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Thread: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

  1. #46
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by xi0 View Post
    I take exception with you referring to one act of terrorism as terrorism while not doing so for what happened in Norway. Hence me saying opinion hardly factors into it. I'm not saying that your definition is entirely wrong, only that it is too overly precise. The IRA committed terrorism, The Mafia committed terrorism, Gangs commit terrorism, hell the Boston Tea Party was terrorism in a fashion.
    philosophical or is it logical, meh, counter argument: so, everything is terrorism? that means that nothing you listed is then Terrorism...

    (ya, I know, you can say the same thing about crime, lol... if everything is a crime, then nothing is a crime, lol... meh)

    or, you're blurring Terrorism with crime, of course "terror" exists in EVERYTHING "BAD/WRONG", what crime doesn't involve "Terror" ??? A robber holding a knife asking for my wallet/money is "terrorizing". Is the robber a Terrorist ?? Heck, even personal nightmares while you're sleeping as a kid are "terrorizing", a friend jumping out surprising me in shock, is "terrorizing", a kid bullying another kid is "terrorizing". This is absurd, yet you're definining Terrorism as "terror". Now, prosecutors love this, as they can use thus criminally/UNconstitutionally use "terrorism" to prosecute anyone that they want to bypassing/breaking all laws, including constitutional law, it's a "blank prosecuting (UNconstitutional) check" for them. "Terror" is very different from Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by xiO
    I would love to get into a philosophical debate on what "peace" really is, but this isn't the time or place. I guess you're ignoring a large portion the entire continent of Africa, the Wars between the Drug Cartels in Mexico and South America, unrest in the Levant. No one is saying the Middle East isn't volatile.
    oh, as I did point out in my previous post, the world (humanity) certainly isn't fully-truly peaceful, that's certainly impossible, lol.

    the only way to measure practical peace: no more wars, no more countries killing countries.

    We would have world peace... but...

    Only the middle east continues to do this (wage [imperialistic/conquest] war) for the vast majority most part.

    Africa... I lump it was one big country... it's just hopeless... a failure of humanity... And the Middle East is pretty much the same as well. Both of which are really sad, as they were so great in the past... contributing so much and leading the world in science and betterment of humanity, but now... that's not so.... so sad... but at least Africa is keeping its problems to itself.... the Middle East is taking its failuredness' agression out upon the world. Just like Germany after wwI... instead of blaming themselves... they have to blame others... blame the Jews...

    (see my links of Sam Harris discussions in my previous post, as he came up with "Wellness" instead of the more commonly philosophical "Happiness" concept. Which, I thinks works soo well, and as he argues so well: the Auswits Germans are genuininely smiling and happy as they take a picture, before they go back to genociding their prisoners. Obviously happiness is not a good metric to use, but "Wellness" is, a country that is committing genocide is not experiencing "Wellness", this is unarguably, undeniable. Committing genocide is not the highest level of "Wellness" in a people/society/country, no, they're not well, they're rather quite SICK... inhumanly SICK, psychotic....)

    **************************************************

    from my earlier post: here's the Sam Harris links

    Sam Harris explains Islam (as well as other religions too) very well:

    3. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/295992-6
    (~32:00 is when he starts to talk about Islam, but please watch the entire vid, as it is very educational, there's tons of good information throughout the vid and not just the part about Islam, as he's very smart)

    5. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3379993458418#
    (~15:00 is when he starts to talk about Islam, but please watch the entire vid, as it is very educational, there's tons of good information throughout the vid and not just the part about Islam, as he's very smart)

    --------------------------------

    1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_(author)
    (see bottom of wikipedia for more links of vids of him speaking/discussing/debating)

    he's a philosopher = immediately I know he's very very very very smart, lol. (HK has extreme respect for philosophy after taking just philosophy 101, as prior to it, I had no idea what philosophy was, it and the prof. greatly impressed and interested me, hehe)

    he's a neuroscientist too... backing up his statements with actual scientific study of the brain

    etc...

    ---------------------------------

    2. http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&h...w=1016&bih=563
    4. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1663903762676#
    6. http://www.ajula.edu/Content/Content...766&u=7037&t=0
    7. etc...

    **************************************************************************

    Quote Originally Posted by xiO
    I can't, because the majority of terrorism being practiced in today's world is done by those who are Muslim or those that refer to themselves as Muslim. That's a fact. What isn't a fact is that all Muslims are jihadists or have these views. It's incredibly close-minded to condemn 1.5 Billion people as terrorists, when it just isn't the case. It's factions within the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia and Southeast Asia that do these things. FACTIONS. I've never met a Muslim who meant me harm.
    why do you say this? I never said this, nor do I think this. This is quite offensive/slanderous or do you have the source/post of where I ever quantify ALL Muslims as being Terrorists. I have never said so, I even said correctly that only a small/minuscule amount of Muslims are Terrorists.

    If you can't find the source of me saying ALL (or any quanitifying amount for that matter of, besides corectly stating that most Muslims are NOT Terrorists) Muslims are Terrorists, than I'd appreciate if you would retract your very offensive and slanderous statement of "It's incredibly close-minded to condemn 1.5 Billion people as terrorists, when it just isn't the case. (xiO)". thanks.

