Enel vs Kizaru

[ErosVp]

I don't really have any ideas, but these guys must stop being lazy and search try to know the forums better lol! Tree of Knowledge has a good number of visitors, but others sub-forums....

There are lots of good threads in Davy Back guys! Go there to discuss (speculate) others who would win fictious bouts between various characters! One Piece Playground is good too...

[Anduren]

As for ideas on how to get more people to check sub forums, there's a *NOW* Recommended Threads - as of 21st Jun 2011" sticky thread that can be updated often to direct people to different fields based on interest .

As for the actual Enel vs. Kizaru fight, I wonder if Enel can outdo Kizaru on CoO since his electricity gives him a huge boost to the mantra range. If he can El Thor Kizaru from a distance where Kizaru cant even sense his presence from, then he can snatch a clear victory.

[hyper_megaman]

I think Enel is stronger than everyone's giving credit to him for, the only reason he lost to Luffy was because of the natural weakness thing, it was as if Luffy was using CoA on him. Just because he met his natural nemesis (in an earlier arc where Luffy was weaker) doesn't mean that his actual fighting strength was low. No one else on that island could come close to touching him

and kizaru's much stronger than you're giving him credit for


the guy knows haki, and could hit logias, while there is no evidence suggesting enel is capable of the same

kizaru moves faster without depending on anys pecific environment advantages, and has the capability to hit logias, and also as an admiral should know rokushiki (bring the fight to the middle of the ocean much?)

enel is powerful, no doubt about it, but kizaru is crazier. no one's saying enel is weak. kizaru's just far more powerful

---------- Post added at 03:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 AM ----------

As for ideas on how to get more people to check sub forums, there's a *NOW* Recommended Threads - as of 21st Jun 2011" sticky thread that can be updated often to direct people to different fields based on interest .

As for the actual Enel vs. Kizaru fight, I wonder if Enel can outdo Kizaru on CoO since his electricity gives him a huge boost to the mantra range. If he can El Thor Kizaru from a distance where Kizaru cant even sense his presence from, then he can snatch a clear victory.

there's the huge question, that if COO helps if the attacker moves faster than you can react

much like spiderman vs the flash. spiderman could sense danger, but the flash could basically walk up to him while munching on a drumstick, looking at the guy who's basically just still as a statue.


oda mentioned lucci was capable of taking down enel iirc, that it would be a long fight but he'd win in the end. i think it's safe to assume as admirals their basic physical abilities are comparable or higher than that, before you even take into account their logia powers

[Anduren]

there's the huge question, that if COO helps if the attacker moves faster than you can react

much like spiderman vs the flash. spiderman could sense danger, but the flash could basically walk up to him while munching on a drumstick, looking at the guy who's basically just still as a statue.

CoO/mantra isn't exactly a danger sense. "Color of Observation: Haki", I believe, is an enhancement to observation i.e. perception that comes from the haki (or willpower/determination/conviction etc.) of the person that allows him/her to predict the mental state of the target(s). It's used mostly to predict what a person is thinking. We've seen it used as a radar by Enel to count how many people are still on Skypea as well as by Rayleigh to measure how many creatures on the island he trained Luffy on were stronger than Luffy, as well as where those creatures were. We also saw that Gan Fall had his house at a place far enough away from the Vearth that he was outside of Enel's mantra range to detect. We also saw that if the person being read using CoO were not thinking anything, then that person's actions cannot be predicted (Gomu Gomu no Baka: Chapter 281, page 13 & 14 and Gomu Gomu no Octopus Rampage: page 15 & 16 same chapter). CoO isn't like Sharingan or Byakugan in Naruto where you can see everything around you and predict what's going to happen. It can only predict living things by what's on their minds.

That said, the point I was making was that as Enel said in Chapter 278, page 2, his devil fruit gives him a bonus/enhancement that allows him to use CoO at an extended range that allows him to pinpoint anyone within his mantra range and use "God's Judgement" i.e. El Thor on them. This is an ability only he has because of the relationship between his use of devil fruit and his use of mantra (something Kizaru cannot do). If Enel is outside of Kizaru's CoO range, he cannot "see" Enel's attack no matter how fast he is. The only counter-argument I can think of right now for this is just to say that El Thor takes a while to charge up and Kizaru can easily turn elemental when he sees the beam of light forming over him . But if Kizaru doesn't physically see the attacks coming and prepare for them, Enel can attack him from outside of his CoO range and keep avoiding Kizaru because Kizaru will not know where Enel is attacking from.

oda mentioned lucci was capable of taking down enel iirc, that it would be a long fight but he'd win in the end. i think it's safe to assume as admirals their basic physical abilities are comparable or higher than that, before you even take into account their logia powers

That would be an interesting match up to see and I'm curious how Oda would play out such a battle since soru isn't exactly as fast as electricity and Lucci hasn't shown any signs of CoA haki. Anyways, it'd be nice if you could give some reference just for verification .

