Itachi vs Minato

[Rikudou King]

It wasn't implied. It was pretty much shown through their feats. Minato was able to react to A's fastest attack/Kyuubi's attack/Madara's wrap and etc. While A wasn't even able to react to Sasuke's counter attack even when he was cloaked. Bee was in midair at that point though so he probably couldn't even do much if he wanted to.
It's different since Itachi was fighting someone slower than him then. Minato is very well as fast if not even faster than Itachi and that is where the disadvantage starts.

It was in a panel of its own during the shuriken fight though. And something was happening in your scan as well since Itachi was using his crows as well.

That's faulty logic. Sasuke has the Sharingan, which trumps everything else in prediction. Sasuke could react to Ee's reaction and ensure his hit. Not to mention Minato barely reacted to either of Ee and Madara's attack. What about the time before, when even at point blank range Sasuke was able to deflect his attack to avoid a fatal injury?

Yeah, Sasuke was slower then Itachi, but let's not forget that he was roughly even with Ee and Kirabi. Both of who are at the very least even with base Minato. Minato's only faster when it comes to Hiraishin and that can be gotten around. The panel during the shuriken fight doesn't matter, since we know that the genjutsu couldn't have been used then. Nothing was happening in the panel with the MS itself though.

Sasuke controlled Kyubi's chakra to recede. Kyubi didn't have the sharingan on him. Kyubi indicated that it had something to do with his chakra which is the same as Madara's(EMS/prime Madara) chakra. Madara when he fought the 1st had EMS and that sinister chakra so he could control Kyubi. Kyubi was not shown to have the Sharingan on him. Why are we now assuming he did? Manga did not state that or show that. Kishi does not miss out on little details. He even shows the wind/lightening effects on weapons and other little details like sweat etc. Madara specifically was said to have the ability to control Kyubi and everytime we saw him with an implication of controlling Kyubi, it was prime Madara we were tallking about. Show me in the manga where a summoning had the Sharingan and it was not an illusion. I'll need a good page to believe you. The 4th broke Kyubi out of a genjutsu period. He had a seal for it.
EMS Madara controlls Kyubi: Kyubi no sharingan, no illusion just sinister chakra, no need for illusion
Sasuke controls kyubi chakra: Kyubi no sharingan, no ilusion just sinister chakra, no need for illusion
Sasuke controls manda illusion: results? ------> Manda sharingan eye(Kishi specifically showed Manda's eye change)
Madara controls Kyubi illusion: results? --------> Kyubi sharingan eye(Kishi specifically showed Kyubi's eye change)

I've showed you manga pages to show that my points are not made up. Show me in the manga where a summoning has the sharingan equipped and it was not a sharingan's illusion. I've shown you 2 places where a summoning had the sharingan and it being the sharingan's illusion.

You're clearly ignoring the entire situation. Yeah, the Sharingan was shown in the Kyuubi's eye when control was taken. But it then disappeared and didn't reappear until control was broken. The rest of the time it was fighting, the Kyuubi's eyes were shown either blank or normal. Just like in the snapshot we saw from the battle with Hashirama. On the otherhand, Manda had the Sharingan in his eyes the entire time. There was no change like with the Kyuubi. It just faded away.

Not only that, but you say that Kishi does not miss out on the little details, yet you're completely ignoring that we were direct told it was control. Both Madara and Minato mentioned it several times. Not genjutsu, control. Nowhere else in the series has being in a genjutsu been called "control". Every time a genjutsu has been made use of, it's been called what it was, a genjutsu. So it's not just the images, but the words too that make it clear that it was not a genjutsu.

The 4th didn't touch Kyubi or his attack to warp it. Kyubi was under bunta and the 4th still teleported him and the biju bomb didn't touch the 4th for him to teleport it. I've showed you 2 places where the 4th teleported a moving object, and a stationary object. Show me in the manga where the 4th tried to teleport something stationary that he wasn't able to. I'll be needing manga pages to support your arguments. He knew he could teleport the attacks he did before they happened. Also if he teleported Amaterasu, what happens if he teleports it to Itachi's back?? How'll Itachi know?? The Byakugan is the only eye that can see behind their back. The fire would ignite on Itachi's back.

