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Thread: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Revolation's Avatar
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    Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    Spoiler show


    Disclaimer: This is a thread with questions, so excuse me if I seem a little ignorant to something that may seem like basic knowledge.

    Spoiler: My long ramble about my confusion with Ichigo show


    ^-----Longest ramble/stream of consciousness I ever did. But it had been bubbling up inside me for the longest, that I had to just get it all out.

    Edited as of: Dec 25, 2011 9:31 EST
    Minor edits as of Dec 25, 2012 6:00 PM EST
    Last edited by Revolation; December 25, 2012 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Adding more questions, explaining myself more, clarity issues
    Bleach 354-356 spoiler and chapter discussions. Most hilarious ones ever. How hueco mundo and The Lust arc killed "ichihime"
    Spoiler: What happened with Nel and Kenpachi after Ichigo went to Ulqiorra(vol 39 sketches) show

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    Here's how I see this entire shtick, but one thing should be remembered first...Zangetsu and Shirosaki were always one and the same...the different sides of the same coin...

    So....

    Ichigo in SS...he is growing steadily, along with Zangetsu and Shirosaki...then he forces out bankai, is on the verge of death, his spiritual body cannot deal with the power...Shirosaki takes over...however Ichigo is still in there, that's why despite being a low level transformation, there is intellect, not just a mindless hollow...so in that sense, that form is more visored form...

    When there are negative emotions, the hollow comes out more easily, as we've seen in his first encounter with Arrancars...he is a whiny idiot and gets his ass kicked....

    Then comes the training with Shinji and co....he is knocked out so the mindless hollow form gets out...but it's still a lower level hollow though...at least lower than Ichigonator...the trick to defeating Shirosaki is to accept the negative emotions as your own and face them...Ichigo did that so Shirosaki went into submission

    Ichigo continues his training...he strenghtens himself, thus his inner spirit as well(Zangetsu x Shiro)...but as a clumsy idiot as he is, he cannot maintain balance, and he loses control...if you follow Naruto or followed it, you will see similarities with the tree climbing exercise...

    So what happens against Ulquiorra? Ichigonator comes out...but let's not forget...Ichigo was training himself and he got stronger, more immersed in his ability with every fight...so when he loses control(he actually dies), the ultimate form of his hollow power comes out...why can we hear it speak? Because Ichigo's hollow aka Shirosaki is a product of Ichigo's rage, despair, all the negative feelings that stand as a definition for Hollows in general...the despair of not being able to do shit to protect with the help of Ulq's Cero forces Shirosaki out...

    So...the Hollow shows his powerup, but Ichigo is not in control...no wonder that against Yammy he doesn't know shit, and can't control the new mask properly...that's because the development was not steady...just like the bankai training, the last powerup was forced out...not even mentioning his lack of reiatsu at that point...

    But then comes Dangai training...Ichigo faces his despair(Shirosaki), his desire the protect(Zangetsu) and then his despair born from that desire (the fused being)....the symbolic is that Ichigo needs once again to face his fears and desires and set himself straight...and once again, he let's himself to be stabbed, so acceptance is there, thus he becomes one with his powers...
    The "material" part is that the fused thing Tensa Zangetsu+Shirosaki is in perfect balance and Ichigo accepting it, manages to take that balance as well and maintain it...Tensa Zangetsu + Shirosaki is already a new entity, and thus Ichigo surpasses even Aizen...Aizen forced his way and cheated his way towards that final form...

    Now the answer to your question....there is no mask...so post Dangai Ichigo cannot put on the mask, becuz there's none...imagine post Dangai Ichigo like this...he is the perfect Arrancar...his base form is the ultimate shikai...shikai means that he has cooperation of his inner spirit and we can see that Ichigo fused with the sword...but the sword's form is in the old bankai form, which is the compressed form of sword...so the base form is the base form of an Arrancar, who has his power sealed in his sword...

    The second form is the ultimate bankai and ressureccion...bankai because he calls out his spirit into the real world, and ressurreccion, because he becomes that power...