[Wisshard]

Enel has powerful and fast attacks to be sure: even the Monster Trio at Skypedia was unable to evade his strongest attacks. His basic combat abilities (reaction speed, physical strength, physical speed, endurance, durability, martial skill etc.) however, are not so impressive. Hence, judging from what we've seen, Kizaru would literally have no difficulty whatsoever with Enel: the lightning man would so loose horribly that he would be knocked out/killed before he even realized that the fight had started.

Note that Enel can't use CoA , and thus can't harm Kizaru in the first place, though it's not like it matters...

[kkck]

Enel had reasonable mastery over his fruit and moderate physical capacities however what made him dangerous was the specific abilities of his fruit. Electricity is something in itself difficult to deal with mostly due to it being a logia. There necessarily wasn't a difference in skill between enel and the monster trio, it was just that at their current level neither zoro or sanji had it in them to go up against a logia. Luffy in turn could handle the intangibility hence why he could go up against enel. In that regard, kizaru should have no more dificulty with enel than what he did against the strawhats or the supernova as his mastery of his fruit and haki appear to be greater than enel's to say the least. Enel has a hell of a fruit but against an admiral he would be as much of fodder as luffy or the other supernova were. Well, perhaps enel might be more capable of random destruction but that is about it.

[mattiaildivino]

kizaru is faster,and he is surely stronger!

[hyper_megaman]

CoO/mantra isn't exactly a danger sense. "Color of Observation: Haki", I believe, is an enhancement to observation i.e. perception that comes from the haki (or willpower/determination/conviction etc.) of the person that allows him/her to predict the mental state of the target(s). It's used mostly to predict what a person is thinking. We've seen it used as a radar by Enel to count how many people are still on Skypea as well as by Rayleigh to measure how many creatures on the island he trained Luffy on were stronger than Luffy, as well as where those creatures were. We also saw that Gan Fall had his house at a place far enough away from the Vearth that he was outside of Enel's mantra range to detect. We also saw that if the person being read using CoO were not thinking anything, then that person's actions cannot be predicted (Gomu Gomu no Baka: Chapter 281, page 13 & 14 and Gomu Gomu no Octopus Rampage: page 15 & 16 same chapter). CoO isn't like Sharingan or Byakugan in Naruto where you can see everything around you and predict what's going to happen. It can only predict living things by what's on their minds.

That said, the point I was making was that as Enel said in Chapter 278, page 2, his devil fruit gives him a bonus/enhancement that allows him to use CoO at an extended range that allows him to pinpoint anyone within his mantra range and use "God's Judgement" i.e. El Thor on them. This is an ability only he has because of the relationship between his use of devil fruit and his use of mantra (something Kizaru cannot do). If Enel is outside of Kizaru's CoO range, he cannot "see" Enel's attack no matter how fast he is. The only counter-argument I can think of right now for this is just to say that El Thor takes a while to charge up and Kizaru can easily turn elemental when he sees the beam of light forming over him . But if Kizaru doesn't physically see the attacks coming and prepare for them, Enel can attack him from outside of his CoO range and keep avoiding Kizaru because Kizaru will not know where Enel is attacking from.



That would be an interesting match up to see and I'm curious how Oda would play out such a battle since soru isn't exactly as fast as electricity and Lucci hasn't shown any signs of CoA haki. Anyways, it'd be nice if you could give some reference just for verification .

yea i never said it was a danger sense. I just compared it with spiderman, and now that i think about it, the sharingan

being able to see it/perceive it does not guarantee success in dodging. those are two different elements


also, lucci is capable of soru and geppou and a combination of both, given they both approach the fight in full knowledge of each other's powers i highly doubt enel would be able to hit lucci dashing around. this is contentious though, given the capability of enel's AOE, but from what i've seen even his widest AOEs are just limited to single specific hits/bolts that have to hit the target.

now carry that over to kizaru and it's likely kizaru, if he were trying to fight enel seriously, would use soru a lot combined with his light powers (assuming admirals are all masters of rokushiki). and as logias, they're both intangible to hits unless supported with haki, and kizaru is the only guy with COA haki here

your hypothetical situation of enel staying out of range would be moot, as even if out of range, kizaru could just phase out and stay in light mode and be immune to attacks, while firing laser beams i assume could be endowed with haki


in the long run, kizaru would win imho, just from assuming electricity can't affect light


p.s. i can't seem to find the enel v lucci fight thing on google though. think i remembered wrongly.