Killerbee's interception was based on reflexes not on eyesight. In the fight with the raikage Sasuke couldn't even see the raikage. It wasn't Sasuke could see him but not move in time but Sasuke couldn't even see him at all. Evident by Amaterasu still focused on the after Image after the raikage moved.
Itachi has not shown reflexes on the level of A and the 4th. Show me manga page where he has. He already saw Kirin form in the sky before it dropped.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c391/2.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c391/7.html

He already had Susano out. How do I know this? because Susano is invisible before it is in it's complete form.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c392/2.html

Notice Sasuke asked what Susano was, he didn't see anything yet.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c392/3.html

Now see Zetsu and and Sasuke's experssion change AS SUSANO WAS REACHING IT'S FINAL STAGE. Susano is invisible at it's beginnins stage. Itachi had it out to deal before Sasuke lauched Kirin.
That's why the Raikage and the Samurai's still wondered why Sasuke was alive after Raiga bomb/Ee's attacks. After Susano reached it's final form, Raikage said "Is that the thing that has been shielding him from my attacks" meaning the Raikage just saw it. Itachi didn't show insane reaction speed, he already had Susano out when he saw Kirin form and was ready for it.

Minato did touch the Kyuubi, that's why he had to have Gamabunta hold him down. And Minato had to stand still and open a warp to teleport the Kyuubi Blast. since Minato can't touch Amaterasu and he won't know it's coming, he can't warp it. And Minato wouldn't be able to teleport Amaterasu to Itachi. Minato can only teleport something to wherever one of his tags are.

How can Kirabi's interception be based on reflexes? There was nothing for Kirabi to react too. He was a good distances away, to far for it to be an reaction. Sasuke was able to see Ee, even though he was using his max Lightning Cloak along with shunshin. Not only did Sasuke find him, but Sasuke was able to react in that instant to activate his Amaterasu shielding over Susanoo. Itachi has shown the reflexes by the fact that his reflexes were better then Sasuke's. We were specifically told that Minato's reflexes were comparable to base Ee's reflexes, while the Sharingan has been shown greater then Ee using his Lightning Cloak.

First off, Susanoo isn't invisible. It couldn't be invisible to Sasuke, as he would be able to see the chakra itself. Also, the translations make it clear that Ee and gang did see Susanoo [1][2]. Not to mention that we as the audience are always shown it, so we know that Itachi didn't have Susanoo activated until the last moment.

Another point stated by Shaunlim, Tsukyomi HAS NEVER KILLED ANYONE IN THE MANGA. Tsunade healed Sasuke and Kakashi from tsukyomi EASILY. Sasuke got hit and he didn't die 2wice. Tsukyomi was done on that kumo ninja to find killer bee's location and he didn't die. The guy was claimed to have a weak mind and he still didn't die. The only shinobi who have suffered from Tsukyomi were ALL in part 1 and they didn't die. Kakashi thought he could die from it cuz of the pain. Which we can't trust cuz Zabuza also thought Kakashi was predicting his movements not controlling him, and Shi also thought Raikage had better reflexes than the 4th. Raikage(the huge cocky dude) a speed/reflex guy even said Minato couldn't be surpassed. I need to see the page in the manga where Tsukyomi killed someone. All it has done was stun. Also Raikage broke Susano, Danzo's wind tore a hole in Susano and the jutsu's destructive power is not as strong as the 4th's rasengan. The rasengan would give a Hole in Susano which is enough time for the 4th for finish the fight. If Susano has that mark on it or Itachi has the mark on him, instant KO. Itachi wouldn't kow about it so he would die immediately.

I'll need manga pages that shows the sharingan on a summon and it was not an illusion
I'll need manga Page of Itachi reacting to 4th level speed even raikage with his v2 couldn't even move in time.
I'll need manga page where Tsukyomi actually killed someone in the show.
I'll need manga page where the 4th couldn't teleport something after trying.
I'll need manga page where Itachi could do Amaterasu while putting the opponent in an illusion.

I've seen your explanations now I need manga pages.

Tsukuyomi has never killed because Itachi didn't want them dead. But here, Itachi can use Tsukuyomi without holding back. Itachi going easy landed both Sasuke and Kakashi in comas. So even he doesn't outright kill Minato with it, Minato will be as good as dead anyway. Ee was speaking of Minato's speed from Hiraishin, which was the only reason Minato was able to outspeed him. Hiraishin can be gotten around as we have seen. What do you mean their destructive power isn't a match for the Rasengan? The normal Rasengan has never done alot of damage. The Rasengan can't even tear through a person's skin. Not to mention that do do the most damage, the rasengan has to be held in place. There's no way it'll get through Susanoo, especially Itachi's Susanoo. Ee only had to deal with the riblets themselves and Danzo dealt with the unarmored version. Not only does Itachi's Susanoo have armor, but it has the Yata Mirror which counter all ninjutsu. So not only would it be futile, but Minato would simply be opening himself up to an attack from Itachi. And Itachi would know about any tags, as he would see the chakra in them.

[benelori]

Calm down guys, don't follow the path of hatred!
And this is just a friendly advice no need to be alarmed or anything, but this is Itachi's match, so if Tsukuyomi is in the discussion, I think his version should be brought up. Comparing it with Sasuke's, which is weaker, just brings in other fights to compare with, and eventually off topic is inevitable.
Please keep this in mind!

