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Thread: Lost Shinigami Agent Arc - Purpose and Effect

  1. #31
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Googlez_kun View Post
    Same here.Those recent chapters actually make it terrible as an arc.While the first chapters of this arc had a certain mood and theme,the later chapters totally screwed this up.I won't deny the fact that the Shinigami chapters have been kinda enjoyable,as we saw those old characters again,but they don't fit the arc at all.Furthermore,they destroyed the little originality Kubo tried to bring into the story.However,that's what Shonen JUMP is like.Original stuff is ignored,everything the kids want is mainstream shonen.It really is a pity,as I would've liked to see the original conclusion of this arc as well.

    Is that supposed to be a joke?
    -___________________________________________________________________-

    I was replying to Newbie. And he compared Bleach to One Piece in terms of ratings. Which of the two is more popular (by far at that)? Draw your own conclusions...pffft

    Oh wait...you did and you were wrong, very wrong.
    Last edited by cracker; October 11, 2011 at 09:34 AM.

  2. #32
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    -___________________________________________________________________-

    I was replying to Newbie. And he compared Bleach to One Piece in terms of ratings. Which of the two is more popular (by far at that)? Draw your own conclusions...pffft

    Oh wait...you did and you were wrong, very wrong.
    Oh,I see.Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    No need to get mad,though.

  3. #33
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    I was comparing One Piece's popularity with everything else. How many series get canceled because they only get a few dozen votes, or derailed from their original focus or story while other series like OP get thousands of votes unconditionally?

    There are at least 5 times in Bleach where editors jumped in due to high or low popularity:
    -The Shinigami Agent jumped right into the Soul Society arc due to low ratings. Not bad since the SS arc has better writing and consistence that the first arc.
    -The manga doesn't end, extends into Aizen and the hogyoku. This had a lot of potential.
    -Arrancar arc changed its focus to the shinigami against the Arrancar. This undid everything the AA was building up to.
    -Arrancar arc is extended due to popularity. This was both good and bad, since the story became character focused from that point, but at the same time, it was inconsistent with the first 50 chapters of the arc.
    -The Fullbring. I hate this one. This arc was fun and interesting, and it was clearly leading somewhere until the chapter after Rukia returns, where it turned into a fanservice display. I don't even bother to look for the spoilers anymore, it's not bad, but it's not what it is supposed to be.

  4. #34
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    No, this arc was great until the last few chapters, when it became obvious that editors jumped in because of the ratings. It was obvious that the arc was leading to something important, but now I have no idea where the hell it's heading to. The one problem that bothers me about this arc is that Ginjo can't be trusted, neither inside or outside of the story, this leads to all sorts of asumptions and "inconsistencies" because we never know if what he just said is true, example, Fullbrings coming from the traces a hollow left on a woman before giving birth and many other technical details.

    The whole Ichigo-Isshin mistrust was also leading somewhere, if you pay attention it is obvious it wasn't just accidental. Now there's probably no way to continue from there since the past ~8 chapters have been so different.

    I have decided to travel back a whole year into the past, buy a thousand of each week's JUMP magazine and vote for Bleach so the ratings don't drop, this way the arc will continue as it was intended to. Maybe even go back 9 years and do the same to the Shinigami agent arc, because it also jumped right into the Soul Society arc thanks to low ratings. Keigo, Tatsuki and Mizuiro are such overdeveloped characters for a nonexistent role in the story. Damn whoever keeps voting for One Piece, it already owns 2/5 of the anime and manga industry, literally, a few thousand votes won't drop it's rating, not even slightly.
    Kinda read like you were more directly comparing Bleach to One Piece, in that One Piece is so popular regardless of whatever the story, he can keep telling it because fanwise it always gets the support. Too bad Bleach isn't like that. No shinigami, no votes lol

    Quote Originally Posted by The Newbie. View Post
    I was comparing One Piece's popularity with everything else. How many series get canceled because they only get a few dozen votes, or derailed from their original focus or story while other series like OP get thousands of votes unconditionally?