    And what do all these factions share? Islam, they're all Islamic/Muslims, they're doing their genocide in the name of Islam/Allah.

    Muslims (Terrorists) in Indonesia (SE Asia) have comitted genocide blowing up innocent people

    Muslims (Terrorists) in India (southern Central Asia) have comitted genocide blowing up innocent people (mumbai, twice now)

    Muslims (Terrorists) as the government of Sudan have comitted genocide ("ethnic cleansing") of innocent Africans (Darfur)

    Muslim (Terrorists) did 9-11 genociding ~3000 innocent people (but, the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, killing however many people, was actually a legitimate act of war, as the Pentagon is certainly a military target)

    Muslim (Terrorists) blew up the wedding in Jordan

    do I need to list more world events... there's a ton more still to list... ????

    Quote Originally Posted by xiO
    If there's no agreeable definition in your opinion why are you trying to define it? Why are you citing US Law when you said in an earlier post that it's not the same as other CRIMINAL action or CRIMES and shouldn't be grouped with them. If it is an act of war, then how exactly does the Law factor into it?
    I'm defining it, since everyone else seems to be having such difficulty, Obama isn't the only audacious one, hehe

    the U.S. law was jus sourced as it is an official (law) definition, and a pretty (or more) thorough/specific one too. I looked at some of the others, but they were much more ambigious, more UNdefininig...

    Quote Originally Posted by xiO
    You're speaking of terrorism carried out by Muslim Extremists who hate ALL forms of Western influence. So if a Pakistani terrorist blows up a Mosque in Pakistan, that's not terrorism? But if it's in another country it is? I don't get the discrepancy here, I'm sorry.
    I presume you mean to say a Pakistani Muslim who was born and lives in let's say India, which is questioning ethnicity vs religion identity, correct?

    hmm... that's hard, I'd have to think about this, but this is still merely getting into greater (more narrow) detail/specifics...

    I guess, this would be the best decision: If you attack a country that is not your own, it is Terrorism, even if it is your same religion that you're attacking. Now if the Pakistani Muslim blew up his own mosque in India, then he'd not be a Terrorist. It's easier to just stick with borders and ignore religion, hehe

    if you attack your own country in a "pseudo war (genocidal)" like manner = its NOT terrorism = it's civil war, civil unrest, and/or violent political protesting

    if you attack another country in a "pseudo war (genocidal)" like manner = its Terrorism

    if you attack another country in a war (with a reasonable purpose/reason) = it's War

    (if you want to debate whether Terrorism upon Europe is Terrorism or a 1,000 year old grudge war, that has some legitimacy, but there's no 1,000 year old grudge war between the U.S., as we're only ~200-300 years old lol, and the middle east... why the f'... are we attacked... we're NOT european crusaders... we f'... fought back against England and won... creating the U.S., we didn't like the English either... lol)

    (oh, the world hates the U.S.' hegemony, ya so what, ya we know we're the only country brave enough to be the hero of the world while all the countries cower and covet their inept and disgraceful U.N. as it watches genocide after genocide after genocide doing NOTHING just like 100 "bystanding" people in Richmond California, CA, U.S. just watched a bunch of adult men gang rape a 15 year old girl, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_334975.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrcc2oPBW3A, stop being cowards and blaming us, the U.S. for you own problems, you're acting just like Germany after wwI blaming the Jews for the Germans own problems, and as liberals love to blame the rich.. it's always the riches fault... just blame the rich... if I don't study for a test a fail it... it's the riches fault!!! damnnit!!! we got so many whining losers who can't take responsbility for themselves, having to blame others who are completely uninvolved and innocent. human behavior never changes... blame someone else instead of yourself for your own failings... sighs... "Pick yourself out the the ditch that you fell in!" -HK)

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan
    Terrorism is completely different, it's, its own unique and new beast. Waging a pseudo-war of genocide upon the world, blowing up innocent women and children, blowing up weddings, blowing up police cadets/trainees, blowing up buses or trains, flying planes into the world trade towers, blowing up planes (Pan Am), genocide and rape upon their own women, and etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by xiO
    Is that not domestic? Didn't you just say and repeat that terrorism is not domestic?...
    in my quote above I was combining acts of terrorism with deplorable (but non-terorristic) behaviors, in regards to the Middle East. sorry for the confusion that it seemed like I was listing all of these things as terrorism.

    Terrorism:

    upon people of other countries: "Waging a pseudo-war of genocide upon the world, blowing up innocent women and children, blowing up weddings, blowing up police cadets/trainees, blowing up buses or trains, flying planes into the world trade towers, blowing up planes (Pan Am). (HK)".

