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Thread: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

  1. #76
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member crimsonlink310's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    I think as secrets are revealed and revelations come to pass, Bleach will bounce back to the top. Meanwhile the naysayers and all the badmouthers will eat their words. At least thats what I believe it will come to pass in the end.

    I think one of the most frustrating things as a manga/anime fan to see is when someone in real life or online says to avoid a manga or anime just because they personally didn't like it.

    Bleach, Naruto, One Piece and a whole lot of others suffer from this. In fact one could say all things in life suffer from this at a one point or another. Whether its One Piece's art style, Kubo's plot or Naruto's characters and so on so forth.

    While its fine to say what you didn't like or hate about a certain series, the fact that people say you should never read or watch something is horrifying. Its bad enough manga and anime sales are going down in most places.

    Anyways with Bleach chapters focusing on the Shinigami captains, I expect rankings to go back up high again in the next few weeks.

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  3. #77
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonlink310 View Post
    Meanwhile the naysayers and all the badmouthers will eat their words. At least thats what I believe it will come to pass in the end.
    • Isn't that what most critizicing folks want anyway? To have some answers with which much of the critique would be gone. Spacing will stay the same no matter what, so that critique should be named once and never again.
    • How else do you recommend or not recommend something if not by your own opinion? It's the recommended persons responsibility to take it as truth or question it and try it for themself. I will say that no one sane should read Mass Effect: Deception[because it's shit³], it's your decision to believe me or not. edit: The recommendation has certainly to be founded on arguments.
    • Explain when and how One Piece's art style did suffer?

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    For example, the Sword of Shanarra is the worst book I have ever read in my life.
    Looking at the reviews, it must have been an agony to read it through. Actually started with DF last week, it better not be disappointing!

    devstauk: No need to go full off-topic.
    Last edited by Schabrak; June 26, 2012 at 06:47 PM.
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  5. #78
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    • Isn't that what most critizicing folks want anyway? To have some answers with which much of the critique would be gone. Spacing will stay the same no matter what, so that critique should be named once and never again.
    • How else do you recommend or not recommend something if not by your own opinion? It's the recommended persons responsibility to take it as truth or question it and try it for themself. I will say that no one sane should read Mass Effect: Deception[because it's shit³], it's your decision to believe me or not.
    • Explain when and how One Piece's art style did suffer?
    One Piece has very cluttered panels. It can be quite a turn off to some, like myself. I like the series in spite of that but that is something that can be bothersome.

    I think what crimsonlink310 was trying to say is that a lot of times people broaden their criticisms further than is fair. For example I don't like Shingeki no Kyojin, at all. The reason being that I think the character work is very very poor but I wouldn't tell someone to never under any circumstances read it. A lot of people find things to like in that series that I simply did not.

    People don't tend to treat Bleach, Naruto, or One Piece that way; it's either holy gospel or a steaming pile of crap.

    -------------------------------

    That being said I would say if someone genuinely does find something that seems to be absolute garbage with no redeeming value what so ever there is nothing wrong with saying so. For example, the Sword of Shanarra is the worst book I have ever read in my life. Nobody should ever read it or buy it or even look at the cover. It is a soulless plageristic piece of filth. Every copy should be burned as a service to mankind.(I am sorry Terry Brooks but you know it's true.)
    Last edited by Jammin; June 26, 2012 at 09:40 PM.
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  6. #79
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post

    That being said I would say if someone genuinely does find something that seems to be absolute garbage with no redeeming value what so ever there is nothing wrong with saying so. For example, the Sword of Shanarra is the worst book I have ever read in my life. Nobody should ever read it or buy it or even look at the cover. It is soulless plageristic piece of filth. Every copy should be burned as a service to mankind.(I am sorry Terry Brooks but you know it's true.)
    this now has me intrigued
    Spoiler show

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Curtarc's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post

    One Piece has very cluttered panels. It can be quite a turn off to some, like myself. I like the series in spite of that but that is something that can be bothersome.
    I've always wondered why I enjoyed Bleach more when watching the anime compared to the time I first read the manga. Maybe the cluttured panels influence me too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post

    That being said I would say if someone genuinely does find something that seems to be absolute garbage with no redeeming value what so ever there is nothing wrong with saying so. For example, the Sword of Shanarra is the worst book I have ever read in my life. Nobody should ever read it or buy it or even look at the cover. It is soulless plageristic piece of filth. Every copy should be burned as a service to mankind.(I am sorry Terry Brooks but you know it's true.)
    This reminds me of the time I went to the movies and watched "House of the Dead". Now, I am a very tolerant person, I am that kind of person that usually finds a good thing out of something the majority of people hated or called trash, I am very open minded but after watching this movie I felt an urge to destroy the entire cinema room, with passion.

