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Thread: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Similarities and Differences

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    Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Similarities and Differences

    This seems like one of the best places/sites to post this stuff (if you know better, tell me!).

    To start off, I've only just started on the manga and am up to book 7. I've seen the anime and loved it except for those godawful final episodes (ironic considering the Evangelion allusion). I'm only going to read the english published versions (chalk it up to something like being a bibliophile), so try not to spoil much for me if possible! I intend to do a thorough, heavy-note-taking reading of Claymore at some time, but here are some preliminary notes on my for fun read through, I want to know what you guys think and if you have any more to add.

    First off, Claymore is an incredibly well-done manga. There is so much happening under the plot, it's kind of nuts; themes, allusions, symbols, the works. So, for this thread, I say that Clare is Jesus. No, that's not right. She's an allusion to Jesus (though she gets closer and closer to the actual thing as time goes on). To be Jesus (rather, His allusion), you only need to have two or three of the following, but Clare has all of them.

    -She is in agony

    -She is self-sacrificing

    -She uses humble modes of transportation, i.e. walking

    -She is often portrayed with her arms out-stretched

    -She spends a ton of time alone, in the Wilderness (there is probably a specific event of this somewhere, complete with temptations and the like).

    -Being kind of crucified by the Yoma in the Cathedral before she is awakened. (This Yoma, pretending to be a mummy, can also represent death). An interesting side note, before awakening, Clare is baptized (even if it was only for show, it still happened) and thus purified.
    -She also slept for two days here, after receiving the crucifixion wounds, arising and awakening on the third.

    -She resurrects Lazarus/Jean

    -She is here to redeem an unworthy world (think of the bandits, think of Ophelia)

    -She is part of a (holy) trinity. Clare is herself (Jesus), Teresa (God), and Ilena (The Holy Spirit).

    Possible Jesus allusions:

    -She confronts the devil (I actually have no idea who the devil is in Claymore, I think it changes)

    -Something with a company of thieves. To meet this, she would have to keep company with sinners and redeem them. Generally, others give Jesus crap for hanging around thieves.

    -In these early volumes, Clare is often shown with people/townsfolk behind her where the other characters are not.

    -She is possibly good with children

    (She really almost has enough of these to literally be Jesus. I don't think she's 33, walks on water or is a carpenter though.)

    The question is, is Clare regular Christian Jesus, or is she Gnostic Jesus, such as Neo in The Matrix? Having Teresa, God, be female, and having an awakening rather than a resurrection points to Gnosticism, but I do not know enough about the religion to be certain. For most Jesus allusions, the character dies/resurrects and it is over. But for Clare and Neo, the majority of the story goes on after this. The resurrections serve as a coming to power.

    (A lot of these can be applied to all Claymores, it's important because it's Clare)

    tl;dr
    Clare is Jesus o.O

    Edit: I'll have a response after work, it's a beast! I'm going to re edit the checklist with some of your guys' reasons (like vengeance's hehe). Keep 'em coming! This is fun! I want you to tear into this as hard as possible!
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 15, 2011 at 08:25 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Complex

    there's lots of other sources that Clare can be compared to (which also share much with Christianity, as the things are universal seen in every story across human history/time and culltures/countries), but christianity is certainly one of them.

    --------

    while you do well to point out similarities with Christianity, Claymore really isn't matched up to Christianity if I may counter you.

    I'm not sure how I"m to do this though without spoiling, laughs...

    Claymore does have many european overtones... Yagi loves european artists and european stuff... especially France and its artistry... enjoy trying to find them, hehe (but there's some asian stuff too of course)

    --------------

    hopefully, this isn't too much spoilerage for you:

    The Humans in the manga probably consider the Claymores more as "Luficer" spawn... fallen angels, as the Claymores are half Yoma (Yoma = demon/monster).

    The anime at least does have images on their stained windows in Rabona (cathedral) with seemingly (if I remember correctly) men spearing angelic like men to death... this is quite mysterious...

    However, the manga has its own religions, and not Christianity: the "God of Rabona" religion, and the "Twin Goddesses of Love" religion/"cult", Goddess Teresa and Goddess Clare (not to be confused with Clare and Teresa).

