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Yeah, Sasuke was slower then Itachi, but let's not forget that he was roughly even with Ee and Kirabi. Both of who are at the very least even with base Minato. Minato's only faster when it comes to Hiraishin and that can be gotten around. The panel during the shuriken fight doesn't matter, since we know that the genjutsu couldn't have been used then. Nothing was happening in the panel with the MS itself though.
Not only that, but you say that Kishi does not miss out on the little details, yet you're completely ignoring that we were direct told it was control. Both Madara and Minato mentioned it several times. Not genjutsu, control. Nowhere else in the series has being in a genjutsu been called "control". Every time a genjutsu has been made use of, it's been called what it was, a genjutsu. So it's not just the images, but the words too that make it clear that it was not a genjutsu.
How can Kirabi's interception be based on reflexes? There was nothing for Kirabi to react too. He was a good distances away, to far for it to be an reaction. Sasuke was able to see Ee, even though he was using his max Lightning Cloak along with shunshin. Not only did Sasuke find him, but Sasuke was able to react in that instant to activate his Amaterasu shielding over Susanoo. Itachi has shown the reflexes by the fact that his reflexes were better then Sasuke's. We were specifically told that Minato's reflexes were comparable to base Ee's reflexes, while the Sharingan has been shown greater then Ee using his Lightning Cloak.
First off, Susanoo isn't invisible. It couldn't be invisible to Sasuke, as he would be able to see the chakra itself. Also, the translations make it clear that Ee and gang did see Susanoo . Not to mention that we as the audience are always shown it, so we know that Itachi didn't have Susanoo activated until the last moment.
Calm down guys, don't follow the path of hatred!
And this is just a friendly advice no need to be alarmed or anything, but this is Itachi's match, so if Tsukuyomi is in the discussion, I think his version should be brought up. Comparing it with Sasuke's, which is weaker, just brings in other fights to compare with, and eventually off topic is inevitable.
Please keep this in mind!
He can indeed send things to a place where there are no tags. His space time barrier. Unless you're telling me he has tags everywhere, if he did then he wouldn't need to think twice before sending the biju bomb away. He would immediately know without thinking. Just like he didn't need to think of location when he teleported the Kyubi to his wife. He already knew.
Manga disagrees with you sir. That was an fully armoured Susano.
The 4th's rasengan was able to shake and blow the floor. It has destructive power better than what we've seen from a regular rasengan.
Manga disagrees with you on the fact that rasengan can indeed tear through a persons skin and do even more damage.
Kabuto was just a monster. People know that when rasengan hit's you die, at least I assumed that since Tsunade was shocked that Kabuto took that. He needed chakra to absorb the damage and even with that he got injured. Uses up ALL his chakra to do that.
The 4th would not confront a shield head on he'll attack at Susano's back, Danzo's jutsu gave a small opening so will the 4th's. Shushin no jutsu place a tag on Itachi or kill him.
The killerbee reflex point, it's a matter of interpretation. He had good reflexes and was able to instinctively follow the 4th's movement. You might have interpreted it as Killerbee seeing FTG. I don't see how someone can see FTG with regular eyes. If you say he saw the 4th's movements that's fine but I don't see how he could. Even Raikage didn't see. He had to guess on which kunai the 4th would appear next to. If I go further then it's a battle of opinion which I don't do.
Last edited by Infernal Stigma; July 26, 2011 at 02:59 PM.
There's nothing to suggest that Minato can use Hiraishin or its variants without tags. The more logical assumption is that he indeed does have tags everywhere, and that page can be interpreted as him merely choosing which place he wants it to go (i.e. which tag to send it to). The phrase. If he could use it without tags, he'd have to be aware of every single place everywhere, else he risk sending a chakra blast to someone's house instead of a giant field.Quote:
I have no idea how the hell Itachi beat Madara. Even a surprise attack from his best offensive attack didn't kill madara. But then again, if madara won, then he will face Minato and discussion would be lackluster since Minato already showed he beat Madara
Minato wins against itachi. Itachi is a great ninja but nothing in the manga has showed to me that Itachi is good enough to beat Minato. People assume genjutsu is this easy 1-hitKO technique that will allow itachi to instantly beat any ninja even high class ones.
Even tsukyomi is not a guaranteed win. All it does is break the spirit or tries to break the spirit of the opponent. The opponent can survive and still continue the fight.
Minato's speed is at a level where making eye contact is almost impossible, let alone realizing u are making eye contact then actually using a technique. If sasuke can barely follow raiakge, then no one in hell itachi can follow minato.