    So ultimate Arrancar, we can even say that a new being, if we consider Arrancars low level beings and not capable of further evolution...but ultimate Arrancar for me, therefore no mask at all...

    I hope I was coherent enough...I just woke up...questions are welcome as I don't think I answered all the stuff you brought to table...

    ---------- Post added at 05:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 AM ----------

    PS: why isn't Visored hollow and Ichigonator the same...because Shirosaki evolved and got stronger as Ichigo was advancing in battles and advancing his Arrancar powers
    Last edited by benelori; December 25, 2011 at 10:07 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Revolation's Avatar
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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    Spoiler show
    Not answering all the stuff I brought to the table? That's fine. I asked like hundreds of questions, so it's fine.

    Mugetsu analogous to a ressureccion? Never thought about it like that. I always understand things better with analogies.

    But you're saying Tensa-Shiro could only be in that fused form if Ichigo accepted everything? Still wondering why they never had that form in shikai. Oh wait, because Ichigo was in bankai so much and barely went in his inner world anyway.

    If I was a shinigami, I'd basically live in my inner world. "Life sucks right now? Goin' in my inner world to cut some stuff up, and chill,".
    Last edited by Revolation; December 25, 2011 at 10:46 PM.
    Bleach 354-356 spoiler and chapter discussions. Most hilarious ones ever. How hueco mundo and The Lust arc killed "ichihime"
    Spoiler: What happened with Nel and Kenpachi after Ichigo went to Ulqiorra(vol 39 sketches) show

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolation View Post
    Not answering all the stuff I brought to the table? That's fine. I asked like hundreds of questions, so it's fine.

    Mugetsu analogous to a ressureccion? Never thought about it like that. I always understand things better with analogies.

    But you're saying Tensa-Shiro could only be in that fused form if Ichigo accepted everything? Still wondering why they never had that form in shikai. Oh wait, because Ichigo was in bankai so much and barely went in his inner world anyway.

    If I was a shinigami, I'd basically live in my inner world. "Life sucks right now? Goin' in my inner world to cut some stuff up, and chill,".
    Tensa-Shiro in the fused form is not really bound to a requirement...they were in that form, because they are Ichigo's spirit and they knew of his upcoming fight with Aizen, so they produced the ultimate test for him, to surpass everything...

    When Ichigo had problems against Kenpachi, Zangetsu used a test, when Ichigo had problems with the Visored powers, Shirosaki tested him...so the inner spirit just came out with the perfect test, which overcome would grant Ichigo the necessary skill set or powers to prevail

    ---------- Post added at 05:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 AM ----------

    About going to the inner world and chill...that could work, that's true...but remember that Ichigo wasn't capable of entering his own spirit world until Isshin showed him the meditation trick

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    The way I see it now is that "Shirosaki" and Zangetsu are one and the same, but are, as benelori put it, two sides of the same coin (that is Ichigo).

    Quote Quote:
    So yeah, Ichigo had to subdue this thing apparently. He goes to the Visored where he fights his inner hollow again. Here, he finds his hollow literally has BECOME Zangetsu. Apparently he had become the dominant Freudian personality in Ichigo's soul. (I believe this change officially happened right after Ichigo's hollow took over during the Byakuya fight. Further emphasized by him actually doing Black Getsuga before Ichigo.)

    This initially made me ask two things. Does this mean, old man Zangetsu could come out of the hollow just like the hollow came out of Zangetsu back in SS arc? We never saw this feat however. Ichigo however upon defeating it, stabs the hollow, and the hollow dispersed INSIDE him.

    Okay.....so does old man Zangetsu just pop back into existance now? Ichigo had usurped his hollows dominance, thus 'freeing' Zangetsu right and restoring balance? So where was the Zanpakuto? We never got to see.
    I don't think Zangetsu would come out of the Hollow, because Zangetsu (i.e. the shinigami part) is the part that was there to begin with. He would just appear, in my opinion, like he did when they first met, and like he did with Ichigo's Dangai training. Since Ichigo is a shinigami naturally, surpressing and controlling the Hollow would enable Old Man Zangetsu to reappear.