    Yes, there's the "devil" in Claymore... a One Horned Demon... Priscilla, which you know about as you did watch the anime, so I'm not spoiling... Priscilla is much much much better done in the manga.... so much more evil, psycho, and powerful, *grins*

    on another site someone talks about something else that Claymore is very related to... I'll see if I can get her permission to quote her post(s) here.

    -----------------------

    as you seen the anime, you know that Jesus doesn't turn into a demon scorpian..., so Clare is more like Lucifer, as Claymores are again literally half demon (half Yoma).

    p.s.

    here's an amv for you:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRiiejmEk

    .
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; July 30, 2011 at 05:01 AM.
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    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Complex

    Clare also have bruses on her entire back like Jesus. Clare was beaten and tortured by a yoma while as captive, Jesus was beaten and tortured by Romens while as captive.

    Helen clearly represent the serpent from the Garden of Eden, constantly tempting people with evil apples. Her arm can also lash out and recoil like a serpent

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Vengeance's Avatar
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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Complex

    Edit: Clare is nothing like Jesus.

    1. She's a female while Jesus is a male.

    2. Clare chose to be a Claymore while Jesus was "born" the son of God.

    3. Clare is on a mission of revenge while Jesus was on a mission of salvation.

    4. Clare kills while Jesus doesn't.

    5. Clare uses what would be considered demonic power while Jesus used so called divine powers.
    Last edited by igotthegoods; August 02, 2011 at 12:32 PM.

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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Complex

    JohnGalt and others have gave some similiarities to Jesus, Clare is comparable and contrastable to Jesus, there's similarities and differences.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Complex

    Everyone is comparable to Jesus; last time I checked he was human too.

    Moderator message by: HegemonKhan
    There is both a Historical (scientific) Jesus (the man), and a Religious (Christian) Jesus (Christ, the son of God, who arose/resurrected from the dead and etc miracles/inhuman abilities/feats).

    As to which, both, or neither you want to believe in, that's up to you and each individual person, lol. Same thing for any Scientific and Religious/Faithful stuff. You have to decide what you believe in and/or what you don't believe in.

    Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 06, 2011 at 01:12 AM.

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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Similarities and Differences

    The only historical documentation of a Jesus simply mentioned that he was crucified. No actual historian that was alive during that time wrote about his exploits. The story of Jesus was written over 100 years after his death & is loosely based on the Egyptian god Horus.

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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Similarities and Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance View Post
    The only historical documentation of a Jesus simply mentioned that he was crucified. No actual historian that was alive during that time wrote about his exploits. The story of Jesus was written over 100 years after his death & is loosely based on the Egyptian god Horus.
    I'm wondering what this has to do with Clare.

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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Similarities and Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by ZERO PHOENIX View Post
    I'm wondering what this has to do with Clare.
    Responding to the green comment left by HegemonKhan on astrallite's post. It has to do with Jesus which is the secondary part of this topic. Since you know we're talking about how Clare is smiler to Jesus. My comparison between the two is how both are fictional characters. The story of Jesus is basically that of a comic book hero much like Clare who is a manga heroine. So you see there was relevance to my post in regards to the actual topic.
    Last edited by Vengeance; August 08, 2011 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Similarities and Differences

    Moderator message by: Hegemon
    this stuff is fine to talk about, just don't take it too far, as it'll get way off-topic, try to keep the discussion about the comparison/constrast'ion between Clare and Jesus, but a little and *LIMITED* discussion ("establishment") of Jesus (and/or of Clare) is fine as long as it remains relevant to helping to discuss the topic (which is, again, compare and constrast), and, again, as long as it doesn't go to far as its own discussion, as it would become quite off-topic.

    Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 08, 2011 at 04:44 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member wickedsmile's Avatar
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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Similarities and Differences

    The OP asserted that Yagi most likely modeled Clare after Jesus Christ. As such, Clare's character and the events of her life mirror those of Jesus Christ. I'm not sure I would agree with those assertions. We can all draw comparisons to the person in questions.

    However, to make those inferences, you need more than "individual" similarities. Having lost someone, seeking revenge and persevering through adversity simply is not sufficient. In that regard, I agree with Vengeance's opinion on the matter.