    NON-terrorism:

    "genocide and rape upon their own women (HK)"
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; July 30, 2011 at 09:48 AM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

  2. #47
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shaheer's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    Quote Quote:
    Islamic Terrorists today blowing up innocent people today and their despotic govs with their police slaughtering people, raping women, and torturing kids, and psychotic mobs frenziilied raping female journalists and reporters. Very inhuman, very ravenously animalistic.
    OK here is the thing
    They are terrorist NOT islamic terrorist,we muslims dont have any sort of condolences to any one who rapes and tortures. Killing of woman children in a war is considered to be an evil act in Quran and ahadith, raping them is not even a question to be asked. SO please rephrase this to terrorist Oly not Islamic terrorist
    Islam has got nothing to do with the terrorist acts being committed and using Islamic terrorist makes them catagorized to be a muslim attack wing when they are not

    Quote Quote:
    Many Muslim scholars and/or Koran scholars actually say that the Terrorists understand Islam the best, that they are acting upon the Koran's words. Sam harris calls the Koran, ~"A war diary by a military general, Muhammad".
    again tahts the terrorists who are justifying actions from their own perspective to gain support from the mass The muslims have got nothing to do with it
    and neither does Islam, so there is no such thing as Islamic terrorist thats being thumped as terrorist tag

    and there are Verses from Quran and ahadith that forbids suicide
    now i leave it to the others to get what they want
    whether the source of Islam is Quran(the Holy book of Islam) and ahadith(prophetic sayings) or is it sam harrris
    btw I am not raving when i say Quran forbids sucide
    "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. Qur'an chap 4:29

    Also the 2 of the greatest scholar of Islam who died 10 yrs back were asked for give fatwa abt this and both mentioned its TOTALLY forbidden in Islam

    so i hope i ve given enough insight as to what we believe and do we have anything to do with the terrorism
    if an individual commits a crime its the fault of the Individual and even according to Islamic law it s to be punished.

    incidentally you mentioned that you dont know arabic so you cant comment or sth
    Sam harris doesnt know arabic either. Just because he flashes big credentials doesnt make him an authority to judge a particular human race

    ---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------

    and Jihad means to strife and struggle, in Islamic perspective its striving for the sake of God.
    it can be anything, say for expample : if i try my best to help a lady to hospital after she collapses in the street thats considerred to be jihad on my part.
    jihad is a mistranslated word thats being thrown in the media

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  4. #48
    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つMOLLY༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member xi0's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    philosophical counter argument: so, everything is terrorism? that means that nothing you listed is then Terrorism...

    (ya, I know, you can say the same thing about crime, lol... if everything is a crime, then nothing is a crime, lol... meh)

    or, you're blurring Terrorism with crime, of course "terror" exists in EVERYTHING "BAD/WRONG", what crime doesn't involve "Terror" ??? A robber holding a knife asking for my wallet/money is "terrorizing". Is the robber a Terrorist ?? Heck, even personal nightmares while you're sleeping as a kid are "terrorizing", a friend jumping out surprising me in shock, is "terrorizing", a kid bullying another kid is "terrorizing". This is absurd, yet you're definining Terrorism as "terror". Now, prosecutors love this, as they can use thus criminally/UNconstitutionally use "terrorism" to prosecute anyone that they want to bypassing/breaking all laws, including constitutional law, it's a "blank prosecuting (UNconstitutional) check" for them. "Terror" is very different from Terrorism
    It's a slippery slope and your post proves it. I believe there is a line somewhere, as ill-defined as it may be, but there are elements of "lesser" crimes that have much in common with terrorism. However, it wasn't my intention to suggest nightmares as terrorism...that's a rather huge leap. I believe the line between what is terrorism and what isn't is MUCH less defined than you apparently believe it to be. I'll just leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    why do you say this? I never said this, nor do I think this. This is quite offensive/slanderous or do you have the source/post of where I ever quantify ALL Muslims as being Terrorists. I have never said so, I even said correctly that only a small/minuscule amount of Muslims are Terrorists.

    If you can't find the source of me saying ALL (or any quanitifying amount for that matter of, besides corectly stating that most Muslims are NOT Terrorists) Muslims are Terrorists, than I'd appreciate if you would retract your very offensive and slanderous statement of "It's incredibly close-minded to condemn 1.5 Billion people as terrorists, when it just isn't the case. (xiO)". thanks.
    I was using hyperbole to make a point, just as you do. But if I'm alone in seeing some of this type of attitude in your arguments then I'll shut up. I think you have more common sense than to really feel that way of course. I just think you were painting a group of people with an awfully broad brush.

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    I'm defining it, since everyone else seems to be having such difficulty, Obama isn't the only audacious one, hehe
    That's the precise issue. It isn't easily defined, because there is no agreeable, succinct definition. There are many reasonable ones though, and yours is not, as it is too exclusionary for my tastes.

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    I presume you mean to say a Pakistani Muslim who was born and lives in let's say India, which is questioning ethnicity vs religion identity, correct?

    hmm... that's hard, I'd have to think about this, but this is still merely getting into greater (more narrow) detail/specifics...