  8. #81
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Curtarc View Post
    I've always wondered why I enjoyed Bleach more when watching the anime compared to the time I first read the manga. Maybe the cluttured panels influence me too.
    Could be. Manga in general tends towards dense panels.

    Only rare ones like Claymore actually go with a cleaner look. Bleach's best artistic feature works well with animation too though. That's when Kubo creates contrast with black and white. I think that's one of the under appreciated features of Bleach. It's beam battles use that black white contrast to wonderful effect. Animation, when done well, can add good sound effects, and background music to help elevate those moments even further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curtarc View Post
    This reminds me of the time I went to the movies and watched "House of the Dead". Now, I am a very tolerant person, I am that kind of person that usually finds a good thing out of something the majority of people hated or called trash, I am very open minded but after watching this movie I felt an urge to destroy the entire cinema room, with passion.
    I've seen it. And I feel that's a perfectly reasonable response to that movie; but read the first user review on Schabrak's link. I'm not nearly eloquent enough to express what the Sword of Shannara truly is but that Stephen guy managed it perfectly.

    ---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by devstauk View Post
    this now has me intrigued
    If you want to read it by all means do so. But your making a huge mistake, 700+ pages of pure agony.

    If you want a good fantasy book I can jump over to the Mangahelpers book thread post the names of a dozen, and even accounting for how much personal tastes differ, I promise you every one will be better than that book.(It's like promising something will taste better than Skunk rectum, so I feel pretty confident about it.)
    Last edited by Jammin; July 07, 2012 at 12:14 AM.
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  10. #82
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member crimsonlink310's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    • Isn't that what most critizicing folks want anyway? To have some answers with which much of the critique would be gone. Spacing will stay the same no matter what, so that critique should be named once and never again.
    • How else do you recommend or not recommend something if not by your own opinion? It's the recommended persons responsibility to take it as truth or question it and try it for themself. I will say that no one sane should read Mass Effect: Deception[because it's shit³], it's your decision to believe me or not. edit: The recommendation has certainly to be founded on arguments.
    • Explain when and how One Piece's art style did suffer?

    edit:

    Looking at the reviews, it must have been an agony to read it through. Actually started with DF last week, it better not be disappointing!

    devstauk: No need to go full off-topic.
    Yes after Bleach is over and done then the criticism should disappear for the most part. But not all critics are fair in their critiquing. Some just point out the bad in Bleach while other critics are biased for Bleach

    There is a clear difference between recommending Bleach and telling people to avoid it so "they aren't trolled/read a horrible manga" with no solid argument from the recommender about why Bleach should be avoided.

    A good recommendation adds both the pros and cons of a product and a solid argument for why you should buy/read/etc.

    Bleach manga series

    Fair and unbiased Summary:

    Pros: ____ ____ _____ _____

    Cons: _____ ___ ____ ____

    Bleach thread so I'll PM you about the One Piece art thing.

    I see where you are coming from but not critics of Bleach are fair in their analysis of it nor other series for that matter. Of course this is my personal opinion. People that are simply tired of Bleach or don't like it anymore, the choice is all up to them. I'm sure a number of them are in that situation going by the sales decrease a while back.

    BTW This week's TOC Bleach chapter should be the one where Ichigo starts the fight with Quilge so the ranking should be decent if not high.

    Off Topic: I find it sad that One Piece and Naruto are the only 2 series to break the million barrier in the 1st week of Volume sales going by Oricon. With a population like Japan's (128 million) you expect nearly all mangas to sell in the millions and the super popular ones to sell in the 5 millions considering if about 30% of Japanese people even read manga. I wish that all manga companies released worldwide sales every 6 months personally instead of depending on Oricon.

  11. #83
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    I don't know why people wouldn't like the Vandenreich. Kubo's had the history of the Quincy in this manga from the first arc, and it was not that hard to figure out that Kubo was going to make Quincy return in some way or at least go further in depth on their backstory. That should've been obvious at least when Ryuuken appeared.

    Also, the Vandenreich are good villains IMO. If we assume they want to avenge their clan then they have a more legitimate cause for fighting than the Hollows. They're also able to enslave Arrancar and are responsible for reintroducing them back into the plot. Not to mention they seem much more organized than Aizen's army, and they clearly have a better strategy. They've been in the manga for not even 20 chapters and they've already done a helluva alot more damage than the Arrancar ever did by themselves, and they even devised a way to counter Bankai. Aizen didn't really care about his Arrancar, he just used them as pawns really, and the closest thing to a strategy he enacted was Wonderweiss. Aizen wanted to become a god, the Arrancar followed him. With the Vandenreich, everyone seems to want the same thing, and aren't just simply minions. Plus, the mystery behind how there are so many Quincies left is intriguing, and I want to know the history between Yamamoto and the leader.