    Quote Quote:
    Also another thing. The hollow transformation Ichigo went through on the outside during this time. This was different than the transformation that had begun during the Byakuya fight. Notably that Ichigo's hollow was conscious and speaking to Byakuya, while the Visored hollow transformation was more mindless. Yet we all thought this is what Ichigo would have become if the transformation had continued during the Byakuya fight.

    So why the difference in sanity? Ichigo was almost blacking out from exhaustion when the hollow took over in the Byakuya fight. Is this the reason the hollow was able to take full mental and physical control for that brief moment? Because there was no power struggle at all?(until Ichi rips the mask off, but even then it's an audible outside-world struggle, not inner-world)
    I think all of Ichigo's Hollow transformations would've been different. The one that appeared against Byakuya, the one that appeared during the Visored training, and the one that appeared against Ulquiorra. And they all would've been different because Ichigo's power was at different levels in each. Ichigo's power has been constantly growing through the series, so he has never reached a "complete" point. Though, I do think "H2 Ichigo" was the most complete out of all on them. And perhaps by then the shinigami aspect was most complete, too.

    The differences in sanity probably stem from the circumstances in which the Hollow appeared. In his fight with Byakuya, Ichigo had been pushed into a corner, and was possibly going to lose. With Ulquiorra, Ichigo pretty much lost in the worst way. So when the Hollow took over, he was ready to avenge not just Ichigo, but what Ichigo was trying to hard to protect (Orihime).

    Quote Quote:
    If all that is true, then let's say Ichigo lost his inner battle during the Visored training? Would we had finally gotten the full hollow transformation Ichigo, but with a fully conscious 'Shirosaki' like during the Byakuya fight?
    I think that Hollow Ichigo would've been rather mindless, relying on just instint, like H2 Ichigo. I think Hollow's lack of consciousness is the deep-rooted desire for Ichigo to rely more and more on instinct. In the first appearance against Byakuya, the desire for raw battle instinct wasn't nearly as strong as it was during the Visored training. And that all goes back to what was happening in the story: Ichigo's lack of control led to his friends being hurt; i.e. he couldn't protect like he wanted to.

    Quote Quote:
    H2 Ichigo(somebody please tell me the origin of this term, it's used everywhere in the bleach fandom. This transformation was called 'Ichigonator' on mangahelpers for a while before H2 took over).

    Ok. What the heck is this thing supposed to be. This thing threw out all other conventions. Not only was it a completely different form(whose humanoid form acted as a catalyst for the VL fanatics , and rebirthed the entire VL speculation movement, as in claiming every breathing hollow was a VL), but it solo'd untouched R2 Ulq in like 2 chapters. This is Kubo we're talking about, and H2 Ichigo was so strong that it ended a fight in 2 chapters. Before, Visored Ichigo(the guy was using hollow powers!) was getting solo'd by Ulq's first release. Not to mention the fact that Ulq basically just released for lulz since he wasn't forced to release or anything. Then he does R2. Now how much stronger he got is up for debate, but then H2 comes in and curbstomps R2 in record time by Bleach standards.

    That was 'The Lust' arc. And to this day it confuses me. Was that a full hollow transformation or what? I mean why was Ichigo's entire body not covered in 'hollow material'? Why was this not the same transformation seen in the Visored training arc. If that Visored arc transformation had finished(it never finished before Ichigo regained control), I wonder if it would have grown horns like H2 as well.
    H2 Ichigo is, at least, a FAAAAR better name that "Ichigonator". But really the only names that make the most sense are "Zangetsu" or something like "Ichigo's Hollow". Idk.

    I think H2 Ichigo is supposed to be the prime example of raw instinct. The transformation was different, I think, because Ichigo's power level was different. It might be lame, but I really think that's the case.

    Quote Quote:
    Was it the power of this form that was the superior strength Ulq felt, back when he went to Karkura Town with Yammy? If so, then what was up with the Visored training transformation if the hollow had this power all along?
    I would say yes. The reason the two transformations were different, in my opinion, is because the circumstances leading up to them were different. The later one (dying/failing to protect Orihime) was far greater, as was Ichigo's power, thus the horns and general badassery.

