attack konoha eventually and even worse control the whole world if itachi knew that he got the power to defeat madara why he didn't do it?..itachi is one of my 5 top favorite but i believe itachi knew that he wasn't strong enought to defeat madara.
Madara was able to control Yagura and the Sanbi. I'm not gonna be a douche and say that it's unimpressive. However, Madara was able to control the baddest bijuu of all when it was in its prime (before Minato reduced its power) even when it was in its jinchuuriki (he extracted it from Kushina's body, controlling it from the inside - granted Kushina was totally drained, but he was still able to access a bijuu within its jinchuuriki). So what's a Three-tails against someone who could control the Nine-tails? So to me, saying that his control over Yagura is such a remarkable feat, when control over the Kyuubi is a feat within itself.
Last edited by DementedKirby; July 17, 2011 at 04:15 PM.
- There would been no point in using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke if he didn't plan for Sasuke to break out of it.
- genjutsu only has to work for a moment.
Didn't Madara say he couldn't beat Itachi?
Also, I would question Madara's ability to appear inside Susanoo. It may look empty, but it's seems to be filled with chakra that acts like more protection from what we saw with Sasuke. There's likely no empty space for Madara to teleport into.
he hinted at it.
---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------
You can tell that its almost the end of the tourney because we are getting down to the almost impossible to call fights, Madara vs Itachi is uber hard to call, I mean honestly neither one would want to fight the other if at all possible, this we know because they both wanted the other out of the picture but were too cautious to make an attempt at the others life, Itachi being the first to do so only after his death and via Sasuke.
I believe Madara would have to take his mask off and fight at his limits, but with him only using 2 jutsus in the manga we cant really speculate(not that its allowed anyway) on what hes truly capable of, since he's Uchiha at the very least he adept with fire techs. On the other hand we've seen a lot of what Itachi can do despite his limited battle scenes. Its probably safe to assume that genjutsu would just lead to a stalemate, so the two question left begging to be answered is "Can Madara's intangibility jutsu work against the Sword of Totsuka?", and "Can Madara slip through Susanoo's defenses with his space time jutsu to suck Itachi into his mask?" Since we have no instances to go on with on this I'm completely baffled. Not sure if either can actually hurt the other, so I'll reserve judgement and hear more testimony until the last day of voting, at which time if i'm still undecided, I'll just vote for Itachi because I like him better.
Secondly, are you really bringing up part 1 Sasuke and Kakashi to this argument? Kakashi was nowhere near the mastery level that he is now in part 1 in terms of Sharingan mastery. Having obtained Mangekyou says enough about his improvement. Despite that he's not a full blooded Uchiha and thus has "limited" potential with the Sharingan. As for Sasuke, he was a total noob with his Sharingan back in part 1, how do you expect him to break out of Tsukuyomi? Sorry but your part 1 arguments are useless. The fact is that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi with a regular Sharingan, Itachi didn't fake it, he got pwned by the side effects which is evidence of it being broken not Itachi intentionally breaking it (not that you said he did).
"You played your part exactly as he predicted", Madara says enough. Itachi "knew" that Sasuke could break Tsukuyomi, so he threw it at him to push him to his limits to free Orochimaru. While I admit that Amaterasu was obviously aimed at a convenient spot (his CS2 wing) and thus he went easy on Sasuke with Amaterasu (like Madara said on the previous page in my link, had Itachi wanted Sasuke would have been dead), there's NO evidence that he went easy on him with Tsukuyomi, as such there's no evidence that a superb basic Sharingan user (Madara) can't break Itachi's Tsukuyomi.
The Alliance doesn't even know that Madara controlled Yagura, as such don't know that he has that genjutsu ability. Nor do they know (or knew) that Madara attacked Konoha and did everything he did 16 years ago. Itachi being the only awesome genjutsu user being brought up proves nothing.
I don't have time to reply to all of your post right now, but I couldn't keep away from replying to one part. Are you really saying that Itachi's speed and reflexes = A & Minato? Come on get real. Itachi might have dodged some pretty neat attacks, had some awesome moves and have a 5 in speed, but the guy is not at that level. You have absolutely no proof that he is capable of such speed and reflex feats. That's pure assumption. No one in the manga have ever put Itachi in their boat. No one ever said "A has speed and reflexes equal to the Fourth Hokage and Uchiha Itachi", it was always Minato and A. Itachi is not in their company. He's deadly fast but they are in a league of their own.
Here's the explanation given in the manga (by Zetsu) as to how Sasuke can break Tsukuyomi, but according to Danzo Sasuke was far below Itachi. During Itachi's battle with Sasuke he had the far superior tool the Mangekyou Sharingan, and was so skilled with MS genjutsu that he can even control perception of time at his whim.
Using Zetsu's analogy Sasuke shouldn't have been able to break out of Tsukuyomi with just 3 tomoe.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; July 17, 2011 at 05:27 PM.
I still think that there is a chance that the Sword of Totsuka could harm an intangible Madara because it's ethereal....
Again Madara would have no problem to kill Itachi if he realy wanted to. The only thing holding him back was the deal and the fact that Itachi was usefull to him. Also he jumped at the ocasion to attack Konoha then as it was the right time to do it.
Last edited by xXan; July 17, 2011 at 06:08 PM.