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  13. #84
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    I don't know why people wouldn't like the Vandenreich. Kubo's had the history of the Quincy in this manga from the first arc, and it was not that hard to figure out that Kubo was going to make Quincy return in some way or at least go further in depth on their backstory. That should've been obvious at least when Ryuuken appeared.

    Also, the Vandenreich are good villains IMO. If we assume they want to avenge their clan then they have a more legitimate cause for fighting than the Hollows. They're also able to enslave Arrancar and are responsible for reintroducing them back into the plot. Not to mention they seem much more organized than Aizen's army, and they clearly have a better strategy. They've been in the manga for not even 20 chapters and they've already done a helluva alot more damage than the Arrancar ever did by themselves, and they even devised a way to counter Bankai. Aizen didn't really care about his Arrancar, he just used them as pawns really, and the closest thing to a strategy he enacted was Wonderweiss. Aizen wanted to become a god, the Arrancar followed him. With the Vandenreich, everyone seems to want the same thing, and aren't just simply minions. Plus, the mystery behind how there are so many Quincies left is intriguing, and I want to know the history between Yamamoto and the leader.
    I don't like the Vandereich at all. It's not that I think they are surprising or in any way don't make sense (Aside from the fact that a large force of Quincy's was never even hinted at until now.)

    I don't like them stylistically. They are essentially wearing white motif military dress uniforms and they don't look good at all (bit like an angel themed marching band actually) and lacks that air of practicality the Shinigami and Hollow's had.

    I don't like them substantively. Bleach's greatest appeal to me has always been the age old Shinigami versus Hollow conflict. Quincy's aren't so much a part of that long conflict as a they are a footnote along it's history. Which makes it so they can't capitalize on the parts of Bleach I like. For example, Ichigo's mysterious origin, the supreme hollows stronger than any captain known as Vastro Lordes, and the many mysteries of the Shinigami that Aizen hinted at. They are just a new group of unsympathetic and stylistically challenged villains. So far I fear it's going to be the mistakes of the full-bringer arc all over again.

    So far the Vandereich are seeming like the kind of side story I would expect from a Bleach movie or video game. Which is obviously not something I like to see in Bleach's final arc.
    Last edited by Jammin; June 29, 2012 at 09:00 AM.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    I don't like the Vandereich at all. It's not that I think they are surprising or in any way don't make sense (Aside from the fact that a large force of Quincy's was never even hinted at until now.)

    I don't like them stylistically. They are essentially wearing white motif military dress uniforms and they don't look good at all which(bit like an angel themed marching band actually) and lacks that air of practicality the Shinigami and Hollow's had.

    I don't like them substantively. Bleach's greatest appeal to me has always been the age old Shinigami versus Hollow conflict. Quincy's aren't so much a part of that long conflict as a they are a footnote along it's history. Which makes it so they can't capitalize on the parts of Bleach I like. For example, Ichigo's mysterious origin, the supreme hollows stronger than any captain known as Vastro Lordes, and the many mysteries of the Shinigami that Aizen hinted at. They are just a new group of unsympathetic and stylistically challenged villains. So far I fear it's going to be the mistakes of the full-bringer arc all over again.

    So far the Vandereich are seeming like the kind of side story I would expect from a Bleach movie or video game. Which is obviously not something I like to see in Bleach's final arc.
    I dig the Vandenreichs look. I like the angel theme of it too, angels clashing with Shinigami is interesting to me. Also, most of the Espada were VLs. People got to get over this VL stuff already and move on. Hollows never were threatening enough to destroy SS or bring Shinigami to extinction. The fact that the Espada's could not outclass the Captains would make more Hollow enemies seem bland and something Kubo would do if he ran out of ideas. Unless he does what he has the Vandenreich do and enslave them. The secrets of SS and the Shinigami might have something to do with this conflict, not to mention this will probably lead to the Royal Guard being introduced. It doesn't feel like a video game story to me at all, feels pretty legit. Quincy and Shinigami have a good reason to fight each other, and I always thought there would come a day where Ishida might end up opposing Ichigo.

    Alot of the mistakes of the FB arc are almost impossible to make at this point too. First of all, most of the Fullbring Arc had no Shinigami, no Hollow, and Ichigo for the most part did not have his powers. We've got Arrancar again, Ichigo's got his powers, and tons of SS and Shinigami screentime. Also I doubt things will end with Kubo not explaining the purpose of the Vandenreich, I'm pretty sure the reason Kubo rushed through the ending of the FB arc was because it was so unpopular, due to the lack of shinigami til the end and no one caring about the new characters. The new characters aren't weak compared to the Shinigami either, unlike Xcution. The pacing was also very slow, and there wasn't alot of action or development. Thats some of the biggest flaws of the FB arc right there and the style of this arc contradicts it.