    Quote Quote:
    Now people were in doubt at the time that Ichigo was actually the one talking. He was clearly not the normal Ichigo. So was this truly a higher level of the Visored training transformation where Ichigo's personality actually managed to seep through? Since it was still a beastly intellect mostly, was there another inner battle going on? You could say no there wasn't since Ichigo was at mental exhaustion like in the Byakuya fight. Then I remembered the Kenpachi fight where not only was Ichigo cut down and bleeding, but proceeded to have an 'inner battle', get back up and 'beat' Kenpachi. But that was only possible as the actual Zangetsu was still in control of things back then right?
    After the fight with Ulquiorra was over, Ichigo had no idea what happened. I propose that H2 Ichigo's power was at such a level as to possess actual intelligence, but still ran on pure battle rage. Perhaps Ichigo's need to protect is so engrained into his mentality that it influences both aspects of his power.

    Upon looking at different scanlations of when H2 Ichigo was speaking, I'm wondering if in the Japanese it actually specifies whether or not he wanted to help "Orihime" (by saying "her), or just wanted to "help". I wonder because during the Dangai training Zangetsu says to Ichigo that he just wanted to protect Ichigo. So now I'm wondering if H2 Ichigo is more a product of the hollow desire to protect Ichigo more than it was to protect Orihime. I think the question "Who was he talking to"? is as important as "Who was talking?".

    And if both aspects of Ichigo's power were desperately trying to protect Ichigo, it might explain the seamless combination of both in Hollow Ichigo's appearances, especially with H2 Ichigo.

    [qupte]And the big question that plagues me. If the byakuya fight featured a conscious Shirosaki, and the Visored training featured a beastly instinct, then why oh why did H2 Ichigo have what sounded like Ichigo himself talking "I....I will protect...her," he said while in that form in reference to Orihime.(yet he swings his sword almost burrying her in sand forcing Uryuu to shield her, but that's another story).[/quote]

    Which adds to my point that Orihime wasn't really what H2 Ichigo was trying to protect. Which is why a scrupulous reading of the Japanese matters and why one solid translation should be agreed upon. Funny how something that seems so minor might make a huge difference.

    Quote Quote:
    All that achieved was to rescramble the confusion in a different way. So Ichigo achieved a new mask? So he got a power-up seeing as he just dropped a crescent moon on Yammy? I then ruled out that there was some kind of 'inner-struggle'. This must have been him continuing to rely on hollow powers, and it was getting stronger from all the fighting?

    The reason I ruled out 'inner-struggle' was because we skip to the dangai training. Ichigo is back in his inner world. Tensa Zangetsu is there, and he PULLS Shirosaki OUT of Ichigo. At this my mind was blown. It all came together. I had forgotten when Ichigo beat Shirosaki in the Visored training, that he had disappeared inside of Ichigo, similar to how Shirosaki had previously disappeared inside Zangetsu. So the whole time in Hueco Mundo, Ichigo had Shirosaki inside of him and was relying on it as I had suspected. Thus tehre was no way there was an 'inner struggle' during the H2 fight because Ichigo had already subdued his hollow and proof of such was when Tensa had to pull 'the source of Ichigo's despair' out of him being Shirosaki.

    So again, what was up with the H2 transformation, random boost in power, and the new mask that BROKE after Ichigo used it. Why did it break if Ichigo had still been in control of his hollow at the time? Does the higher power level require more 'Visored training,' as in like the training he did with Hiyori to up his initial mask time limit?
    I think Ichigo was in control up until the point when Ulquiorra blasted a gaping hole in Ichigo's torso. Afterwards against resurrected Yammy, I'm not even sure Ichigo knew what had happened with his mask, because he wasn't even conscious of H2 Ichigo's appearance or power, which a major difference between this and the Visored transformation. I propose the mask broke between Ichigo wasn't aware of the new change in power, and thus couldn't actually control it. He got used to it eventually, but remember that he didn't find out about H2 Ichigo until he was training in the Dangai., and all of that is probably part of why your next quote is applicable:

    Quote Quote:
    Meanwhile Tensa Zangetsu is raging because he hates the rain. And what did Ichigo do to make Tensa like this? He apparently had subconsciously went Noah's Arc level Great flood mode on his inner world. The place is flooded, Tensa has no flood insurance and so he yanks Shiro out of Ichigo. The apparent cause of the rain?