    I guess, this would be the best decision: If you attack a country that is not your own, it is Terrorism, even if it is your same religion that you're attacking. Now if the Pakistani Muslim blew up his own mosque in India, then he'd not be a Terrorist. It's easier to just stick with borders and ignore religion, hehe

    if you attack your own country in a "pseudo war (genocidal)" like manner = its NOT terrorism

    if you attack another country in a "pseudo war (genocidal)" like manner = its Terrorism
    No. A Pakistani citizen committing acts against other Pakistanis in Pakistan. That's not terrorism to you? So in no shape or form OKC or what happened in Norway was terrorism? So the Anthrax scares weren't terrorism either? What about acts that involve victims that are of multi-national background? You do know that citizens of other countries, including those from Muslim countries died in 9/11 right? So if a Pakistani Muslim extremist somehow only manages to kill his own countrymen in an attack it's mass-murder and not terrorism. But if he kills some Indian Muslims it's terrorism. So nationality or ethnicity is the sole determining factor in whether an act is terrorism or not...but religion doesn't? What about Shi'ites and Sunnis using the same exact methods used in terrorist attacks to kill innocents in Pakistan? That's not terrorism? That's pretzel logic to me.

    Your definition is too narrow.
    Last edited by xi0; July 30, 2011 at 09:37 AM.

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  6. #49
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by shaheer View Post
    OK here is the thing
    They are terrorist NOT islamic terrorist,we muslims dont have any sort of condolences to any one who rapes and tortures. Killing of woman children in a war is considered to be an evil act in Quran and ahadith, raping them is not even a question to be asked. SO please rephrase this to terrorist Oly not Islamic terrorist
    Islam has got nothing to do with the terrorist acts being committed and using Islamic terrorist makes them catagorized to be a muslim attack wing when they are not
    this is factually/realitally incorrect: "Islam has got nothing to do with the terrorist acts being committed and using Islamic terrorist makes them catagorized to be a muslim attack wing when they are not (shaheer)"

    They think they are Islamic, I'll leave it to you and them to debate what's "Islamic" and what's a "perversion of Islam", as I certainly don't know Islam. I have heard from some Muslims or Koran scholars that actually the Terrorists are faithfully "preaching" Islam and the Koran in their deplorable acts, they're being "good" Muslims obeying/following the Koran, killing "infidels" (non-muslims). Though, this is obviously a debate between Muslims, to argue over/about. Christians have heinous lines in the Bible as well, and in the past they certainly done awful things (the Crusades and more), but now for the most part they aren't, but Muslims are, as the Terrorists say and think and beleive that they ARE MUSLIMS, that they are doing Allah's will/wishes, ?Allah ahkbar? (forgive my spelling - God is great!). Again this is for Muslims, Terroristic Muslims and Non-Terroristic Muslims, to debate within their societies. We, non-Muslims, have no idea which is the correct Islam, is it the Terroristic-Muslims Islam or is it the Non-terroristic Muslims Islam, which is the true Islam ? Is modern Islam a "Death Cult", or is it still peaceful like the original Islam, Dais-Islam (again forgive me, as I can't remember correctly what it's called/spelled as, argh-bad memory)

    Quote Originally Posted by shaheer
    again tahts the terrorists who are justifying actions from their own perspective to gain support from the mass The muslims have got nothing to do with it
    and neither does Islam, so there is no such thing as Islamic terrorist thats being thumped as terrorist tag

    and there are Verses from Quran and ahadith that forbids suicide
    now i leave it to the others to get what they want
    whether the source of Islam is Quran(the Holy book of Islam) and ahadith(prophetic sayings) or is it sam harrris
    btw I am not raving when i say Quran forbids sucide
    "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. Qur'an chap 4:29

    Also the 2 of the greatest scholar of Islam who died 10 yrs back were asked for give fatwa abt this and both mentioned its TOTALLY forbidden in Islam

    so i hope i ve given enough insight as to what we believe and do we have anything to do with the terrorism
    if an individual commits a crime its the fault of the Individual and even according to Islamic law it s to be punished.

    incidentally you mentioned that you dont know arabic so you cant comment or sth
    Sam harris doesnt know arabic either. Just because he flashes big credentials doesnt make him an authority to judge a particular human race

    and Jihad means to strife and struggle, in Islamic perspective its striving for the sake of God.
    it can be anything, say for expample : if i try my best to help a lady to hospital after she collapses in the street thats considerred to be jihad on my part.
    jihad is a mistranslated word thats being thrown in the media
    I think Sam Harris has actually studied the Koran and Islam, as well as many other religions (he traveled to Asia, learning many of their religions/spiritualities; Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism, Confucianism, and etc) as well. It's his area of expertise. But, this is for him to deal with, not me, lol. He's to defend himself.

    ----

    The Christian's bible, has many contradictory lines, saying peaceful things and equally saying inhumanly cruel/evil things.

    I'm sure the Quran has this problem as well. Hence Terrorism and peaceful Muslims split that we see. While the Koran may have those peaceful lines as you mentioned, I'm sure it has equally vile lines saying to slay all the Infidels, it's Allah's will/wishes, and such.

    The Bible does this too (God says to "smite"/kill/murder all of his enemies, all those who don't believe in Christ/christianity/or himself-God, while also saying to be peaceful and caring to each other).

    ---

    yes, we human beings love "struggle"

    Jihad = struggle (this is the one thing that I do know accurately about Islam, hehe)

    Hitler's Mein Kompfh = "my struggle"

    English's word of "struggle" = struggle (lol)

    unfortunately... "Struggle" is a powerful word/concept/idea that is dear to humans' hearts (the "struggling underdog/team"), and thus it's been used for evil, just like religions and governments have/are used as well for evil.