    There are at least 5 times in Bleach where editors jumped in due to high or low popularity:
    -The Shinigami Agent jumped right into the Soul Society arc due to low ratings. Not bad since the SS arc has better writing and consistence that the first arc.
    -The manga doesn't end, extends into Aizen and the hogyoku. This had a lot of potential.
    -Arrancar arc changed its focus to the shinigami against the Arrancar. This undid everything the AA was building up to.
    -Arrancar arc is extended due to popularity. This was both good and bad, since the story became character focused from that point, but at the same time, it was inconsistent with the first 50 chapters of the arc.
    -The Fullbring. I hate this one. This arc was fun and interesting, and it was clearly leading somewhere until the chapter after Rukia returns, where it turned into a fanservice display. I don't even bother to look for the spoilers anymore, it's not bad, but it's not what it is supposed to be.
    It happens man. Unfortunately we don't live in a society where the majority would prefer well thought out stories. You can use Hollywood as reference. Its all about the fanservice, pleasing fans etc rather than I tell a story and you read and become involved. Its my story I'm not changing to please you, if you like it so be it...if not, move on. From experience when its done like that its usually better. And honestly if you going to do fanservice at atleast do it cool -__-

    To be honest I was pretty pissed when I saw the captains come back...I was like "WTF? No, already!?!"
    Last edited by cracker; October 11, 2011 at 12:04 PM.

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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    Kinda read like you were more directly comparing Bleach to One Piece, in that One Piece is so popular regardless of whatever the story, he can keep telling it because fanwise it always gets the support. Too bad Bleach isn't like that. No shinigami, no votes lol



    It happens man. Unfortunately we don't live in a society where the majority would prefer well thought out stories. You can use Hollywood as reference. Its all about the fanservice, pleasing fans etc rather than I tell a story and you read and become involved. Its my story I'm not changing to please you, if you like it so be it...if not, move on. From experience when its done like that its usually better. And honestly if you going to do fanservice at atleast do it cool -__-

    To be honest I was pretty pissed when I saw the captains come back...I was like "WTF? No, already!?!"
    Yeah, this world sucks, I'm going to create a new one. Anyway, the captains might have been planned to return at the same time Rukia did, but the current development is contrived. Someone replaced Underscore for a week and focused on Kut...Kusog... Giriko suddenly doing a 180 turn in personality. Same has happened with the recent chapters, it all took a different direction.

  6. #36
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    I have a general question to the last few postings, since everyone except me is in on the loop... how do you know exactly that editors steered Bleach' story at a given point?
    I could claim the same thing as soon as i detect bad story writing, but without any prove, it wouldn't be worth much. So, how do you guys know and is there any proof?
    Further, even when Editors attempt to interfere with Kubo's work, he shouldn't let them. Simple as that. Bleach has an enormous fan community and commercially its been in a good spot since SS Arc, i imagine. So how come that he has no artistic freedom? He has all the leverage anyone could have, so why wouldn't he use it to do whatever he wants?

    Someone mentioned One Piece in this Thread and i don't actually wanna spend any time discussing it here.
    However, i want to clearly say that One Piece isn't just popular for nothing. It is by far (!!) one of the best stories ever told. Bleach currently, cannot even compare to OP's Quality. The Balance in story telling is almost perfect and the quality of the chapters is a peak, rarely reached by any manga or epic story. I won't even mention the originallity and cultural worth of it ...
    Saying something like "it's popular no matter how good or bad it is", is just petty talk. So far it is an absolute Force. It hasn't become like Dragonball Z or Bleach yet, and probably never will since Oda is smart and creative enough.
    -_-

  7. #37
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    I have a general question to the last few postings, since everyone except me is in on the loop... how do you know exactly that editors steered Bleach' story at a given point?
    I could claim the same thing as soon as i detect bad story writing, but without any prove, it wouldn't be worth much. So, how do you guys know and is there any proof?
    Further, even when Editors attempt to interfere with Kubo's work, he shouldn't let them. Simple as that. Bleach has an enormous fan community and commercially its been in a good spot since SS Arc, i imagine. So how come that he has no artistic freedom? He has all the leverage anyone could have, so why wouldn't he use it to do whatever he wants?