    And what do we see? Shirosaki wearing the horned mask.. So what was up with the hornless mask Ichigo used against Yammy?
    Ichigo "dies", and the hollow takes over. After almost blwoing itself up, H2 Ichigo submerges and Ichigo comes back to normal. Afterwards, Ichigo goes Visored mode. I'd also like to point out that the mask didn't BREAK, but rather it would not appear when Ichigo tried to summon it. , which is because Ichigo had no idea he'd gained it, and perhaps the Hollow wasn't going to comply so easily?

    Perhaps he felt Ichigo was ungrateful? Maybe he was mad because he didn't get a thank you? [/joke]

    I think Ichigo's inner world eventually became flooded because of the worries about facing Aizen, who was the greatest enemy with a seemingly ridiculous power that no one could avoid. He'd witnessed Aizen's badassedness himself, watching captain after captain fall. He even saw Urahara, Yoruichi, Isshin, and Yamamoto defeated, and these people are supposed to represent the strongest in Soul Society. And now Ichigo is supposed to beat the guy who pretty much owned the Gotei 13?

    That's a lot of pressure for a teenager. Not to mention that Aizen was then on his way to kill a million people, including Ichigo's closest friends and family. I think Ichigo's resolve was all over the place. I think Gin saw that, too.



    Quote Quote:
    The unanswerable question: Could Post-dangai Ichigo have used his hollow mask at all?
    Followup to that question: Would it have horns or would it be the same mask he used against Yammy? Possibly with more stripes or something, similar to how his old mask used to always get stripes added as he grew stronger
    I'm still debating that myself, but I like benelori's answer. "Final Ichigo" was the perfect merging Ichigo's shinigami and hollow, I guess. I've been typing for like, an hour at this point, so now I'm just gonna stop, lol.

    I hope I helped a little. Even though Bleach is my favorite anime/manga, I don't often spend the time to really think about the events in the story, so this was refreshing, I suppose.

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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    I don't have answers to all of your questions but the way I see it, there was a struggle between Zangetsu and Shirosaki for being the dominant personality in Ichigo's inner world. IIRC Shirosaki said something like "I took over, I'm the master now, Zangetsu is no more" during the vizard training. Ichigo's negative feelings were possibly feeding his hollow and when the hollow got strong enough, he was fighting for dominance of Ichigo's body unlike Zangetsu who was quietly lending his power to Ichigo. Just like Kenpachi and his zanpakuto weren't in perfect harmony and hurting each other, IMHO Zangetsu's dominance was making Ichigo's hollow powers weaken and his shinigami powers strengthen, Shirosaki's dominance was doing the opposite.

    In that sense, Ulquiorra did the worst thing that could be done, he filled Ichigo with despair, which in turn triggered the final transformation of his hollow form which IMHO was akin to resurreccion of an arrancar. Ichigo was making full use of his hollow side at that point, which was strong enough to destroy Ulquiorra as pointed out by Ulquiorra himself. It makes sense, full hollow without resurreccion gave Byakuya a hard time and full shinigami in shikai (akin to full hollow without resurreccion) almost defeated Kenpachi.

    IMHO Zangetsu and Shirosaki merged during FGT training because Ichigo's life was in danger and the only way to protect him was to cooperate. The successful merging of Ichigo's powers made him transcendental, he didn't have or need a mask at that point because he already had access to all the power at his disposal. I think Ichigo's powers are still merged and we won't see his mask until Zangetsu and Shirosaki separate if such a thing is possible.