[Infernal Stigma]

Minato did touch the Kyuubi, that's why he had to have Gamabunta hold him down. And Minato had to stand still and open a warp to teleport the Kyuubi Blast. since Minato can't touch Amaterasu and he won't know it's coming, he can't warp it. And Minato wouldn't be able to teleport Amaterasu to Itachi. Minato can only teleport something to wherever one of his tags are.

How can Kirabi's interception be based on reflexes? There was nothing for Kirabi to react too. He was a good distances away, to far for it to be an reaction. Sasuke was able to see Ee, even though he was using his max Lightning Cloak along with shunshin. Not only did Sasuke find him, but Sasuke was able to react in that instant to activate his Amaterasu shielding over Susanoo. Itachi has shown the reflexes by the fact that his reflexes were better then Sasuke's. We were specifically told that Minato's reflexes were comparable to base Ee's reflexes, while the Sharingan has been shown greater then Ee using his Lightning Cloak.

First off, Susanoo isn't invisible. It couldn't be invisible to Sasuke, as he would be able to see the chakra itself. Also, the translations make it clear that Ee and gang did see Susanoo [1][2]. Not to mention that we as the audience are always shown it, so we know that Itachi didn't have Susanoo activated until the last moment.

Tsukuyomi has never killed because Itachi didn't want them dead. But here, Itachi can use Tsukuyomi without holding back. Itachi going easy landed both Sasuke and Kakashi in comas. So even he doesn't outright kill Minato with it, Minato will be as good as dead anyway. Ee was speaking of Minato's speed from Hiraishin, which was the only reason Minato was able to outspeed him. Hiraishin can be gotten around as we have seen. What do you mean their destructive power isn't a match for the Rasengan? The normal Rasengan has never done alot of damage. The Rasengan can't even tear through a person's skin. Not to mention that do do the most damage, the rasengan has to be held in place. There's no way it'll get through Susanoo, especially Itachi's Susanoo. Ee only had to deal with the riblets themselves and Danzo dealt with the unarmored version. Not only does Itachi's Susanoo have armor, but it has the Yata Mirror which counter all ninjutsu. So not only would it be futile, but Minato would simply be opening himself up to an attack from Itachi. And Itachi would know about any tags, as he would see the chakra in them.

Manga disagrees with you, Minato did not touch Kyubi. And even Gamabunta didn't teleport.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/10.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/11.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/12.html


He can indeed send things to a place where there are no tags. His space time barrier. Unless you're telling me he has tags everywhere, if he did then he wouldn't need to think twice before sending the biju bomb away. He would immediately know without thinking. Just like he didn't need to think of location when he teleported the Kyubi to his wife. He already knew.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c502/7.html


Manga disagrees with you sir. That was an fully armoured Susano.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c479/8.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c479/9.html

The 4th's rasengan was able to shake and blow the floor. It has destructive power better than what we've seen from a regular rasengan.


Manga disagrees with you on the fact that rasengan can indeed tear through a persons skin and do even more damage.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v19/c168/2.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v19/c168/6.html

Kabuto was just a monster. People know that when rasengan hit's you die, at least I assumed that since Tsunade was shocked that Kabuto took that. He needed chakra to absorb the damage and even with that he got injured. Uses up ALL his chakra to do that.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v19/c168/7.html


The 4th would not confront a shield head on he'll attack at Susano's back, Danzo's jutsu gave a small opening so will the 4th's. Shushin no jutsu place a tag on Itachi or kill him.

The killerbee reflex point, it's a matter of interpretation. He had good reflexes and was able to instinctively follow the 4th's movement. You might have interpreted it as Killerbee seeing FTG. I don't see how someone can see FTG with regular eyes. If you say he saw the 4th's movements that's fine but I don't see how he could. Even Raikage didn't see. He had to guess on which kunai the 4th would appear next to. If I go further then it's a battle of opinion which I don't do.

[Exodi]

He can indeed send things to a place where there are no tags. His space time barrier. Unless you're telling me he has tags everywhere, if he did then he wouldn't need to think twice before sending the biju bomb away. He would immediately know without thinking. Just like he didn't need to think of location when he teleported the Kyubi to his wife. He already knew.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c502/7.html

There's nothing to suggest that Minato can use Hiraishin or its variants without tags. The more logical assumption is that he indeed does have tags everywhere, and that page can be interpreted as him merely choosing which place he wants it to go (i.e. which tag to send it to). The phrase. If he could use it without tags, he'd have to be aware of every single place everywhere, else he risk sending a chakra blast to someone's house instead of a giant field.