    -------

    no... our media/press/news is just stupid, lol , well maybe that's just harsh... you might be pleased to know that our atheist/secular media probably knows more about Islam than Christianity, but that's not saying much... most of our media is liberal-atheistic, and they know nothing about any religion.. Religion to our media/press is like silver to a werewolf...

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    xiO,

    it's not a broad brush, and as soon as Buddhists, Christians, Germans, Americans, or whatever type of group goes around blowing up the world, they'll be in the same crazed group as the Islamists/Muslims are: Terrorists.

    My view is based upon reality, behavior, action. So far only Muslims/Islamics are going around blowing up the world, as soon as another group (hopefully this doesn't happen sighs) joins in, I'll broaden my Terrorist categorization to them as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by xiO
    I was using hyperbole to make a point, just as you do. But if I'm alone in seeing some of this type of attitude in your arguments then I'll shut up. I think you have more common sense than to really feel that way of course. I just think you were painting a group of people with an awfully broad brush.
    my apologizes then, sorry for not realizing you were hyperbolizing, sorry for over-reacting, getting upset, on my part.

    I love hyperboles, as I use them liberally, lol! So, again my apologizes for misunderstanding you. sighs.

    Quote Originally Posted by xiO
    No. A Pakistani citizen committing acts against other Pakistanis in Pakistan. That's not terrorism to you? So in no shape or form OKC or what happened in Norway was terrorism? So the Anthrax scares weren't terrorism either? What about acts that involve victims that are of multi-national background? You do know that citizens of other countries, including those from Muslim countries died in 9/11 right? So if a Pakistani Muslim extremist somehow only manages to kill his own countrymen in an attack it's mass-murder and not terrorism. But if he kills some Indian Muslims it's terrorism. So nationality or ethnicity is the sole determining factor in whether an act is terrorism or not...but religion doesn't? What about Shi'ites and Sunnis using the same exact methods used in terrorist attacks to kill innocents in Pakistan? That's not terrorism? That's pretzel logic to me.

    Your definition is too narrow.
    ah, my bad, I didn't understand what ypu meant.

    like I said... this is getting into more fine details... and takes much more thinking... lol... but I'll try anyways...

    "A Pakistani citizen committing acts against other Pakistanis in Pakistan. (xiO)":

    NOT terrorism, it's heinous violent mass-murder/genocidal *CRIMES* and/or civil war/unrest.

    (was the U.S. Civil War terrorism?, NO. Are Suuni, Sheia, Bask, and Kurds violence of each other in Iraq, Terrorism? NO. Are Iranians, Saudis, Syrians, Pakistanis, or whoever else coming into Iraq and blowing up people, terrorism? YES!)

    "So in no shape or form OKC (xiO)":

    NOT Terrorism, just a violent heinous mass murder/death crime or a civil unrest (a violent heinous mass murder/death political protest)

    "what happened in Norway was terrorism (xiO)":

    NOT terrorism, see OKC above

    "So the Anthrax scares weren't terrorism either (xiO)"

    NOT Terrorism, see OKC above

    "What about acts that involve victims that are of multi-national background? (xiO)":

    it's the act itself and the act's "motive/purpose or lack of motive/purpose", that defines whether its a crime/civil protest, war/civil war, or Terrorism

    "what about that guy who flew his plane into an IRS/bank-like building (HK)":

    NOT terrorism, see OKC

    "what about Nat Turner and other such violent or vandalistic riots? (HK)""

    NOT terrorism, see OKC

    "do know that citizens of other countries, including those from Muslim countries died in 9/11 right? (xiO)":

    yes, of course. Indeed Muslims (American Muslims and maybe non-American Muslims too, not sure how many foreigners vs U.S. citizens were in there though) were killed right along "anglo-saxon white Americans" along with Japanese, Canadians, and whoever else, supporting my definition of Terrorism, as this was truly an attack upon the world/humanity.

    "what about the plane that crashed and killed people at the pentagon? (HK)":

    NOT terrorism, at all !!!! this was/is a military target, this was an act of war through and through, a military strike/attack upon a military target. 100% NOT a terrorist act. This fully falls under war, as a legal target of war under the Geneva Convention.

    "So if a Pakistani Muslim extremist somehow only manages to kill his own countrymen in an attack it's mass-murder and not terrorism. (xiO)":

    if you mean he killed people in pakistan, then it's NOT Terrorism. If he kills people in another country, than it's terrorism.

    "But if he kills some Indian Muslims it's terrorism. (xiO)"":

    if they are in Pakistan, than its NOT terrorism. if they are not in Pakistan, than it's Terrorism.

    "So nationality or ethnicity is the sole determining factor in whether an act is terrorism or not...but religion doesn't? What about Shi'ites and Sunnis using the same exact methods used in terrorist attacks to kill innocents in Pakistan? That's not terrorism? That's pretzel logic to me. (xiO)":

    thanks, this actually helps me with my own argument, lol.