---------- Post added at 11:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------

Enel had reasonable mastery over his fruit and moderate physical capacities however what made him dangerous was the specific abilities of his fruit. Electricity is something in itself difficult to deal with mostly due to it being a logia. There necessarily wasn't a difference in skill between enel and the monster trio, it was just that at their current level neither zoro or sanji had it in them to go up against a logia. Luffy in turn could handle the intangibility hence why he could go up against enel. In that regard, kizaru should have no more dificulty with enel than what he did against the strawhats or the supernova as his mastery of his fruit and haki appear to be greater than enel's to say the least. Enel has a hell of a fruit but against an admiral he would be as much of fodder as luffy or the other supernova were. Well, perhaps enel might be more capable of random destruction but that is about it.

agreed

even if enel goes on a destructive rampage, all he would do is destroy his own footing, and kizaru knows geppou and could probably not even care about whether there's ground to stand on

rokushiki covers up a lot of dependency weaknesses, and coupled with kizaru's logia intangibility, and seeing as kizaru is the only person of the two logias to even know coa haki, i don't see how enel could win.

physically enel was athletic at best. kizaru is very likely superhuman

[Kyodai Senkan Mora]

I am convinced that most people on this thread are really underestimating Enel's devil's fruit.The goro goro no mi is one of the strongest devil's fruit.period. Even Robin commented on its reputation of being Invincible.The Fruit very likely naturally superior to Kizaru's pika pika no mi and this would give Enel a huge advantage over Kizaru in addition to his superior(implied) COO(mantra) skills.Really the only major advantage Kizaru has is COA and I should note here Luffy defeated the Boa sisters without Haki despite the fact that they are about the strongest Kuja(after Hancock) when they themselves were using COA.COA is not the magic bullet evryone is making it out to be.Sure it's useful but like everything else it can be beaten

[Wisshard]

When Robin commented that Goro fruit was one of those fruits who were reputed to be invincible, I'm pretty sure that she were referring to logia fruits. Besides, I don't think anyone is underestimating the immense power of the Goro fruit (I personally consider it the best ability), but an hax ability can only take you so far. Kizaru is simply miles and miles above Enel: the lightning man wouldn't even be able to register Kizaru's movements, let alone be able to put up a fight against Kizaru's top tier combat ability.

^Not that it would have any impact on this match-up, but why would the Goro fruit hold an inherent superiority over the Pika fruit?

[hyper_megaman]

I am convinced that most people on this thread are really underestimating Enel's devil's fruit.The goro goro no mi is one of the strongest devil's fruit.period. Even Robin commented on its reputation of being Invincible.The Fruit very likely naturally superior to Kizaru's pika pika no mi and this would give Enel a huge advantage over Kizaru in addition to his superior(implied) COO(mantra) skills.Really the only major advantage Kizaru has is COA and I should note here Luffy defeated the Boa sisters without Haki despite the fact that they are about the strongest Kuja(after Hancock) when they themselves were using COA.COA is not the magic bullet evryone is making it out to be.Sure it's useful but like everything else it can be beaten

yea but these are logias we're talking about

luffy couldn't even scratch the logias without using haki, if we ignore natural weaknesses

using the snake sisters as a comparison is totally devoid of logic, as the main point now is 2 logias fighting each other

enel couldn't hurt kizaru, kizaru would be able to hurt enel. from this point alone, without discussing anything else, it's pretty obvious kizaru takes it

[Anduren]

your hypothetical situation of enel staying out of range would be moot, as even if out of range, kizaru could just phase out and stay in light mode and be immune to attacks, while firing laser beams i assume could be endowed with haki


in the long run, kizaru would win imho, just from assuming electricity can't affect light

Yeah... the hypothetical situation was an extremely long range battle case where it wouldn't go anywhere except be a draw just like you said assuming they both had their guard up ready for battle. In a short range battle case, Enel would be knocked out before he can turn his head just like Wisshard said. But like in every One Piece battle situation, the surroundings and situation of the battle can determine the winner. For example, even though light is faster than electricity, it can only travel in a straight line and bounce off of reflective surfaces, whereas electricity can travel along any conducting surface (depending on surface electrical resistance).