[Raizen]

I have no idea how the hell Itachi beat Madara. Even a surprise attack from his best offensive attack didn't kill madara. But then again, if madara won, then he will face Minato and discussion would be lackluster since Minato already showed he beat Madara

Minato wins against itachi. Itachi is a great ninja but nothing in the manga has showed to me that Itachi is good enough to beat Minato. People assume genjutsu is this easy 1-hitKO technique that will allow itachi to instantly beat any ninja even high class ones.
Even tsukyomi is not a guaranteed win. All it does is break the spirit or tries to break the spirit of the opponent. The opponent can survive and still continue the fight.

Minato's speed is at a level where making eye contact is almost impossible, let alone realizing u are making eye contact then actually using a technique. If sasuke can barely follow raiakge, then no one in hell itachi can follow minato.

---------- Post added at 06:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------

WHAT!?!

1: Killerbee was one-shotted by Sasuke's Tsukuyomi, but was broken out of it by his tailed beast. Didn't tank it. Minato has no tailed beast so he can't replicate this action..

WTF!?? If he broke out of it, then he wasn't one-shotted. Simple deduction...

---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 PM ----------

Itachi takes this one:

-Minato throw kunais
-Itachi activates Susano while stepping away of the kunai field where minato is a slowpoke
-Minato starts to throw kunai at susano to get closer
-Itachi gets his big badass "i seal fucking everything" sword, and slash all the kunais, and minato gets out of stock

So minato can go to his house drink tea and get supply, itachi seal the remaining kunai and minato does not have where to go back

Itachi can also amateratsu the whole field of kunai where minato will appear to be caught on flames that he cannot put out.

There are a lot of ways where the great minato is shit in front of itachi

Possibly one of the worse argument I have heard!
1. Itachi activating susanoo at the beginning is a good plan because it will let him live a bit longer but eventually he will run dry.
2. The blade of susanoo cannot seal away the kunais It only seal the souls of the opponents. As far as i know, physical objects don't have souls.
3. Amaretsu is not quick enough to catch Minato and no one in hell itachi can keep the use of amaretsu for long. Furthermore, Minato can teleport the incoming amaretsu right back at itachi.

[jdw]

If Minato sees Itachi slashing the kunai with anything or trying to Amaterasu them, he can just retrieve them before Itachi can complete the job. By the time Itachi gets to Kunai # 2 on his hit list, Minato will have retrieved the rest anyway. There is nothing in Itachi's arsenal capable of beating Minato in a race to the Kunai. During all this sword slashing and burning, Itachi would be depleting his already meager chakra, driving himself into a corner and basically committing suicide.

In a worst case scenario, as long as creatures and objects exist, Minato can restock for Hiraishin. He can place seals on things, np.

[M3J]

Tsukuyomi doesn't need to kill. Kakashi was rendered unable to fight after it and fell into a coma, and Sasuke immediately went into a comma. That is just as good as dead. Minato still being in fighting condition after taking Tsukuyomi in full is absolutely ridiculous.

Kakashi was weakened, but he didn't slip into a coma until Gai arrived. He was still functioning for at least a minute. If Kakashi was able to last a while without fainting, why can't Minato?

WHAT!?!

1: Killerbee was one-shotted by Sasuke's Tsukuyomi, but was broken out of it by his tailed beast. Didn't tank it. Minato has no tailed beast so he can't replicate this action.

Killerbee was not one-shotted by Sasuke's Tsukuyomi. If anything, Sasuke was the only one who's been one-shotted by genjutsu... twice. All it took was a genjutsu to knock him out.

Of course Kakashi has no idea what Tsukiyomi is. He is telling them to close there eyes because a fireball is on its way and he wants to make sure there retina is not going to be damaged from the flash of light...

Is that sarcasm? This paragraph makes no sense... if he wanted to make sure their retinas would not be damaged, why have his SHaringan activated, then? Wouldn't that just do the same amount of damage? I think Kakashi figured that Itachi probably mastered a higher level of genjutsu otherwise he was basically making it easy for Kurenai and Asuma to get themselves killed.

Hard to say I guess. Something similar to what Naruto and Yamato did when they sensed Kabuto sneaking behind them then? Well it's like I said, Sasuke was slower than Itachi while Minato is just as fast if not even faster. That and the fact that he can actually teleport with Hiraishin which is why Itachi is at a disadvantage if Minato is going to keep disappearing from his sight when his eyesight is already bad enough.

Hmm, maybe Kabuto wasn't trying to be that sneaky. I don't think speed will hurt Itachi because he had no problem with reacting. He was able to see Sasuke's chidori and came up with a defense as well as move out of the way when Sasuke used kaaton on a lower floor out of nowhere. When he followed it up with two more, Itachi got out of the way fast enough that only his right arm caught on fire. Since Minato can't attack far away, he'd have to be close, which would help Itachi even more since he can see Minato clearly that Minato's speed isn't as big of an issue.