    As to the accuracy of the historical evens surrounding Jesus Christ, and whether he existed, that discussion does not belong in this thread. That's a historical and theological discussion, which can generate a great deal of emotion. All of us will learn the truth in the end. Until then, I'll keep reading this wonderful manga.
    I don't want to die. Even if that makeshift family was all nothing more than an illusion, doomed to someday fall apart. I so wish, so wish, it could have lasted the tiniest bit longer. - Norihiro Yagi

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    Thumbs Down Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Similarities and Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsmile View Post
    The OP asserted that Yagi most likely modeled Clare after Jesus Christ. As such, Clare's character and the events of her life mirror those of Jesus Christ. I'm not sure I would agree with those assertions. We can all draw comparisons to the person in questions.
    I don't agree with those assertions either which is why I found this discussion highly dubious from the outset. I've been quiet long enough but I think it's time to inject logic into this discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGalt View Post
    There is so much happening under the plot, it's kind of nuts; themes, allusions, symbols, the works. So, for this thread, I say that Clare is Jesus. No, that's not right. She's an allusion to Jesus (though she gets closer and closer to the actual thing as time goes on). To be Jesus (rather, His allusion), you only need to have two or three of the following, but Clare has all of them.

    -She is in agony

    -She is self-sacrificing

    -She uses humble modes of transportation, i.e. walking

    -She is often portrayed with her arms out-stretched

    -She spends a ton of time alone, in the Wilderness (there is probably a specific event of this somewhere, complete with temptations and the like).

    -Being kind of crucified by the Yoma in the Cathedral before she is awakened. (This Yoma, pretending to be a mummy, can also represent death). An interesting side note, before awakening, Clare is baptized (even if it was only for show, it still happened) and thus purified.
    -She also slept for two days here, after receiving the crucifixion wounds, arising and awakening on the third.

    -She resurrects Lazarus/Jean

    -She is here to redeem an unworthy world (think of the bandits, think of Ophelia)

    -She is part of a (holy) trinity. Clare is herself (Jesus), Teresa (God), and Ilena (The Holy Spirit).

    Possible Jesus allusions:

    -She confronts the devil (I actually have no idea who the devil is in Claymore, I think it changes)

    -Something with a company of thieves. To meet this, she would have to keep company with sinners and redeem them. Generally, others give Jesus crap for hanging around thieves.

    -In these early volumes, Clare is often shown with people/townsfolk behind her where the other characters are not.

    -She is possibly good with children

    (She really almost has enough of these to literally be Jesus. I don't think she's 33, walks on water or is a carpenter though.)

    How is Clare in agony outside of battle? True Clare is self-sacrificing but there are also thousands of other characters who are as well. Are all of them similar to Jesus just because of that? Clare using humble modes of transportation is highly absurd. How else do they get around in Claymore? They don't have cars. She doesn't walk because she's humble she walks because it's the only way to get around with the technological limitations of the world she lives in. I've only seen one or two instances in which Clair is portrayed as having her arms stretched out. Last time I checked people do that all the time. Doesn't mean every John and Sue is Jesus. She spends a lot of time alone because until recently she hasn't had anyone to travel with. Assuming you are reading this manga you are aware that people regard Claymore as monsters. A typical human doesn't want to be around a Claymore. Add on the fact that Clare is borderline anti-social and I wouldn't expect her to travel with a gang of merry men or women.

    Clare sleeping for two days after being gravely injured is hardly Christlike. How you see similarities is beyond me. It's a common cliche in manga and anime for characters who have been gravely injured to sleep for days. It's a general way to force progression for the convenience of the writer. She didn't resurrect Jean because Jean was never dead. She merely controlled her Yoki and forced her out of her awakened state. Galatea is capable of doing the same and almost had to do it with Clare. I guess that makes Galatea Christlike to you as well. How in the world do you think Clare is here to redeem the unworthy? I mean where do you come up with this? Claymore follows Clare's story of revenge against the monster who took everything away from her. That's the Claymore we're all reading. I don't even remember her running into bandits let alone trying to "redeem" them.