    Indeed, religion (being religious) is actually *NOT* a factor in making one a terrorist, in my definition of Terrorism.

    If the sunnis/shi'ites are in pakistan than it's NOT terrorism, it's just a heinous mass-murdering/genocidal CRIMINAL act, using the same bombing method/brutality.

    (the method of brutality nor the amount of lives murdered also doesn't make one a Terrorist. Terrorism often involves genocide/mass murder, but so do crimes like gang wars such as "a drive by shooting", and thus Terrorism doesn't require X minimum amount of people murdered, nor is Genocide/mass murder terrorism, as it can be crime or even war, such as the U.S. Civil War or wwI or wwII, war crimes/atrocities are just that, war crimes/atrocities. Terrorism is not war though, it's a pseudo war. It's like... you have a justified murder, such as some one murders your daughter and as the father you kill/murder him - we can certainly understand the reason for this behavior and its purpose/goal/intent/motive even as it legally still is a crime-murder by the father - we can understand the murderous act by the father, be it right or wrong. But Terrorism, is like the "sensless" crimes that we can't undertand the point or the goal of, such a let's say Laughner or the Norway guy. Terrorism is when Laughner or the Norway guy do what they did upon another country or countries, wanting to change the entire world or whatever other crazy/psychotic thing/motive/reason which I can't understand at all, lol)

    -----------------------

    also, I forgot to say this earlier:

    the european christian/catholic crusaders WERE terrorists of their day/time, leaving their countries to go commit genocide upon other countries. It would be war if they just engaged in trying to take Jerusalem, but not when they rape and pillage and murder/genocide every innocent place/country/town along the way. The Muslims in Jerusalem defending themselves in Jerusalem, were just that Muslims defending themselves. Muslims were so much more peaceful and accepting of other people and religions back then, but that has changed all thanks to despotic theocrats or despotic dictators perverting daius-Islam into the modern Islam (that we westerners know, the violent/psychotic/genocidal/"Death Cult" kind of the terroristic Muslims).

    now, so far (and hopefully it stays or better ends) it's only Islamists/Muslims as the Terrorists
    (and a lot of criminals getting "jealous" of or inspired by the Terrorists' mass brutatlity, sad sad sad...)
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; July 30, 2011 at 12:06 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

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    MH's Most High Quality Poster 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member earthforge's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    Look, hege, the one thing you can't prove is that terrorism only refers to religion. It does not, even according to the definition you posted.

    Yes, terror is used in all walks of life to varying degrees. Heck, "finish your food now or you'll get a spanking" is a form of it. But as we grow as a civilization, we're beginning to hold the use of terror as contemptuous. The use of terror to commit a crime I think is what you're referring to. Tim McVeigh, Jared Loughner, this guy in Norway, the people who coordinated the 9/11 attacks - they are criminals who use terror to "prove" their agenda. And yes, they are criminals. But it isn't because of religion - it is because they killed scores of people in a crazed attempt to "prove" they were right.

    All it comes down to is "it doesn't matter where we die, it doesn't matter that you cry, we will take you with us."

    Terror is the act. It becomes a crime when it kills or hurts others. That is the break down of the word. You are free to believe that terror is more special than a crime, but the dictionary and definitions disagree.

    The US is a nation state with a history that it isn't proud of either. Do you really want to open that can of worms? We've had the McCarthy error, we've detonated uncountable nuclear bombs just to see what they did (only now it's coming to light), we've poisoned an entire town with nuclear materials just to see what would happen, we gave our own troops drugs that made a portion go insane. I'm not saying the US is the root of all evil, but to say that it is pure is just wrong. In fact, it is you who is pulling the terrorist justification: "our state is god's state, it is pure."
    Avatar © Chelsea Gordon, author of Not Quite Normal.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted k-dom's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    9/11 is not the day terrorism started, it's the day America discovered that terrorism exist. While it was outside, they didn't care but as soon as some american civilians were involved they started this war against terrorism.
    I don't try to minimize the importance of 9/11 but making it the beginning of something is just another stone in the field of those who think that american only think about themselves and know little about the rest of the world. And I'm sorry to see someone like you HK, who always take pride in his studies, give some credits to this stereotype.
    You are simplifying things way too much
    Always speaking about genocide. Can you tell me which genocide exactly are you talking about, as far as I know there are no genocide occuring in western country and most of the victims of Al qaida have been other muslim people. Among the recent genocides of the last decades, were the one in Rwanda and Ex-Yougoslavia, and those had nothing to do with middle east so please try to use such strong word with a bit more care.
    I'm really curious to know the number of victims of this genocidal mass murder war you are talking about. As far as I know the number of casualty is rather low if you compare it to the other military conflicts. Moreover 90% of those victims are other muslims.

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    MH's Most High Quality Poster 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member earthforge's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    Not quite, k-dom. Before 9/11, the biggest terrorist incident on the American people's minds was the Oklahoma City Bombing - it was the icon of terrorism. Now it's been forgotten. I didn't even know about it until last year, and I'm pretty well educated. It's been forgotten in the same way the assassination of Giffords is slowly being forgotten, because those incidents say that pandering to hate of the government, hate of society and general hate of everything can lead to the more mentally unstable going off their rocker. What happened in Norway tells me is that it can happen anywhere. What worries me is that in the US, we beg the lightening to strike so-to-speak by ignoring and forgetting our domestic terrorists who are just as bad as Al Qaida.