Actually IMHO, Hiraishin whether it is obvious or not doesn't affect its use. Even if you know that Minato teleports to the kunai and know where is every single one of it(like Raikage I guess), you still need to guess which one Minato teleports to at all time. Constantly under pressure to avoid going to certain places with kunai while worrying where Minato might escape to. I doubt Hiraishin would only be at the front of Itachi. It will probably surround the battlefield like how it was against A. I agree with the not impossible part as Bee could have hit Minato back then( Minato could have dodged as well obviously but it's a possibility for him to get hit then) but I don't believe that traps around Hiraishin kunais would work. Minato seems to be able to sense danger or something via those kunais since he was able to know that Kakashi was in trouble back then.

It depends, but it can affect its use against opponents with good reaction. If Itachi sees three kunai with seals and one in the back, then he can guess where Minato will come from and plan a trap. Itachi could easily set up Amaterasu around the seals so Minato would have to avoid going there. It wouldn't need to be an Amaterasu like the one against Sasuke, but just a small one that can do damage. If Itachi guesses right, then he can get Minato in a genjutsu as well.

I'm just giving a scenario, by the way. I don't think Minato would have his kunai in front only either, he'd spread it around. But depending on the distance to Itachi, he'd have more than enough time to react, but Minato can Hiraishin continuously and trick or make Itachi into thinking something. He can Hiraishin clockwise, and when Itachi prepares to strike, use Hiraishin counterclockwise and then attack Itachi from there.

Seeing as how Minato knew the problem with chidori, I'm sure he anticipated that Kakashi was in danger before Kakashi was even halfway there. He did stop Kakashi from using chidori initially and then explained why chidori was a bad idea after he saved Kakashi. Another reason why, despite what some say, I think Minato's very intelligent and very good at analyzing. He was able to guess chidori's weakness before even seeing it in action.

@M3J



Kakashi himself stated that he can't understand why he let him live. Now we all know why, because Itachi was a good guy. So if Itachi wanted to he could have killed Kakashi, MANGA FACT.
So what you are saying is that Kakashi dies but Minato is so uber just because and can even fight after that? LOL RIGHT. Give evidence as to WHY and the absence of feats is not a feat in itself. Post evidence as "HE COULD DO IT because he never showed not to be able to" is complalty non-logical and irrelevant.

Now this would be 51 pages of no EVIDENCE and just absurd statemants. I stated i need evidence and not more non-logical assumptions.



Again why would Kakashi DIE but Minato keep fighting? Where is the logic in that? Where is the EVIDENCE of that?
Aside from the fact that Itachi let Kakashi live he was completly incapacitated and could not even defend himself from a head on attack from Kisame but Minato is going to do better? WHY? Where is the logic of that and the evidence.

You can't state x can do better then y and provide NO EVIDENCE as to why.
I am realy curios what logic you are using to state x can do y but provide no evidence of that? Probably some bizzare one from 2000(or more) years ago.

All i am asking for 51 pages is evidence to suport diferent statemants but i get ifs and buts and asumtions and perhaps. LOL people don't even compare Minato to other people but make him look 10 times as better to tank anything.

Let me make it clear to you. If Konahamaru would have got owned from MS genjutsu Minato would have eneded in the same place as he has no better feats in the area then Konahamaru. OK perhaps not excacly the same place as Minato has a obvious more powerfull mind and better pain tolerance but not leaps and bounds as you people make it.

Edit: Just an example:
If i am Konahamaru and Minato is a huge bodybuilder and both of us would get shot with a bullet to the hearth both of us would die even if the big guy is going to have a lot more muscles for the bullet to go trough and more mass(bigger chest). Same thing here. Evidence is needed that whatever diference (even if we asume it is) from Kakashi to Minato is great enough for that bullet (genjutsu) to not kill him anywhay.

I had a response prepared, but due to technical errors, I don't anymore. Instead, I will ask you this: where did I say Minato would tank it while Kakashi would be killed? Where did I say Minato can tank it? Where did I even say Kakashi would be killed?

---------- Post added at 10:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 PM ----------

Oh, and Sword of Totsuga can apparently seal stuff as well, it's not limited to just living things. Itachi can just use Susano'o to seal away kunai quickly as Susano'o's fast enough. Minato wouldn't know what's going on and/or would move away if Itachi feints with attacking Minato first, leaving tagged kunai open.