    Someone mentioned One Piece in this Thread and i don't actually wanna spend any time discussing it here.
    However, i want to clearly say that One Piece isn't just popular for nothing. It is by far (!!) one of the best stories ever told. Bleach currently, cannot even compare to OP's Quality. The Balance in story telling is almost perfect and the quality of the chapters is a peak, rarely reached by any manga or epic story. I won't even mention the originallity and cultural worth of it ...
    Saying something like "it's popular no matter how good or bad it is", is just petty talk. So far it is an absolute Force. It hasn't become like Dragonball Z or Bleach yet, and probably never will since Oda is smart and creative enough.
    Ever read Bakuman?Editors and Manga-ka are a team and no,Kubo has no artistic freedom.As long as the manga doesn't sell,the editors will do everything in order to change that.I don't know if you looked at the TOC(Table of Contents,which roughly reflects the popularity of a manga),but Bleach was veeery low during the fullbring arc,so the conlusion comes close that the editor forced Kubo to change the content in order to make Bleach more popular again.
    Most of the sudden and illogical developments find their roots there.

  8. #38
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    Someone mentioned One Piece in this Thread and i don't actually wanna spend any time discussing it here.
    However, i want to clearly say that One Piece isn't just popular for nothing. It is by far (!!) one of the best stories ever told. Bleach currently, cannot even compare to OP's Quality. The Balance in story telling is almost perfect and the quality of the chapters is a peak, rarely reached by any manga or epic story. I won't even mention the originallity and cultural worth of it ...
    Saying something like "it's popular no matter how good or bad it is", is just petty talk. So far it is an absolute Force. It hasn't become like Dragonball Z or Bleach yet, and probably never will since Oda is smart and creative enough.
    Firstly, One Piece isn't nowhere near one of the greatest stories ever told. Jeez...if there was a list I doubt it would make the top 1 million and I'm not exaggerating. Your statement encompasses everything that as ever tried to tell a story...games, movies, poems, art etc.

    In its genre Shonen One Piece is certainly good there. But once again I say it will never be what Dragonball (notice I'm referring to the manga) was. Dragonball defined the genre and made it so all these people: Kubo, The dude that writes Naruto, Oda etc can get work. Hell they all cite him (Akira) as a major influence and they all at times pay homage to him. Dragonball never tried to hide what it was, it was extremely straight forward. Every major arc there was a big bad...big bad enters, defeats heroes, heroes train...heroes return and beat big bad (variate every now and then). It wasn't like Bleach and Naruto that tried to come up with some big twist that would shock and amaze you, when most times a little exercise in common sense and you'd see it coming a mile away. Akira wanted badly to finish Dragonball and was basically forced to continue long after he wanted to stop. Death threats and the works, pffft if it was up to the fans at the time it would still be on going and still be by far the most popular manga ever.

    And One Piece is also nowhere as unique as you think it is. I could get into the nitty gritty of it but alot of the elements are borrowed from all over. There are a some original presentation of the abilities but nothing to set your house on fire.

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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    One Piece can go to hell, I'm using it as an example, because no matter how good another series is, or how bad a chapter may be, it will constantly rank on top, or at least better than 90% of the series ranked. Fun fact: One Piece is now bigger than DragonBall and Naruto COMBINED, and it's sales represent 2/5 of the anime and manga industry. Other series can't even dream of becoming that big, not even actual literary masterpieces, hell, all of Ozamu Tezuka's works put together barely top One Piece in popularity, and he is an actual genious and innovator.

    Back to actual important, less infuriating and controversial topics, Bleach is not in a position where Kubo has freedom over his work. Just as soon as the Arrancar arc ended, Bleach dropped from the top 5 to the bottom 10 in popularity. Recently it hit rock bottom at the bottom 2 and the editors most probably told him to either add some fanservice (Rukia's return was planned for the 10th aniversary, but the return of shinigami so soon wasn't) or get the fuck out of JUMP. You just have to reread this arc and see how it was building up for something big but as soon as the shinigami began fighting the Fullbring it all went to hell. Only Riruka, Tsukishima and Ginjo remain relevant, everything else was forced to leave, like Chad (He was the 32nd place in a popularity poll just after Soul Society arc). Everything that was supposed to happen didn't thanks to some asshole's intervention on the story.

  10. #40
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    This thread is going off topic. I want to address you here but maybe a mod can move it to a thread where it belongs.

