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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
So after reading the latest chapter of Bleach, any hope of this arc being redeemed just flew out the window. I'm not saying the fullbringer arc is now over (dear God i hope it was), but it has just past the point where it is now beyond redemption. The reason why the fullbringer arc was so horrible (in my opinion) was not because of bad design or a bad concept no. The reason why was simply because of an abundance of plot induced character stupidity and logical black holes...
Let me list a few that come to mind.
-Ichigo never refused to get his powers back, he just accepted losing them. What I mean by this is that Ichigo would have gotten his powers back if there was a way. (srsly not gonna have this arguement again, its fact). That being said, why didn't urahara stab him with the sword 2 years ago?
-If you say something like, "because it took him 2 years to come up with it, or 2 years to get captain's reiatsu" That still doesn't explain why he didn't at least inform ichigo of this. At least that way, Ichigo woudln't have sought out the Fullbringers. And I know Urahara is very secretive but at this point he should really put some trust in Ichigo, the guy did literally save 2 worlds.
-Speaking of trust and calling in Favors, When Ichigo first learned of this enemy that was turning his friends against him, he should have sought the help of the soul society. I know he's no longer a shinigami, but there are ways to contact them, and EVERYONE there owes him a huge favor.
-Ok.. can anyone tell me what the true goal of the fullbringer group really is? Lets talk about that for a sec
-The goal was obviously never to give Ichigo their powers, they seemed to have no desire to part with their fullbrings.
-In the end we see that the goal was to steal Ichigo's powers (for whatever purpose still unknown).
-So you want me to believe that the primary goal for this Karakura Town based group is to seek after powerful shinigami who have lost their power AND were also born to a human mother who suffered an attack from hollow.... WAIT WHAT?
-The entire purpose of the group's existence is basically to steal the power of... Ichigo. How convinient -.-. I can't think of one other shinigami who fits that description. And we have a pretty good idea of the size of soul society and the number of capable fighters there. And Ichigo is srsly the only one who fits this description.
-Actually my above point stands corrected by the manga. There was a scene of Suspenderboy killing a shinigami after taking his powers. Could there be a higher purpose to this? Maybe, but at this point its hard to care.
-The reasoning for not turning Ishida agaisn't Ichigo was SO BAD! So it can be a challenge? I mean really? Worst writing ever. KT should have made some bs reason like "it doesn't work on quincys" and that would have been 100x better
-So Suspenderboy's (dont knwo his real name) power is to change how ppl feel towards him (villian, friend, unkown, w/e) andthen to revert it on the second cut. So when he cut Ginjo, he had to go and cut his whole group, otherwise they would have still been loyal to susspenderboy. This is the only logical explanation because Ginjo obviously had the group prior to attacking ishida.
-So he cut all of them because they are "bad actors" ?? Such bad reasoning for 2 main reasons.
- Reason 1, They never had to be Ichigo's friends. Ichigo sought them, they were a means to restore his power, not a social club. Remember the Vizards? Were they all friendly to Ichigo at the start? No, they weren't. Groups like this are a means to an end, and Ichigo knows this. No one was looking for bffs here...
-Reason 2, What the hell? Even after that "life changing cut", they were still jerks to Ichigo! Let me make something clear for everyone reading. Ginjo CUT ICHIGOS EYES for crying out loud while pretending to be Ichigo's enemy to piss him off while actually under suspenderboy's influence to be Ichigo's friend while actually truly ichigo's enemy!!!! What is this about Ginjo's bad acting? HE'S A GREAT ACTOR! One of the worst plot devices i have ever seen and easily contradicted by the manga.
-So lets look at suspenderboy and his little minion. Was there any reason whatsoever to send this guy to kill orihime? Nope. Considering what their goals were, that scene was completely pointless. If there was a point to it, it was to show how "scary" suspenderboy is. Honestly when i look at this guy, I really really reallly miss Aizen
-Once again, it seems that in Bleach, everyone's favorite activity is leaving Ichigo out of the loop. Seriously. Remember when Ginjo first talked to Ichigo? He told him to investigate his father and Urahara etc. Now Ginjo was just talking crap, but he made a good point. Isshin and Urahara were acting extra shadey for no damn reason. They should have been like "ICHIGO we might have found a way to restore your power!" instead of like, "lets not tell ichigo, yeah! that sounds cool!"