And unless Minato has more kunai that he can summon (he probably does, but there's no proof yet), he's shit outta luck with kunai and has to resort to tagging stuff. Depending on how the fight goes after this, and even before this, either one can win. If Itachi doesn't know about Minato being able to tag with just his chakra and can't see where Minato tagged, then Itachi will likely lose. If Itachi does know, then he'll be able to observe Minato and see where he tagged and then be able to react if Minato disappears.

[MazzinKaizer]

They are both insanely smart and awesome. It eventually comes down to who has the more hax jutsus. Easy, Itachi. Itachi has less things to worry about fighting Minato and Vice Versa.

[jdw]

Oh, and Sword of Totsuga can apparently seal stuff as well, it's not limited to just living things. Itachi can just use Susano'o to seal away kunai quickly as Susano'o's fast enough. Minato wouldn't know what's going on and/or would move away if Itachi feints with attacking Minato first, leaving tagged kunai open.


And unless Minato has more kunai that he can summon (he probably does, but there's no proof yet), he's shit outta luck with kunai and has to resort to tagging stuff. Depending on how the fight goes after this, and even before this, either one can win. If Itachi doesn't know about Minato being able to tag with just his chakra and can't see where Minato tagged, then Itachi will likely lose. If Itachi does know, then he'll be able to observe Minato and see where he tagged and then be able to react if Minato disappears.

Um, even if Itachi starts trying to seal the kunai, what is preventing Minato from snapping them up after Itachi takes the first kunai? If they are racing to the kunai, Itachi has no ability that will allow him to seal the kunai faster than minato can take them up. I'd argue that if there are 10 kunai on the field, Minato could likely retrieve 8 before Itachi hits 2.

[Rikudou King]

Manga disagrees with you, Minato did not touch Kyubi. And even Gamabunta didn't teleport.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/10.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/11.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/12.html

Minato did touch the Kyuubi, that's why he disappears along with the Kyuubi. You don't seem to understand how Minato's ability works. His space/time teleportation is based around Hiraishin and his tags. Those are required for him to teleport and stuff. Thus the reason Minato can only teleport to where his tags are. If Minato could just teleport wherever he wanted, he wouldn't need the tags.

He can indeed send things to a place where there are no tags. His space time barrier. Unless you're telling me he has tags everywhere, if he did then he wouldn't need to think twice before sending the biju bomb away. He would immediately know without thinking. Just like he didn't need to think of location when he teleported the Kyubi to his wife. He already knew.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c502/7.html

Considering that we know he has tags scattered around Konoha, it makes prefect sense, especially since we saw that Minato required a tag to use it. And going to Kushina worked the same way, since her seal has Hiraishin embedded into it.

Manga disagrees with you sir. That was an fully armoured Susano.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c479/8.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c479/9.html

That's not a fully armored Susanoo. That's just the skinned version of Susanoo. The fully armor version looks like this. And Itachi's look like this.

The 4th's rasengan was able to shake and blow the floor. It has destructive power better than what we've seen from a regular rasengan.

Manga disagrees with you on the fact that rasengan can indeed tear through a persons skin and do even more damage.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v19/c168/2.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v19/c168/6.html

Kabuto was just a monster. People know that when rasengan hit's you die, at least I assumed that since Tsunade was shocked that Kabuto took that. He needed chakra to absorb the damage and even with that he got injured. Uses up ALL his chakra to do that.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v19/c168/7.html

That wasn't a show of destructive power at all, at least to rival the strength of Ee. Ee did far more damage when he punched the wall and literally thrashed the ground As for breaking the skin, that's very questionable considering we have seen the Rasengan used against several opponents without doing any damage to the skin. Random fodder guy, Yuura, Hell Path, Deva Path. So by all accounts, the manga has shown the opposite.

And Kabuto didn't use up all his chakra. Doing that would have meant he would be dead and besides, Kabuto a few moments later got right back up and summoned Manda.

The 4th would not confront a shield head on he'll attack at Susano's back, Danzo's jutsu gave a small opening so will the 4th's. Shushin no jutsu place a tag on Itachi or kill him.

The killerbee reflex point, it's a matter of interpretation. He had good reflexes and was able to instinctively follow the 4th's movement. You might have interpreted it as Killerbee seeing FTG. I don't see how someone can see FTG with regular eyes. If you say he saw the 4th's movements that's fine but I don't see how he could. Even Raikage didn't see. He had to guess on which kunai the 4th would appear next to. If I go further then it's a battle of opinion which I don't do.

The shield's protection extends beyond where the shield itself is. Danzo needed one of his strongest techniques along with his Baku to enhance it to even make a dent and that was on a Susanoo without any armor. Minato doesn't possess any technique that can do that sort of damage. If his Rasengan can't even tear the planty Madara apart, how the heck could it ever hope to deal with Susanoo.