    Also, CBlitz, xi0, and myself are American and we're not agreeing with HK.
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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    And what - oh right. I'm an American as well. <_< I thought 9/11 was the second attack on World Trade Center?


    Quote Quote:
    Also, I speak from the actions done by the Middle East, let's be blunt, the Middle east is the only violent spot on the Earth (excluding the crime in Mexico with their drug lords and such) that isn't peaceful, we're so close to finally having peace on Earth, if it wasn't for the Middle East.
    Do you read the news or only news that are anti-Middle East or anti-Islam? There's violence everywhere, especially in America and Africa. The thing is, America doesn't care about Africa as much (this is what I think though) and America is used to violence in some areas (close to cities like Compton, Camden, NY, etc) so you won't see it get shown as much unless it's mass murder, horrible murder, or murder of innocent people (though the latter can be related to former two more often than not).

    The thing is, Muslims aren't necessarily violent. LIke few Christians, there are few Muslims who take their religion/sayings of their religion too seriously and start to go crazy with it. Go to any religious town and claim god doesn't exist or evolution holds true, you may become an outcast and if you keep at that idea long enough, you will be attacked by a few. Muslims aren't the only ones guilty of this, and even then there are few Muslims that are terrorists, using their religion as excuse. The problem is, they take it too seriously, but Catholics and Christians aren't necessarily innocent either. Catholics, if I read my history right, traveled to places and converted anyone they saw in America to Catholicism, while Christians in America have vehemently argued for their "rights" to pray in school and all that jazz. In terms of terrorism, how do you know Catholics, Christians, and other religions aren't committing acts of terror anywhere else? Not everything that happens gets publicized... in fact, I'm not sure the bombings in India (in Mumbai few weeks ago) got publicized in American news (but I don't really read or watch the news and may not have known if I didn't follow Indians on Twitter), but I rarely saw any mention. Same years ago when my dad was in India. It's just Muslims nowadays that get publicized because of America's sentiments towards that particular religion, and most news companies do this for ratings. No Muslims ever get anything good said about them (from what I recall), but anything bad they do gets instantly shared.

    Also, stop quoting Sam Harris. From what it looks like, he's a closeminded idiot who claims to be unbiased, but is biased.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, Middle Easterners made themselves rightfully hated, as, as a human being and people, you don't going around blowing up innocent people, we have every right, and in our sanity, to condemn Islam and its violent genocidal Terrorism upon the world, it's a cancer to the world that needs to be wiped out completely.
    And can you say we're innocent? What if we vilified the Muslims so much (in our home anyway) that some of them actually resorted to terrorism? You may say we have every right to condemn Islam, but that in itself can create more terrorists who got so disillusioned from being treated like shit. I've seen a movie like this once, where there was a patriotic Muslim who turned into a terrorist after being suspected as one and treated horribly by US government, which is possible.

    Do you think America would have been attacked had it not interfered in Middle East's business years and decades back? I mean, America has rarely minded its own business, interfering in stuff for its own self interest, like saving the Shah of Iran (or Iraq, I forgot, but this was around 80s or early 90s) when most of the people in his country wanted him dead. America saved him because of oil or something. Can you really say attacks on America was unprovoked (though it'll never be justified)? Stereotyping Islams as terrorist is, to me, same as stereotyping Americans as fat, lazy idiots.

    earthforge, I don't think we forget our domestic terrorists. I've read a lot of articles of how terrorists in US were caught. I guess other countries aren't as high-wound because they feel safe enough. I dunno.

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    Magma♥ MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Akainu's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    There were quite a few interesting articles in the past days:

    ibra linked me to this danish one here (translated by aunt google), it is essentially shedding some light on the dark side of the norwegians who - in the first few minutes/hours seem to have attacked foreign looking people which is really sad because it dents the positive view norway/norwegians got by overcoming the hate with love.

    this one here is a little video showing how christians refuse to call the terrorist a christian, but are fast to call other terrorists 'muslim'
    (here more relativation is shown by Fox News - really horrible channel ._. )

    and the first part of this video continues on the role of the mass media, especially new york times substituting the terrorist with a extremist.


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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shaheer's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    Quote Quote:
    They think they are Islamic, I'll leave it to you and them to debate what's "Islamic" and what's a "perversion of Islam", as I certainly don't know Islam. I have heard from some Muslims or Koran scholars that actually the Terrorists are faithfully "preaching" Islam and the Koran in their deplorable acts, they're being "good" Muslims obeying/following the Koran, killing "infidels" (non-muslims). Though, this is obviously a debate between Muslims, to argue over/about
    Thank you, i do that personally you know.