What this boils down to is that KT wanted to have some big twist, and in order ot do so he had to make everyone an idiot. That is simply it. He wanted to have a major twist, but in order for it work, the whole manga had to be turned on its head. I have had my gripes with Bleach before, but this is puts any other problem i had wiith Bleach to shame.
I took issue (as many of you did) with some aspects of the Godzen arrancar arc, but at least it was coherent and the plot holes were neglible. Remember guys, this is bleach's first attempt at a restart. Even after the soul society arc it wasn't really a restart because Aizen was still out there.
For those of you saying, "Just wait and see, the fullbringer arc may turn out to have some major revelations and-" No, i want to stop you there. The only way this arc can be salvaged is for it to stop doing damage and just go away. Treat this arc as "How Ichigo got his powers back" and move on. I dont care if there is some evil big boss ginjo and suspenders work for who asked them to steal power. I really dont care. This arc is so bad that I want Ichigo to just kill all the fullbringers, tell chad he is not a fullbringer, and pretend like this never happened.
If you think I'm a bleach hater or anything, just read my posts, I defend this manga more than most. I just cant stand to see it slip into mediocrity.
Oh and if you want to refute any of the points I made concerning the ridiculousness of this arc, please feel free to do so. Most of those are really questions and I don't know the answer, so I would be glad to hear your opinion. If someone can offer a legitimate reason, manga supported reason why the fullbringers did what they did, I would really like to hear it bcuz... i'm just confused now, lol.
Last edited by WaveBossa; August 21, 2011 at 02:37 PM. Reason: Organizing my thoughts
Ah yes, i've been saying all of this stuff in the discussion thread. especially about how we basically know nothing about xcution because ginjou's words can't be trusted.
You can say all the bad things you want about this arc, and I agree with some of them, but at least it didn't drag on, and on, and on, and on.
Like the two arcs that came before it. And you know, the reason that it didn't is part of why it turned out like this. Ever since the Aizen stuff was over with and we entered this transitional fullbringer arc, the Bleach ratings have gone down. I'm sure Kubo wanted to work with these fullbringers more, and bring this arc to its logical completion before returning Ichigo's shinigami powers to him. But no, t'was not to be, the real reason why this arc sucks way more than it should have? Us. Or the Japanese version of 'us'. Impatient fanboys and fangirls braying like mules because this arc didn't live up to their immensely high expectations, compared to all the fantastic, massively empowered and near-plotless shinigami fights that came before it of course. All we ever wanted was for Ichigo to get his shinigami powers back, so Kubo caved under pressure from the ratings, probably whilst grunting foul expletives under his breath, and hurried it all along.
In conclusion, we can call out every mistake made in this arc, every little inconsistency, but at the end we're likely to blame for half of them, the impatient tits that we are. Still, did you expect Kubo to suddenly turn into Stephen King now the Hueco Mundo/Fake Karakura Town arcs are over? Perhaps the density of plot holes increased merely because there actually is a plot this time. Well, in terms of plot, anything beats 'Aizen made a bunch of arrancars, wants to invade Soul Society and kill the Spirit King, a billion fights ensue', so now it just looks like Kubo is straining to make up for all that.
IN a good story, the 2 are very easy to tell apart. In bleach, its hard to tell because it seems that everyone is liable to lie. Let me make an example. Say you were reading Naruto, and someone says, Minato was the 4th hokage. You have absoluetely no reason to not trust them whatsoever. The narrator is giving you factual info via a character. Now, if in naruto madara says he had nothing to do with the fox and the attack on konoha, you distrust him because he has something to gain by lying and motive.
Now juxtapose this with bleach. I really would not surprise me if someone was just like... we have all been lying the whole time, there is no soul king, oops sorry. I mean honestly, Aizen did the whole 0-9 thing... anything is possible. People in bleach lie for no reason, its frustrating because you cant trust anyone (srsly urahara) and the main character knows NOTHING (srsly ichigo).
---------- Post added at 09:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 AM ----------
I wasn't aware of bleach's rating drop, but it does explain alot. The fullbringer arc seemed to hit a point where everything was accelerated and possible good plot mechanics and story-boarding might have been shoved out the window in order to bring it all together much faster and much more sloppily. It seems like when Suspenderboy was sitting in Ichigo's house, was when everything went from 30mph to 120mph and they mysterious dynamic was ousted in favor of desperation, bleach's favorite tone.