    How you made the connection between the Trinity, Clare, Teresa, and Irene is really just grandiose imaginative speculation. You assume that Clare is good with children, which you somehow think makes her Christlike. Given that Galatea works as a nun and is great with kids even the most outlandish logic would point towards her being the more Christlike of the two. Raki is good with kids too. He must be Jesus. Because we all know that if you're self-sacrificing, if you are good with kids, if you stretch your arms, and if you can walk you must be Jesus.

    The only thing that surprises me more than the fact that this discussion is still going on are the number of people who approved. Ladies and gentlemen, I implore you a little logic goes a long way. Even if we ignore the myriad of religious plotholes with this topic, anyone with even a passing interest in Claymore should be able to see the numerous logical fallacies in the opening.
    Last edited by ZERO PHOENIX; August 18, 2011 at 03:50 PM.

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    Re: Looking Beyond the Plot- Clare's Jesus Complex

    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance View Post
    5. Clare uses what would be considered demonic power while Jesus used so called divine powers.
    Or more to the point, Teresa gains her strength from embracing her yoma nature instead of fighting against it and hating yoma. The philosophical themes in Claymore are from Nietzsche, not from the bible.

    ---------- Post added at 03:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGalt View Post
    First off, Claymore is an incredibly well-done manga. There is so much happening under the plot, it's kind of nuts; themes, allusions, symbols, the works. So, for this thread, I say that Clare is Jesus. No, that's not right. She's an allusion to Jesus (though she gets closer and closer to the actual thing as time goes on). To be Jesus (rather, His allusion), you only need to have two or three of the following, but Clare has all of them.
    Is this from the DSM-IV or the ICD-10 by any chance? lol...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGalt
    -She is in agony

    -She is self-sacrificing
    Well we should all admit that she's risk-taking in that regard. Would she take a bullet for someone else? No, the virtuous role model in Claymore is Teresa the Nietzschean ubermensch, who operates with noblesse oblige but is certainly not altruistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGalt
    -She uses humble modes of transportation, i.e. walking
    No offence, but I walk to places and I'm often in agony because I'm ill. Does this mean that I am the LORD? I do meet at least two of your criteria don't I?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGalt
    Possible Jesus allusions:

    -She confronts the devil (I actually have no idea who the devil is in Claymore, I think it changes)
    The most obvious theme in Claymore is that there are no monsters because there are no good or evil phenomena, only peoples interpretations of phenomena, including people and organisations. So no, there's no 'devil' in the Claymore-verse. Instead of comparing Clare to Christ, you might try comparing her to Priscilla lol. Because unless you do compare the two of them, you're missing the entire point, because they have very similar personalities but one of them is the protagonist and the other one is the adversary.

    "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." - Freidrich Nietzsche

    ---------- Post added at 03:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ZERO PHOENIX View Post
    Add on the fact that Clare is borderline anti-social and I wouldn't expect her to travel with a gang of merry men or women.
    Yep, just like Teresa, Clare is diagnosable with Antisocial Personality Disorder.


    A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:

    1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
    2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
    3. impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
    4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
    5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
    6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
    7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;



    Quote Originally Posted by ZP
    How in the world do you think Clare is here to redeem the unworthy? I mean where do you come up with this? Claymore follows Clare's story of revenge against the monster who took everything away from her. That's the Claymore we're all reading. I don't even remember her running into bandits let alone trying to "redeem" them.
    I agree, in fact it seems pretty obvious to me that Clare lives for herself and the very few people who she has emotional connections to (Teresa, Raki and Jean). She's preoccupied by her bondng instincts towards Raki, and by a desire for revenge against Priscilla in a way that surely counts as a 'lack of realistic long term goals' when you consider Priscilla's power.

    ---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    JohnGalt and others have gave some similiarities to Jesus, Clare is comparable and contrastable to Jesus, there's similarities and differences.
    But there arenot very many similarities. Have you walked anywhere today, HK?

    ---------- Post added at 04:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance View Post
    The story of Jesus was written over 100 years after his death & is loosely based on the Egyptian god Horus.
    You mean Osiris, not Horus.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 31, 2011 at 02:42 AM.

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