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1. Itachi activating susanoo at the beginning is a good plan because it will let him live a bit longer but eventually he will run dry.
2. The blade of susanoo cannot seal away the kunais It only seal the souls of the opponents. As far as i know, physical objects don't have souls.
3. Amaretsu is not quick enough to catch Minato and no one in hell itachi can keep the use of amaretsu for long. Furthermore, Minato can teleport the incoming amaretsu right back at itachi.
Last edited by Charlie; July 26, 2011 at 07:37 PM.
If Minato sees Itachi slashing the kunai with anything or trying to Amaterasu them, he can just retrieve them before Itachi can complete the job. By the time Itachi gets to Kunai # 2 on his hit list, Minato will have retrieved the rest anyway. There is nothing in Itachi's arsenal capable of beating Minato in a race to the Kunai. During all this sword slashing and burning, Itachi would be depleting his already meager chakra, driving himself into a corner and basically committing suicide.
In a worst case scenario, as long as creatures and objects exist, Minato can restock for Hiraishin. He can place seals on things, np.
Last edited by jdw; July 26, 2011 at 06:47 PM.
arrived. He was still functioning for at least a minute. If Kakashi was able to last a while without fainting, why can't Minato?
move out of the way when Sasuke used kaaton on a lower floor out of nowhere. When he followed it up with two more, Itachi got out of the way fast enough that only his right arm caught on fire. Since Minato can't attack far away, he'd have to be close, which would help Itachi even more since he can see Minato clearly that Minato's speed isn't as big of an issue.
It depends, but it can affect its use against opponents with good reaction. If Itachi sees three kunai with seals and one in the back, then he can guess where Minato will come from and plan a trap. Itachi could easily set up Amaterasu around the seals so Minato would have to avoid going there. It wouldn't need to be an Amaterasu like the one against Sasuke, but just a small one that can do damage. If Itachi guesses right, then he can get Minato in a genjutsu as well.Quote:
I'm just giving a scenario, by the way. I don't think Minato would have his kunai in front only either, he'd spread it around. But depending on the distance to Itachi, he'd have more than enough time to react, but Minato can Hiraishin continuously and trick or make Itachi into thinking something. He can Hiraishin clockwise, and when Itachi prepares to strike, use Hiraishin counterclockwise and then attack Itachi from there.
Seeing as how Minato knew the problem with chidori, I'm sure he anticipated that Kakashi was in danger before Kakashi was even halfway there. He did stop Kakashi from using chidori initially and then explained why chidori was a bad idea after he saved Kakashi. Another reason why, despite what some say, I think Minato's very intelligent and very good at analyzing. He was able to guess chidori's weakness before even seeing it in action.
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Oh, and Sword of Totsuga can apparently seal stuff as well, it's not limited to just living things. Itachi can just use Susano'o to seal away kunai quickly as Susano'o's fast enough. Minato wouldn't know what's going on and/or would move away if Itachi feints with attacking Minato first, leaving tagged kunai open.
And unless Minato has more kunai that he can summon (he probably does, but there's no proof yet), he's shit outta luck with kunai and has to resort to tagging stuff. Depending on how the fight goes after this, and even before this, either one can win. If Itachi doesn't know about Minato being able to tag with just his chakra and can't see where Minato tagged, then Itachi will likely lose. If Itachi does know, then he'll be able to observe Minato and see where he tagged and then be able to react if Minato disappears.
They are both insanely smart and awesome. It eventually comes down to who has the more hax jutsus. Easy, Itachi. Itachi has less things to worry about fighting Minato and Vice Versa.
The fully armor version looks like this. And Itachi's look like this.
punched the wall and literally thrashed the ground As for breaking the skin, that's very questionable considering we have seen the Rasengan used against several opponents without doing any damage to the skin. Random fodder guy, Yuura, Hell Path, Deva Path. So by all accounts, the manga has shown the opposite.
And Kabuto didn't use up all his chakra. Doing that would have meant he would be dead and besides, Kabuto a few moments later got right back up and summoned Manda.
The shield's protection extends beyond where the shield itself is. Danzo needed one of his strongest techniques along with his Baku to enhance it to even make a dent and that was on a Susanoo without any armor. Minato doesn't possess any technique that can do that sort of damage. If his Rasengan can't even tear the planty Madara apart, how the heck could it ever hope to deal with Susanoo.