    ---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolation View Post
    Before we start I just want to say, what is the difference between the biblioteca and the normal threads found here on the main Bleach board?
    Oh, I forgot to answer that, there's not always a clear-cut distinction but topics about characters, their zanpakuto and techniques are more suited to Biblioteca, more general topics like "fullbring" belong in main forum.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    Uhm...
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolation
    The unanswerable question: Could Post-dangai Ichigo have used his hollow mask at all?
    Followup to that question: Would it have horns or would it be the same mask he used against Yammy? Possibly with more stripes or something, similar to how his old mask used to always get stripes added as he grew stronger
    IMO just like benelori pointed out the post-dangai Ichigo is the ultimate being,both his Hollow and Zangetsu fused together,creating a new entity(which has yet to be named,if it even has a name).He can't use the mask because basically there is no mask,just think like the mask turned into the chain or something like that(though it's obvious this didn't happen),or that the mask turned into raw reiatsu or something like that,dunno how to explain it...there is no longer a Hollow neither Zangetsu but a fusioned being that's completely out of Bleach and tbh I expect Kubo to give some answers regarding the fused Tensa Zangetsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolation
    That brings us to the fullbring arc which you don't even want me to get started on. J/K. I actually don't have much to say about the arc since it's not come to a close yet. I just want to know whether Ichigo still has hollow powers at all and is he as strong as post-dangai Ichigo and why the desgin change. We know Ichigo's bankai design symbolizes everything since he told Unohana his bankai symbolizes the amount of reiatsu he had, so any costume change means something. I know we can't answer current arc questions yet, so it'll have to wait, but we can discuss them.
    I dunno about the thing about the robe and how it symbolizes the amount of reiatsu he has,I've always thought of it as not-cannon or just a joke,I duno why...just take a look at Byakuya's fight,Ichigo had no more reiatsu at the end of his fight when the Hollow took over yet he still had a full robe,or when he fought Grimmjow at the end of the fight he still had his whole robe(partly damaged,of course)but it never meant he had full reiatsu,so I'm quite skeptical about this one.

    The design changed,because (imo) of the recent Fullbring costume Ichigo had previously acquired.Basically,the Fullbring training as well as the Fullbring itself(the (ugly) costume ) left their mark on Ichigo's soul and modified his Shikai and Bankai,though I do not know at what extent.

    I was expecting the new Shikai to be the post-dangai Shikai but his Bankai suggests that it's not that,rather...something else...we need some explanations,really.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Revolation's Avatar
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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    I don't have answers to all of your questions but the way I see it, there was a struggle between Zangetsu and Shirosaki for being the dominant personality in Ichigo's inner world. IIRC Shirosaki said something like "I took over, I'm the master now, Zangetsu is no more" during the vizard training. Ichigo's negative feelings were possibly feeding his hollow and when the hollow got strong enough, he was fighting for dominance of Ichigo's body unlike Zangetsu who was quietly lending his power to Ichigo. Just like Kenpachi and his zanpakuto weren't in perfect harmony and hurting each other, IMHO Zangetsu's dominance was making Ichigo's hollow powers weaken and his shinigami powers strengthen, Shirosaki's dominance was doing the opposite.

    In that sense, Ulquiorra did the worst thing that could be done, he filled Ichigo with despair, which in turn triggered the final transformation of his hollow form which IMHO was akin to resurreccion of an arrancar. Ichigo was making full use of his hollow side at that point, which was strong enough to destroy Ulquiorra as pointed out by Ulquiorra himself. It makes sense, full hollow without resurreccion gave Byakuya a hard time and full shinigami in shikai (akin to full hollow without resurreccion) almost defeated Kenpachi.

    IMHO Zangetsu and Shirosaki merged during FGT training because Ichigo's life was in danger and the only way to protect him was to cooperate. The successful merging of Ichigo's powers made him transcendental, he didn't have or need a mask at that point because he already had access to all the power at his disposal. I think Ichigo's powers are still merged and we won't see his mask until Zangetsu and Shirosaki separate if such a thing is possible.

    Yes! You answered the question I actually forgot to ask. It goes back how I said in the OP that people were saying Ichigo's powers were inbalanced, and things like he had lost his bankai speed after SS arc. There was that and the fact that his enemies got faster as well.