It's not a matter of interpretation. Kirabi didn't just do something like follow Minato's movements. Minato teleported in, so there as nothing to follow. Instead, Kirabi saw Minato teleport in and before Minato could even act, Kirabi was able to create a tentacle and help Ee before Minato could move his arm. So we clearly see that seeing and reacting to Hiraishin can be done with normal eyes, thus the Sharingan wouldn't have any trouble doing likewise with it's superior prediction abilities. And we didn't get to see what Ee would have done.

Minato wins against itachi. Itachi is a great ninja but nothing in the manga has showed to me that Itachi is good enough to beat Minato. People assume genjutsu is this easy 1-hitKO technique that will allow itachi to instantly beat any ninja even high class ones.
Even tsukyomi is not a guaranteed win. All it does is break the spirit or tries to break the spirit of the opponent. The opponent can survive and still continue the fight.

Minato's speed is at a level where making eye contact is almost impossible, let alone realizing u are making eye contact then actually using a technique. If sasuke can barely follow raiakge, then no one in hell itachi can follow minato.

People assume that genjutsu can make it an easy KO because that's the way it's been shown in the series itself. Genjutsu has been shown an incredible tool to use, enough that only a tiny few have the tools to counter it.

- Trick the target into preforming and doing what you want them to do.
- Paralyze the target to make it easier to take them out.
- Instantly knock out a ninja with prefect chakra control.
- Genjutsu can be used to change what the target is seeing, thus making them unable to react to it in time.

Minato's speed would only be a challenge when Hiraishin is being used and that can easily be gotten around. The Sharingan's prediction ability means that Itachi will know ahead of time what will happen and where Minato will be looking, allowing him to plan well ahead of Minato. Ee was using his max Lightning Cloak along with Shunshin and Sasuke was still able to lock his eyes on him. So speed clearly wouldn't be a major issue for landing a genjutsu, especially since we seen that it can be used in pretty much any distance and without locking direct eyesight.

If Minato sees Itachi slashing the kunai with anything or trying to Amaterasu them, he can just retrieve them before Itachi can complete the job. By the time Itachi gets to Kunai # 2 on his hit list, Minato will have retrieved the rest anyway. There is nothing in Itachi's arsenal capable of beating Minato in a race to the Kunai. During all this sword slashing and burning, Itachi would be depleting his already meager chakra, driving himself into a corner and basically committing suicide.

In a worst case scenario, as long as creatures and objects exist, Minato can restock for Hiraishin. He can place seals on things, np.

If Minato is grabbing up his tags, then how will he be able to escape afterwards? No tags means no Hiraishin. Minato would be stuck using his base speed, which while fast would be far more easier to follow and trap. Minato grabbing up his kunai would actually makes things easy for Itachi. Itachi would be able to "slash and burn" as long as he wishes. If he can have an extended battle and use half a dozen MS techniques in addition to his standard arsenal against Sasuke, he can easily use a few MS techniques against Minato. Not to mention that the simple plan of setting the entire area with the tags on fire with Amaterasu means that Minato would neither be bale to retrieve them or teleport to them without torching himself. Placing tags on things isn't the same, as that would be an even greater limit to where he could go the throwing his kunai. Itachi woudl have him boxed in.

[Nicholas.Sama]

People assume genjutsu is this easy 1-hitKO technique that will allow itachi to instantly beat any ninja even high class ones.
Even tsukyomi is not a guaranteed win. All it does is break the spirit or tries to break the spirit of the opponent. The opponent can survive and still continue the fight.

Sigh....

I think this exact argument has been brought up and shut down at least once on every page of this thread.

You say "even high class ones" like it is uncommon,
Orochimaru, Deidara, and Kakashi were all high class. They were all owned by Itachi's genjutsu.

Kakashi was unable to fight after Tsukuyomi; he knew what it was and had a Sharingan.
Why in the hell should I just give Minato the benefit of the doubt that he will be just fine after getting hit by Tsukuyomi? Seriously, this baffles me to no end.

Itachi has.....

fuck it.

[jdw]

If Minato is grabbing up his tags, then how will he be able to escape afterwards? No tags means no Hiraishin. Minato would be stuck using his base speed, which while fast would be far more easier to follow and trap. Minato grabbing up his kunai would actually makes things easy for Itachi. Itachi would be able to "slash and burn" as long as he wishes. If he can have an extended battle and use half a dozen MS techniques in addition to his standard arsenal against Sasuke, he can easily use a few MS techniques against Minato. Not to mention that the simple plan of setting the entire area with the tags on fire with Amaterasu means that Minato would neither be bale to retrieve them or teleport to them without torching himself. Placing tags on things isn't the same, as that would be an even greater limit to where he could go the throwing his kunai. Itachi woudl have him boxed in.