We also can't discount Kizaru being able to use Rokushiki even though we haven't once seen him use it, because vice admirals have been seen using it. I'm also a bit curious about the capacity of Kizaru to use CoA haki because, even though he was seen using (most probably) CoA haki with the other two admirals guarding against whitebeard's ability on the iron wall, we haven't once seen him using it to the extent of Aokiji or Akainu in actual combat. I may be forgetting some scenes from the war so correct me if I'm wrong but the way I remember, his attacks weren't often, if ever, reinforced with CoA haki (like vs. Marco). According to what Coby said in chater 594, page 6, and what Rayleigh said chapter 597, page 16, it's hard to guess which type of haki Kizaru specializes in because as his name (yellow monkey) implies, he's yet to take a battle seriously or use his full potential (Rokushiki or haki). All we know is that he's supposed to be able to use both of them to some proficiency even though we haven't seen him use them.

What we can be sure of is that Enel is not able to use CoA haki at all which means there's no way he can damage Kizaru because his element of electricity doesn't have a suppressive relationship with the element of light.

About the goro goro fruit being one of the most powerful abilities, the reason it was compared to godly power is because historically, lightning has been associated with gods (Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, etc) A good example of this is how Enel used names of gods from different regions of the world as his attacks. This doesn't necessarily mean that as an element it's greater than other elements specifically. Like I said earlier, electricity vs light is similar to flame vs smoke (Ace vs Smoker battle in Arabasta) which is a draw in terms of elements leaving out haki.

[Kyodai Senkan Mora]

yea but these are logias we're talking about

luffy couldn't even scratch the logias without using haki, if we ignore natural weaknesses

using the snake sisters as a comparison is totally devoid of logic, as the main point now is 2 logias fighting each other

enel couldn't hurt kizaru, kizaru would be able to hurt enel. from this point alone, without discussing anything else, it's pretty obvious kizaru takes it

If we ignore natural weaknesses?.....well sir, when i posted that I DID NOT ignore natural weaknesses hence voila! logic!!! A natural weakness trumps the logia defence(Ace,Crocodile,Enel)...leaving only COA and natural fighting skills....and COA can be beaten(Boa sisters) hence the logic in the post

---------- Post added at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------

a bolt of lightning can travel at speeds of 220,000 km/h (140,000 mph)(admittedly slower than light but much faster than oh..say rayleigh who managed to hold kizaru in a fight with no DF/p.s if we assume COO helped him keep up then Enel should as well seeing as he had monstrous COO capabilities in conjunction with his DF), and can reach temperatures approaching 30,000 °C (54,000 °F)[compare to surface of the sun(6000°C) or magma(1000-1500°C)-----very relevant as Enel had heating attacks like "Kaminari Yakin Gurōmu Padoringu"] and can strike 10 miles away from a thunderstorm(Remember "Kami no Sabaki El Thor"),produces anywhere from 100mil to a billion volts of elec. and has billions of watts......oh by the way am making a case for superiority here if anybody is wondering....Really Enel may or may not win this,but he is not the underdog most of you are making him out to be!!!

[hyper_megaman]

If we ignore natural weaknesses?.....well sir, when i posted that I DID NOT ignore natural weaknesses hence voila! logic!!! A natural weakness trumps the logia defence(Ace,Crocodile,Enel)...leaving only COA and natural fighting skills....and COA can be beaten(Boa sisters) hence the logic in the post

---------- Post added at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------

a bolt of lightning can travel at speeds of 220,000 km/h (140,000 mph)(admittedly slower than light but much faster than oh..say rayleigh who managed to hold kizaru in a fight with no DF/p.s if we assume COO helped him keep up then Enel should as well seeing as he had monstrous COO capabilities in conjunction with his DF), and can reach temperatures approaching 30,000 °C (54,000 °F)[compare to surface of the sun(6000°C) or magma(1000-1500°C)-----very relevant as Enel had heating attacks like "Kaminari Yakin Gurōmu Padoringu"] and can strike 10 miles away from a thunderstorm(Remember "Kami no Sabaki El Thor"),produces anywhere from 100mil to a billion volts of elec. and has billions of watts......oh by the way am making a case for superiority here if anybody is wondering....Really Enel may or may not win this,but he is not the underdog most of you are making him out to be!!!

and there is no evidence kizaru has any natural weakness, and even if he does that enel has access to it at all


underdog is a relative term. whitebeard vs roger, whitebeard would be the underdog. it does not in any way imply whitebeard is weak

enel vs kizaru, enel IS the underdog, like it or not. it's indisputable with the facts we've seen for now, not without conclusive evidence of kizaru having an actual elemental weakness enel can exploit easily

[kulugo]

what if, let's say enel trained for 2 years. reaching same status, power, haki with kizaru.
so basically they're even in terms of haki, fighting ability, physical strength, what else..
the only battle would be between their devil fruits. who would win?