    But it was also apparently because the growing dominance of his hollow side was weakening his shinigami powers as you've now said. There was alot of speculation on that back in HM arc. Thanks for reminding me.

    My last question is why was H2 Shirosaki so strong, and Visored Ichigo so weak? Wait I'll try to answer this. The Visored form only called on a fraction of his hollow powers or something. Does it goes back to Uryuu's water spicket analogy for Ichigo, back when they first fought the menos grande? Where it's said how Ichigo doesn't really control his spiritual power and that his regular spiritual power level is it's lowest state possible.

    Uryuu used the water spicket/water tap analogy to Ichigo saying if you turn on the tap and a huge amount of water comes out, then one would instinctively turn the tap off. He said how the menos grande's cero had 'forced ichgo's tap open', and Ichigo injuring the menos was the final result.
    So if the menos forced Ichigo's tap open, Ulq basically did the equivalent of yanking the actual water pipe out the ground, and spraying water all over the dry Hueco Mundo desert for the first time, thus H2 Ichigo? That has to be the reason H2 was so much stronger than Ichigo?
    It goes back to the theory of him not being in good control of his spiritual powers because of the lack of tranquility in his inner world with the Shirosaki/Zangetsu dominance issues?

    Hmmm.
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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolation View Post
    My last question is why was H2 Shirosaki so strong, and Visored Ichigo so weak? Wait I'll try to answer this. The Visored form only called on a fraction of his hollow powers or something. Does it goes back to Uryuu's water spicket analogy for Ichigo, back when they first fought the menos grande? Where it's said how Ichigo doesn't really control his spiritual power and that his regular spiritual power level is it's lowest state possible.
    Probably.

    I wonder if Ichigo could use H2 form willingly because without this form, I don't think Ichigo had full access to his hollow powers. It seems to me that the mask was emulating his H1 form, this is why vizard form was considerably weaker than H2 form. IMHO it's similar to Tousen's masked form and his resurreccion, if Ichigo knew how to release his H2 form like Tousen did, he would have been much stronger.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Revolation's Avatar
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    Re: Questioning the history of Ichigo's powers

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post


    I dunno about the thing about the robe and how it symbolizes the amount of reiatsu he has,I've always thought of it as not-cannon or just a joke,I duno why...just take a look at Byakuya's fight,Ichigo had no more reiatsu at the end of his fight when the Hollow took over yet he still had a full robe,or when he fought Grimmjow at the end of the fight he still had his whole robe(partly damaged,of course)but it never meant he had full reiatsu,so I'm quite skeptical about this one.

    The design changed,because (imo) of the recent Fullbring costume Ichigo had previously acquired.Basically,the Fullbring training as well as the Fullbring itself(the (ugly) costume ) left their mark on Ichigo's soul and modified his Shikai and Bankai,though I do not know at what extent.

    I was expecting the new Shikai to be the post-dangai Shikai but his Bankai suggests that it's not that,rather...something else...we need some explanations,really.


    Hm? When Ichigo was in the garganta with Unohana, he talked about how his bankai clothes symbolize the amount of reiatsu he has. Thus, the canon. His new post-dangai design obviously meant to us that he had better control over his full power, this the change in clothes to symbolize maturity.

    Now with this new design in the current arc, the actual blade is different in shikai. I think some of his clothes were different as well. We all thought, "oh this must be the post-dangai shikai/desgn that we never got to see", but like you said, then he went bankai and that blade was different as well. And no chains.
    It may be the fullbring influence, but I was sure Ginjou took that 'Summoned Skull' looking fullbring away, so like you said, we need explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Probably.

    I wonder if Ichigo could use H2 form willingly because without this form, I don't think Ichigo had full access to his hollow powers. It seems to me that the mask was emulating his H1 form, this is why vizard form was considerably weaker than H2 form. IMHO it's similar to Tousen's masked form and his resurreccion, if Ichigo knew how to release his H2 form like Tousen did, he would have been much stronger.
    I'm loving the Tousen analogy here. At first i didn't get why everyone called H2 a resurrecion. I didn't see the link....until now. This is why I like analogies.
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