For once, i would like to ichigo fight a battle vs someone that was more than just a sword battle. I thought we were getting something like that this time around. An adversary who could change the allegiances of those close to you and warp your very reality putting you in a personal hell.
But in the end it turned into nothing more than sword fight. meh.
I can't really say that fans are fully to blame for this. If anyone its the editors. When Bleach started it had 0 ratings and no fans pushing it to be something of their own creation. Now its an internationally recognized and respected manga with a great amount of pressure to do well. That being said, shortening a story or speeding up an arc to satiate short term desires is a fool's bargain because of the adverse affects it will have down the like.
Long story short, make a good story with captivating characters (first 60 chapters of bleach, back when rukia was acutally an interesting character), and you'll get a certain type of fan. Make a nonsensical battle royal (most of the chapters since then) and you will get a different type of fan.
Kubo needs to decide what crowd he's gonna play to. Or rather, his editors need to...
Last edited by WaveBossa; August 22, 2011 at 01:13 PM.
everyone in the discussion thread when rukia came back was like "oh he made rukia come back because last chapter had bad ratings".
well, that's not entirely how it works. Fact is, by the time the ratings came out for the chapter, two chapters before the rukia coming back chapter came out, kubo was probably already 2-3 chapters ahead of the current chapter with the shinigami coming back.
kubo always says how he draws ahead. my guess is he's at least a volume and a couple chapters ahead of the current release. even if it's less than that, it still proves my point, and if it's more than that then it further proves it.
If I recall correctly, the Arrancar arc was supposed to be much smaller, but its popularity motivated him to make it much longer. Something similar could easily have happened here, only in reverse.
That's why i had even higher expectations for the Fullbring arc.Kubo had time to plan everything thoroughly.However,he should've started a new manga with this concept,as it seems that he wanted to much.He created a new world in the old Bleach world,which led to more plot-holes down the road.
I wonder what Kubo will do in his next arc.The fans will probably forget about this arc and move on.Kubo should do that as well.
The new chapter has made things more interesting granted, BUT i know from all these years of reading bleach that the former plot holes are gonna be left alone and forgotten.
/sigh.... I just wish kubo could combine the best of both worlds.
I don't think you understand the concept of a plothole very well. No offense is meant by this. A plothole is when something appears in the plot to explain something, yet contradicts everything else. So far you have not presented anything like that. I am presenting my points against you in a number fashioned and in chrological order. IE, every - statement you made is represented by a number in my post in order of me reading them (so from top to bottom).
1.We don’t know why, but it can easily be explained. Examples of arguments are: They wanted Ichigo to have a normal life. Even Urahara asked Isshin “Are you sure you want to do this? Your son won’t have a future after this.” in refrence to restoring his powers. Also, there probably wasn’t this threat two years ago either.
2. The argument that it took him two years to come up with it is fail, but Idon’t think that’s the reason at all.
3. How can he seek the help of Soul Society, especially when, when this arc began, he made it clear (when Keigo brought up Rukia) that the wanted nothing to do with them anymore. That and Ginjou’s manipulations pretty much turned things around for him.
4. Not sure how this is considered a plot hole but ok.
7. What did I just read? They didn’t say powerful Shinigami, just someone who is half Shinigami half Hollow. We don’t know why Ichigo could use fullbring, but it’s very likely that his REMAINING REIATSU, which he was said to have, had some of his HOLLOW REIATSU inside of it. In fact, that makes perfect logical sense because he had both Hollow and Shinigami reiatsu left in him. I see no issue here.
8. Because every Shinigami in the Soul Society goes around making love to humans and then those human-shinigami babies go and get Hollow powers. Yes, because this isn’t a Shounen manga where the main character has unlikely things happen to him. I think are you in the wrong genre.
9. Read new chatpers, etc, etc. Only hard to care if you don’t understand the concept of the genre itself.
10. Read new chatpers, etc, etc. Only hard to care if you don’t understand the concept of the genre itself.
11. His name is Tsukishima. Not sure how this is a plothole either, but ok.
12. This point encompasses your reasons (both one and two) for them being cut. They weren’t jerks, Ginjou was being terribly cliché, and Ichigo isn’t the hardest person to confuse. The acting wasn’t bad, because Ginjou was still believable and seemed like he had good intentions from the start. Also, this good acting was only a result of him being cut. Your logic here is horrid to read, isn’t contradicted at all, and shows your lack of understanding for the plot devices at play here.