It's not a matter of interpretation. Kirabi didn't just do something like follow Minato's movements. Minato teleported in, so there as nothing to follow. Instead, Kirabi saw Minato teleport in and before Minato could even act, Kirabi was able to create a tentacle and help Ee before Minato could move his arm. So we clearly see that seeing and reacting to Hiraishin can be done with normal eyes, thus the Sharingan wouldn't have any trouble doing likewise with it's superior prediction abilities. And we didn't get to see what Ee would have done.
- Trick the target into preforming and doing what you want them to do.
- Paralyze the target to make it easier to take them out.
- Instantly knock out a ninja with prefect chakra control.
- Genjutsu can be used to change what the target is seeing, thus making them unable to react to it in time.
Minato's speed would only be a challenge when Hiraishin is being used and that can easily be gotten around. The Sharingan's prediction ability means that Itachi will know ahead of time what will happen and where Minato will be looking, allowing him to plan well ahead of Minato. Ee was using his max Lightning Cloak along with Shunshin and Sasuke was still able to lock his eyes on him. So speed clearly wouldn't be a major issue for landing a genjutsu, especially since we seen that it can be used in pretty much any distance and without locking direct eyesight.
I think this exact argument has been brought up and shut down at least once on every page of this thread.
You say "even high class ones" like it is uncommon,
Orochimaru, Deidara, and Kakashi were all high class. They were all owned by Itachi's genjutsu.
Kakashi was unable to fight after Tsukuyomi; he knew what it was and had a Sharingan.
Why in the hell should I just give Minato the benefit of the doubt that he will be just fine after getting hit by Tsukuyomi? Seriously, this baffles me to no end.
I never said he was going to lock them away, just keep them from being taken away. lol. Itachi cannot slash and burn as long as he wishes. He cannot use jutsu like that because he will die. Itachi must use his jutsu wisely, he cannot afford to spam even one time! Susanoo is not like Evangelion plugged into a wall, it is plugged into Itachi's life and chakra, killing and depleting him.
As for setting an area on fire, that is fine, but amaterasu isn't always fast moving, so it might depend on the terrain. But if Hiraishin is faster than the spawning of Amaterasu, it will likely be faster than the movement of a burning flame across lands. The flame will not torch land at the speed of light. Itachi cannot really flamethrow with his amaterasu, the poor little chase he gave Sasuke almost put him in his grave.
This whole "high level shinobi will somehow break out of Gen-jutsu and/or Tsukuyomi" argument is pretty damn funny.
Especially since a few of the strongest shinobi in the entire manga got owned by Itachi's Gen-jutsu. Notably being Orochimaru, Deidara, and Kakashi. We all know Kakashi got KO'd by Tsukuyomi. However that also happened around the same time that Kakashi nearly crapped his pants when he confronted Orochimaru due to the gap in their strength. Yet we all saw what Itachi did to Orochimaru. And i'm pretty sure Itachi didn't wait till Orochimaru was on his death bed to own him, like Sasuke did. Not to mention that Itachi did the exact same thing to Deidara and nearly had him kill himself. I mean that right there is an example of three extremely powerful shinobi getting basically one shotted by Itachi's Gen-jutsu. Actually i don't think Itachi even had to use Tsukuyomi on Orochimaru and Deidara.
But then again, this is Minato. The man who turns water into wine simply because he can. Hell i bet he can even materialize water out of air!
Itachi can "slash and burn" as long as he needs to place Minato in a trap. His fight with Sasuke proves that the argument of Itachi not being able to do it for long doesn't work. Itachi was able to hold his second Susanoo for at least five minutes, after using a bunch of normal and MS techniques while blind and coughing up blood. So there's no reason Itachi wouldn't be able to hold it that long, if not longer, when he has more chakra and health to make use of. Since Itachi can shoot Amaterasu as big as he wishes, he could be able to cover an entire area in the flames instantly. Itachi would not have to wait for the flames to spread, especially since the tag coverage isn't that huge. Itachi would be able to trap Minato and remove Hiraishin from his usage at a minor cost. Then Itachi can fully focus on Minato while he has no place to escape too.
Manga disagrees with you. Minato doesn't need to tag something to teleport it. Show me pages where he touched the Kyubi. Kishi shows us everytime Minato tags something. The tag is not to teleport something but to teleport to that location. If that was the case then he needed to touch the biju ball to teleport it. I need to see pages where he needed to tag something to teleport it.
Kabuto in his exact words: "Of course as a trade off, it uses up about all my chakra". Unless kabuto now lies to the readers in his mind.
Sasuke used up all his chakra that he had to turn off the sharingan and when Deidara was about to explode, Sasuke summoned Manda. The summoning logic does not work.