    Another Quincy vs Shinigami conflict just makes sense....it would be strange if Kubo never brought it up after introducing. If he never did, it would mean Kubo basically made Ishida a Quincy just for the hell of it. Not to mention Shinigami are finally dying, and SS is in legit trouble now. A video game or movie would never do the history behind the conflict justice.Plus Aizen is supposed to reappear. And we're supposed to see some new Bankais.

    For me, I haven't enjoyed Bleach this much since right before Ichigo went to HM to rescue Orihime. And IMO the Arrancar Saga was as good as the Soul Society Arc until they entered HM, but that's just my opinion. To each his own though.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    I have a theory, I'd like to read opinions about - not about the plot directly, nor the arts and stuff:

    Kubo-sensei made the Fullbringer arc bad on purpose - or at least he didn't pull it off as motivated as he started the Arrancar/Hueco Mundo arc with Grimmjowes attack - , so he could bring Bleach to the "final arc". Because - as we may conclude from Dragon Ball being prolonged with at least the Boo Saga - Jump tends to ... "encourage" its authors to make their popular serieses "a bit" longer, especially if they are the ones in charge for the magazine's success.

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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Obviously, for this "final arc", Ichigo must get his power back. That can't be done as "Ichi wakes up one morning and finds out he's a Shinigami". There had to be an arc where he got his power back. So no, IMO it was not forced prolonging, but a necessary part of the story.

    Personally, I wouldn't like Ichi's power to be his fullbring, but rather the same stuff as before (smaller modifications allowed). The whole lost agent topic (Ginjo as the former Shinigami substitute who found out SS was just trying to get rid of him) was plausible, too - we've been hinted at SS's former cruelty several times before, and it was good to show how much Ichi changed SS. The FB arc certianly has some good points.

    What I didn't like about the fullbring arc was lack of typical shounen-ish action and the fullbringers. At first I thought "oh great, at a new arc's beginning we have a new group like Vizards before" - I did like Vizards, they were a necessary addition to the story and Aizen's past, but I didn't want the manga to repeat itself, so I was kind of happier about them being villains. But I never understood what they were fighting for. Aizen was fighting for conquest (sort of), Quincies for revenge, Hollows are obvious, but these guys are just unsatisfied with their powers and the way they misused them so they fought Shinigami like psychos, and Ginjo hated SS. There's something missing there... it's more like a feeling, but I didn't like it that much (not that I decided Bleach is going bad just because of it).

    Everything has its ups and downs. There's no perfect manga, there are just kids who are fascinated by one (usually the most famous one, which in turn only becomes more famous) and consider the rest crap. I was lucky - I discovered manga pretty much alone and at first, I was reading for quantity, so I never adored any

    What we see here is that people still like Bleach. So it's been falling in rankings not because people don't like it, but because it has less maniacs , IMO.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Rikkaidai94's Avatar
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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    I think why is because they haven't gotten to the Aizen arc yet and probably because Ichigo does lose his soul reaper powers, but he does get them back which will most likely bring it back up in the ranks or something.
    *AkayaKiraharaIsAwesome*

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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Bleach simply as poor or no Character development and big plot holes...Kubo tite needs to spam Izanagi mostly in invasion of HM and forward.....He dragged that war too long and now Bleach's plot could have been taken far but it end here with the Sternritters...I just continue to read to see where bleach is gonna fall in all time manga.And i've spent so many years reading already...I just let Kubo do his thing and finish up idc about complaining anymore

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    Re: The reason Bleach has been falling in the rankings recently: a theory

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    I have a theory, I'd like to read opinions about - not about the plot directly, nor the arts and stuff:

    Kubo-sensei made the Fullbringer arc bad on purpose - or at least he didn't pull it off as motivated as he started the Arrancar/Hueco Mundo arc with Grimmjowes attack - , so he could bring Bleach to the "final arc". Because - as we may conclude from Dragon Ball being prolonged with at least the Boo Saga - Jump tends to ... "encourage" its authors to make their popular serieses "a bit" longer, especially if they are the ones in charge for the magazine's success.
    So.... the new coke verus the original coke theory.

    I don't think the FB arch was bad on purpose, I think that Kubo wanted to try something new. He's been working on bleach for a long time and every artist wants to try and go in new directions to keep art from going stale. Everything about it was too new in fact. He broke from his normal ranking of enemy by powers (captain/lieutenant. The espada actually having numbers) to a more loose idea of power that is completely dependent on the situation. Plus the powers being far more .... abstract and frankly not making a lot of sense. Then putting the main character in a spot in which his support network is cut away from him, including his power.

    That's why people hated it, because it wasn't Bleach. It felt like he was field testing a new manga that takes place in the bleach universe. But now, he's running back to basics. He kept a few good idea like a bigger air of mystery on motivations but more standard bleach characters and powers.

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