13. Once again, what did I just read? The whole scene was to introduce Moe and for Orihime to be cut, as well as to established the relationship between Moe and Tsukishima. I think you are, once again, completely missing the point here in some kind of random blind hate for this arc that is completely unfounded. But I digress…
14. Isshin and Urahara both clearly seem to have realized that Ginjou is now involved with Ichigo. If they were to step in, who knew what Ginjou would do? Whisk Ichigo away and brainwash him (spoileralert: HE ALREADY DID THAT!!!)?
Overall I am very disappointed in everyone that liked, thanked and agreed with this post because it has numerous pitfalls in logic and is analyzing things in such a shallow manner that I feel like it was more of a chore to read the post then to reply. I mean no disrespect by this but I stand by what I said. Have a good day.
Yeah, though like I said, I believe Kubo had the arc planned from the start. i doubt he just decided rukia and the shinigami should come back "here" because the ratings are bad "here". Even if he did have time to prepare, this arc was most likely planned with fan service and all involved and planned as well. Along with the whole drawing ahead factor
Yes, Urahara didn't inform Ichigo of all this. We still don't know why. Listen up, dude, the fact that we still haven't been told what's up doesn't mean we won't be told later. You can't expect Urahara to show up and rant about the reasons why he didn't do this or that. Because it's a fucking battle. If after the battle Urahara still doesn't talk, then I'll accept that you're right. But not now. Urahara might have a very good reson to do what he has just done, so don't jump into conclusions. Please.
As for Ichigo not asking for help... of course he didn't. He never, ever does. Because he's a conceited, arrogant immature boy who still thinks he can solve everything himself. That has been stablished over and over and over and OVER. He was about to rush into SS and HM alone, until Chad told him off and actually said "don't carry the burden alone". In this very arc, Unagiya told him off again, saying that "it's OK to rely on people, you know?" while holding him by the collar.
Had Ichigo actually called for help, it would have been out. Of. Character.
About Xcution motives:
This is where your rant becomes... well, a rant. Xcution wants Ichigo because he's special. OF COURSE HE'S SPECIAL, WE KNOW THAT SINCE THE VERY START. Nobody but him has achieved trascendental state. Aizen said that he was special because he's a half breed, something that, as far as we know, nobody in SS is.
Xcution wants him because he's special. What Xcution wants is still a mystery. That's the whole point of, well, any compelling story: to not immediately knowing what's going on. It's as if Sherlock Holmes solved the case in the fist page.
Tsukishima killing a Shinigami was a LIE. If you didn't catch that maybe you shouldn't be talking about plot holes.
As for Tsukishima:
Dude, you're not even being serious anymore. Look, we don't know if Tsukishima cut the rest of the Fullbringers. Hell, he probably didn't. He didn't need to, because it was only Ginjo who was going to get close to Ichigo and it was only Ginjo who was a bad actor. The other Fullbringers just lied, that's all. We can see that in Riruka's pained expression when Orihime tells her that she's "kind".
And the main reason for Ginjo to be brainwhased is that Ichigo can guess people's intentions when he crosses swords with them. If Ginjo had simply tried to lie, Ichigo would have known something was off. And if he hadn't, it would have been a PLOT HOLE.
Oh, and Tsukishima sent Sishigawara to Orihime because he's a dick. I don't really need any more explanation.
About the shadey stuff:
That's just the first point all over again. WE. STILL. DON'T. KNOW. WHY THEY DID THAT. Maybe Isshin just wanted Ichigo to be normal until he had no choice but to yield, who knows.
You just seem to be the type of guy who doesn't like mystery and wants instatly solved questions. Also, you don't seem to like this new setting and characters. That's cool, tastes are tastes. But please, don't look for incoherence and plot holes where there are none.
As I have pointed out before, Bleach right now has the potential to develop plot holes, but only if Kubo doesn't properly explain things like the ones above or the sudden disappearance of Orihime and Chad.