    Quote Quote:
    I think Sam Harris has actually studied the Koran and Islam, as well as many other religions (he traveled to Asia, learning many of their religions/spiritualities; Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism, Confucianism, and etc) as well
    you know for around 15 yrs i have been studying Quran i am still not at a position to pass a comment abt it
    the Tafsir ie exegesis of Quran is so huge that to finish one(as there are many tafsir of the single text) will take one individual few yrs(by finish i dont mean read it through but understand)

    dark lord here knows Arabic as his mother tongue yet he cant say he understands Quran.

    the translation s of the Quran are done just to make the individuals aware of what the Quran is abt
    no translation is claimed to be the Quran, as such if you are not reading arabic text you are not reading Quran you are reading paraphrase for us lay man
    the Qurna is only in arabic.
    ie sam harris never studied Quran he merely studied the translation s of it . Arabic scholars all over will agree that the translation doesnt do the QUran justice

    Thats y any study of Quran what so ever in any institute demands that he or she learns arabic
    so in Medina uni(the best islamic uni of the world today) if you are going to study abt Islam you have to take a 1-2 yrs course in arabic first
    if the ones who studied Quran needs to learn arabic first to start the basic courses abt Quran how can a guy who is not a muslim and who doesnt know arabic to boot be taken as an authority to tag us as DEATH CULT?
    This i hope is My last comment in this thread so i ll just say this
    Islam advocates peace but if gives individuals right for self defense
    thus first few verse that ask a muslim to fight other says
    Fight those who fight you but do not transgress as Allah dont like the transgressors
    its in chap 2 of the Quran
    so blasting down the twin tower had got nothing to do with islam but if some one comes in to attack us then we have the right to survive
    there for when sam harris says that Quran is a text book of Muhammeds wars and what not
    h e forgot to mention that all the war Muhammed saw fought save 1 or 2 were fought in Medinian soil
    ie the town that he lived. Ergo the army X came to attack, the muslims in medina fought back

    We do have a right to survive if some one tries to murder us take us as slave we have to fight to live and let our future gen to live
    and as such those wars are mentioned in the Quran
    Last edited by shaheer; August 04, 2011 at 05:06 AM.

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    Artists of MH 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shinsengumi's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    They think they are Islamic, I'll leave it to you and them to debate what's "Islamic" and what's a "perversion of Islam", as I certainly don't know Islam. I have heard from some Muslims or Koran scholars that actually the Terrorists are faithfully "preaching" Islam and the Koran in their deplorable acts, they're being "good" Muslims obeying/following the Koran, killing "infidels" (non-muslims). Though, this is obviously a debate between Muslims, to argue over/about. Christians have heinous lines in the Bible as well, and in the past they certainly done awful things (the Crusades and more), but now for the most part they aren't, but Muslims are, as the Terrorists say and think and beleive that they ARE MUSLIMS, that they are doing Allah's will/wishes, ?Allah ahkbar? (forgive my spelling - God is great!). Again this is for Muslims, Terroristic Muslims and Non-Terroristic Muslims, to debate within their societies. We, non-Muslims, have no idea which is the correct Islam, is it the Terroristic-Muslims Islam or is it the Non-terroristic Muslims Islam, which is the true Islam ? Is modern Islam a "Death Cult", or is it still peaceful like the original Islam, Dais-Islam (again forgive me, as I can't remember correctly what it's called/spelled as, argh-bad memory)

    there is nothing to argue over . Islam is so so so very perfectly clear about these kind of things .
    killing other people is the greatest of sins !
    saving other people is the greatest of deeds ! end of discussion !

    if someone claims that they are killing in the name of god or for the sake of islam or whatever ; it only naturally means that they have understood nothing and not a damn thing of what qur'an really says

    this is plain ignorance -which is the real enemy of humankind- nothing else nothing more .

    In all times and cultures there are similar examples ;

    You know THE CRUSADES dont you ? hundreds of thousands of chiristian soldiers united under the name of god !! but in fact they were just sad people whose beliefs were abused by others for their own selfish ends - ignorance of big masses made that happen ,its not christianity's fault

    Have you ever heard of Hashshāshīns ? the root of the word "assassin" , the army of Hassan-i Sabbah
    if fact , the evil genius who fooled a huge mass of people by the help of hashish that he was the messenger of god .(he made them unknowingly smoke it and people thought their hallucinations were the act of god) people obeyed his every word like it was the word of god and thus he created a literally fearless army - again ignorance made that happen , not islam


    and im sure you know of the all famous Ku Klux Klan dont you ? no need to go in depth .(i dont know very much anyway) all i know is they executed racist acts while carrying a cross on them
    ................

    the problem in middle east in this age isnt any different than these other examples . if only you knew how caotic the environment is over there ,you would immediately understand how people could become this delusional and violent ,unaware of the unrightfulness of what they are doing in the name of god . its the only point of view they could ever meet their entire life and so they became like this -again its plain ignorance

    even the phrase "muslim terrorist" is a contradiction all by itself . you cant be a true muslim and a terrorist at the same time and thats all there is to it

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  19. #57
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: The Stereotyping of Terrorism

    At least in practice, the word 'terrorism' is just a value judgement upon an action. Thats why it's near impossible to define what terrorism actually is as opposed to, say, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Dresden, or the actions of various 'respectable' revolutionaries.

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