Taking them up does not mean that he cannot throw them again

I never said he was going to lock them away, just keep them from being taken away. lol. Itachi cannot slash and burn as long as he wishes. He cannot use jutsu like that because he will die. Itachi must use his jutsu wisely, he cannot afford to spam even one time! Susanoo is not like Evangelion plugged into a wall, it is plugged into Itachi's life and chakra, killing and depleting him.

As for setting an area on fire, that is fine, but amaterasu isn't always fast moving, so it might depend on the terrain. But if Hiraishin is faster than the spawning of Amaterasu, it will likely be faster than the movement of a burning flame across lands. The flame will not torch land at the speed of light. Itachi cannot really flamethrow with his amaterasu, the poor little chase he gave Sasuke almost put him in his grave.

[zerocooldx]

This whole "high level shinobi will somehow break out of Gen-jutsu and/or Tsukuyomi" argument is pretty damn funny.

Especially since a few of the strongest shinobi in the entire manga got owned by Itachi's Gen-jutsu. Notably being Orochimaru, Deidara, and Kakashi. We all know Kakashi got KO'd by Tsukuyomi. However that also happened around the same time that Kakashi nearly crapped his pants when he confronted Orochimaru due to the gap in their strength. Yet we all saw what Itachi did to Orochimaru. And i'm pretty sure Itachi didn't wait till Orochimaru was on his death bed to own him, like Sasuke did. Not to mention that Itachi did the exact same thing to Deidara and nearly had him kill himself. I mean that right there is an example of three extremely powerful shinobi getting basically one shotted by Itachi's Gen-jutsu. Actually i don't think Itachi even had to use Tsukuyomi on Orochimaru and Deidara.

But then again, this is Minato. The man who turns water into wine simply because he can. Hell i bet he can even materialize water out of air!

[Rikudou King]

Taking them up does not mean that he cannot throw them again

I never said he was going to lock them away, just keep them from being taken away. lol. Itachi cannot slash and burn as long as he wishes. He cannot use jutsu like that because he will die. Itachi must use his jutsu wisely, he cannot afford to spam even one time! Susanoo is not like Evangelion plugged into a wall, it is plugged into Itachi's life and chakra, killing and depleting him.

As for setting an area on fire, that is fine, but amaterasu isn't always fast moving, so it might depend on the terrain. But if Hiraishin is faster than the spawning of Amaterasu, it will likely be faster than the movement of a burning flame across lands. The flame will not torch land at the speed of light. Itachi cannot really flamethrow with his amaterasu, the poor little chase he gave Sasuke almost put him in his grave.

But if he's taking them up, that removes that "spot" where he can teleport to. That means that he'll be completely vulnerable to an attack during that time and won't be able to employ Hiraishin to save himself. Minato can't simply grab them and then throw them, because that wouldn't actually be solving the issue of Itachi sealing them. It would at most only delay how long it took him.

Itachi can "slash and burn" as long as he needs to place Minato in a trap. His fight with Sasuke proves that the argument of Itachi not being able to do it for long doesn't work. Itachi was able to hold his second Susanoo for at least five minutes, after using a bunch of normal and MS techniques while blind and coughing up blood. So there's no reason Itachi wouldn't be able to hold it that long, if not longer, when he has more chakra and health to make use of. Since Itachi can shoot Amaterasu as big as he wishes, he could be able to cover an entire area in the flames instantly. Itachi would not have to wait for the flames to spread, especially since the tag coverage isn't that huge. Itachi would be able to trap Minato and remove Hiraishin from his usage at a minor cost. Then Itachi can fully focus on Minato while he has no place to escape too.

[Infernal Stigma]

Minato did touch the Kyuubi, that's why he disappears along with the Kyuubi. You don't seem to understand how Minato's ability works. His space/time teleportation is based around Hiraishin and his tags. Those are required for him to teleport and stuff. Thus the reason Minato can only teleport to where his tags are. If Minato could just teleport wherever he wanted, he wouldn't need the tags.




And Kabuto didn't use up all his chakra. Doing that would have meant he would be dead and besides, Kabuto a few moments later got right back up and summoned Manda.

Manga disagrees with you. Minato doesn't need to tag something to teleport it. Show me pages where he touched the Kyubi. Kishi shows us everytime Minato tags something. The tag is not to teleport something but to teleport to that location. If that was the case then he needed to touch the biju ball to teleport it. I need to see pages where he needed to tag something to teleport it.

Kabuto in his exact words: "Of course as a trade off, it uses up about all my chakra". Unless kabuto now lies to the readers in his mind.
Sasuke used up all his chakra that he had to turn off the sharingan and when Deidara was about to explode, Sasuke summoned Manda. The summoning logic does not work.