Right now, there is nothing wrong. Just you and some other people not liking this arc.
I just don't buy that somebody doesn't like a work but still bothers to write long rants about it. I stopped reading Psyren because... because. And that's it. Many people don't like Bleach, and they sure as hell don't post in this forum.
Please have patience.
---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------
Ok you're first point about Urahara not explaining because they are in a battle. They haven't been in a battle for the past two years have they? The fact is that he went to the General and asked for this sword to be made for Ichigo pretty much tells us that something like this is doable in the bleach Universe. You still haven't explained why it took two years, and neither has Urahara, that's my issue. There is no mystery in that, it just sounds stupid.
I will concede that you are right, ichigo is an idiot, and will want to do everything on his own if possible. That is a valid point.
About Tsuki'sw/e ability, you're saying that he only cut Ginjo and not the rest of hte fullbringers and the rest of them just acted? Well that's even more complicated then what I was originally thinking. So there is Ginjo, the defacto leader, trying to take down (or even kill) tsukiw/e and the rest of the fullbringers have to fight tsukiw/e pretending like he's the badguy when he's really the good guy? And remember the page where all the members of xcution are all cut down by Tsukiw/e? All this to trick ichigo? You call that mystery? I call that bad writing.
Yeah your explanation makes no sense, but its not your fault, it's simply because you are trying to explain something that is illogical.
And as for your reasoning for why Ginjo had to things the way he did. The manga did not say that was the main reason, that's just your opinion. In fact, the manga did not mention that at all. The manga makes it clear that Ginjo did this because he wanted to make it fun and it would been too easy otherwise. Ichigo couldn't read Gin's real intentions so i'm not sure why you are putting so much stock in that ability of his. Its not like its ever been put to any real use in the manga. And You are missing the point I made, Ichigo never had to trust Ginjo, in fact he didn't trust him at all at first, but he was just doing this to get his power back. Ichigo thought he was using the fullbringers, just like he thought he was using the vizards.
Ichigo uses powers from a hollow who has promised to crush him and devour him. If the devil were to give ichigo a way to gain power, he woudl accept. This whole idea of trust is ridic, and you and I know this.
Once agian, The main thing that put me off about this arc is just the fact that ichigo's fullbringer power seemed completely irrelevant to the sword giving him power back. And that makes the whole thing seem irrelevant. Even when they explain what someone must go through in order to gain fullbringer power, ichigo never says anything like.. "Hmm did that happen to my mother at my birth?" The logical questions are skipped, and battle ensue.
And all these questions that i'm raising are legit questions. You say I should have patience, and i'm trying, but over 450 chapters in there are still some questions I have from the first volume, so you will have to excuse me if I presume that kubo will not address things like this anytime soon if ever.
It seems we are just at odds. Because what you see as mystery, I see as terrible writing. You think Tsuki putting Ginjo (and possibly his whole team) under that spell is mysterious, I see it as bad writing. You think the fact that Ichigo has fullbringer power, and doens't seem to care about what happened to his mother at his birth is mysterious, I see it as bad writing. You think the fact they waited 2 years to restore the power of quite possibly the strongest shinigami is mysterious, I think its pointless.
Just a difference in taste when it comes to writing styles I guess. I suppose Chad and Orihime can be hollows, and Ishida can be a fullbringer, and Karin can be a vastrolorde, and i'm sure there will be some people who will call that "mysterious" as well.
Last edited by WaveBossa; August 31, 2011 at 10:26 AM.
I see you didn't even bother to try and refute my points, so since they all still stand, I guess everything you just said is refutted by me? Lol
WaveBossa, wow dude this is arc is something like "story about how we will return power to Ichigo and watch how he pwn some bad asses", main action will start after. Don't take this stuff so close to ya HEART.
Okay first the Ichigo stuff.
First of all, Isshin has implied that there are certain reasons why he wanted Ichigo to lose his powers, or rather not get them back. It hasn't been outright stated yet, but no reason to ask questions like why didn't Urahara stab him two years ago. Ichigo seemed content with his powers being lost. He made that decision after all. He didn't seem particularly emotional saying goodbye to Rukia. Fast-forwarding 17 months later though, he begins to miss them and becomes desperate. And out of desperation for finding some way to get his powers back, turns to Ginjou and listens to him when he says Urahara can't be trusted. Him seeing Urahara interacting with his sister behind his back does look weird.
And Urahara IS a good guy, but he is shady as hell. God knows how many details he's kept from Ichigo and everyone else, not to mention that last exchange between him and Aizen before the latter was sealed. There's a reason why Ichigo punched Urahara in the face when they saw him after SS. But he's still not an enemy, at least not yet. If Ichigo was in a normal state of mind he would've had better judgment. After all, he broke down pretty bad once Ginjou took his powers. It seemed like it didn't REALLY start to bother Ichigo until after a long time.....and again, Isshin considers this choice to be something that takes away Ichigo's future. So its understandable that he would seriously hesitate going through with this for awhile.
Now the Xcution stuff....
Why yes, someone can tell you why the Fullbringers are doing what their doing. His name is Tite Kubo. It's called patience pal. And Bleach is a manga that demands quite a bit of it.
And let me ask you. What seems easier? Infiltrating SS and fighting a shitload of captains, or leading on a kid who at the moment has no powers whatsoever and helping him develop some so he trusts you so at the right moment you just stab him and take them? Plus they needed someone who could use Fullbring. Only humans have this power apparently, or at least no one in SS. And how the hell would they even get in to SS??!!!! They aren't shinigami......and Kuugo is on bad terms with SS.
"Suspenderboystuff" was awesome. Yeah, Ginjou had Tsukishima not cut Ishida just for the lulz. Whats wrong with a character making things more interesting just for the lulz? If Ishida was cut too, Ichigo would've been COMPLETELY screwed. However, having Ishida be attacked by an enemy and still retaining the memory of that happening helped persuade Ichigo to seek out Kuugo Ginjou. They were never going to kill Orihime. Just turn her against Ichigo.
Having a reason for Ichigo to get his powers back aside from just because he wants them back makes him want them back that much more, and will make him complete his Fullbring faster, not to mention trust Xcution that much more since they now have a common enemy. Plus, they needed Ichigo's Fullbring, so they had to train him so he could complete it. What, you expect Ginjou to be like, " LOL sup bro can I train you to learn Fullbring so I can steal your powers"? I like Tsukishima. No ones been able to troll Ichigo as hard, not even Aizen. He's quite evil too. And if you don't even know his name is Tsukishima, then you should really read more closely. Maybe this arc wouldn't seem as confusing if you read it more closely.
Tsukishima's memory ability was just convenient for this situation. Plus Kuugo IS a bad actor. The moment he reverted he called Ichigo Kurosaki, Kubo pointed this out. Ginjou's act didn't have me convinced at all back then anyway. Kubo was making Ginjou's intentions extremely vague so we would be unsure of whether he was a good or not, in order to surprise us. Compare the "bad" Ginjou back then to the one we have right now, and tell me which one seems like more of a real villain.
Now the shady stuff. Well, Urahara's shady, and Isshin always has had a really weird parenting style towards Ichigo, which we won't understand until Isshin's past and what Ichigo's secret is is explained.
People in Bleach are shady. They have secrets and reasons for being vague. It's how it works. And if everyone was just willing to outright explain the plot and all the secrets and everything in a manga, there would be no suspense or plot twists, and the execution wouldn't be as good. It's called plot-induced stupidity. It's pretty much a necessity for shounen.
This arc is awesome IMO. And can someone please show me where Kubo said it was supposed to end with the SS arc??? Because Kubo planned to have Isshin be a shinigami from the beginning, and there were loads, LOADS of things that needed to be explained, Chad and Orihime's powers, who the hell Urahara Kisuke is,and Aizen's betrayal was not an asspull, Kubo prepared for that very well. Besides, how could the SS arc have ended if Aizen didn't betray them. Ichigo saves Rukia from being executed and.....what? It's not like he was going to convince SS to back off. He takes her to the living world? Yeah SS will just pursue her. Plus, that would mean that the ridiculously harsh orders that were Central 46's execution orders would've really just been ridiculously harsh orders....that would be kinda silly. And Captain Aizen died extremely early in the SS arc.
This arc isn't over, there are still questions that haven't been explained. Until they have been, you can't call those questions stupid. If you want to complain about the pacing though, or just find all of it boring, thats another thing.
Last edited by exacta; September 06, 2011 at 03:59 PM.