    Quote Originally Posted by cracker View Post
    Firstly, One Piece isn't nowhere near one of the greatest stories ever told. Jeez...if there was a list I doubt it would make the top 1 million and I'm not exaggerating. Your statement encompasses everything that as ever tried to tell a story...games, movies, poems, art etc.
    Not really. Sure, if we look at it globally.
    However, please don't forget that it is still the number one selling manga in japan. When we take the number one selling story in japan as compared to the world..it is still one of the greatest. Clearly, op is popular, respected and loved for a reason.


    Quote Quote:
    In its genre Shonen One Piece is certainly good there. But once again I say it will never be what Dragonball (notice I'm referring to the manga) was. Dragonball defined the genre and made it so all these people: Kubo, The dude that writes Naruto, Oda etc can get work. Hell they all cite him (Akira) as a major influence and they all at times pay homage to him. Dragonball never tried to hide what it was, it was extremely straight forward.
    To be honest...not really, even dragonball's premise wasn't original. It was somewhat of an adaption of "Journey to the west". Being a chinese, I know very well how Journey to the west works and DB did borrow elements from that. DB might have helped define the genre and make some things cliche but he didn't made it so they can get work.
    Quote Quote:
    Every major arc there was a big bad...big bad enters, defeats heroes, heroes train...heroes return and beat big bad (variate every now and then).
    DB's plot is nothing to go crazy about, the first half of it maybe but the second half got repetitive and the constant use of plot devices makes it so obviously similar. In terms of story-telling , one piece does not lose to db.



    Quote Quote:
    It wasn't like Bleach and Naruto that tried to come up with some big twist that would shock and amaze you, when most times a little exercise in common sense and you'd see it coming a mile away.
    I agree, the thing about db is while every arc had one overhype villain that is insanely strong and ends with db cast taking care of him..
    You can never really expect what will happen in the process.

    Quote Quote:
    Akira wanted badly to finish Dragonball and was basically forced to continue long after he wanted to stop. Death threats and the works, pffft if it was up to the fans at the time it would still be on going and still be by far the most popular manga ever.
    A good manga knows when to end.
    By that time, db started running on its popularity and not really on what originally made it good. It strayed off far.
    Also, bleach is a good example. This arc for instance, kubo might have wanted to introduce something new but due to the editors, he's forced to bring the shinigamis back therefore we can also say that the Bleach now is somewhat running on its popularity.

    By the end of cell arc or even the start of it, the original db feel is nowhere to be found.
    It soon turned out to be constantly about powerups and more powerups.
    I really do not want to see Bleach take this turn.



    Quote Quote:
    And One Piece is also nowhere as unique as you think it is. I could get into the nitty gritty of it but alot of the elements are borrowed from all over. There are a some original presentation of the abilities but nothing to set your house on fire.
    One Piece is original because its experience is so much different than any other manga. Sure, the setting is "cliche" with a young boy setting out on an journey to search for a treasure but what really made it great and unique like others have said a thousand times before, is the journey.
    If you insist on bringing db to the discussion, at the time db reached the mark where op is, the journey has been lost and forgotten. The later parts of db and op are different things imo.

    I'm pretty sure the enies lobby and the war arc didn't set houses on fire but they made grown men reading cry.

  11. #41
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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    Quote Quote:
    his thread is going off topic. I want to address you here but maybe a mod can move it to a thread where it belongs.


    Not really. Sure, if we look at it globally.
    However, please don't forget that it is still the number one selling manga in japan. When we take the number one selling story in japan as compared to the world..it is still one of the greatest. Clearly, op is popular, respected and loved for a reason.
    Being popular does not equal being good....subpar things can be popular, not necessarily referring to One Piece just showing a general flaw in your logic. By your case Twilight is the best thing to ever to the fiction of vampires...let me share a secret, its not -___-


    Quote Quote:
    To be honest...not really, even dragonball's premise wasn't original. It was somewhat of an adaption of "Journey to the west". Being a chinese, I know very well how Journey to the west works and DB did borrow elements from that. DB might have helped define the genre and make some things cliche but he didn't made it so they can get work.

    DB's plot is nothing to go crazy about, the first half of it maybe but the second half got repetitive and the constant use of plot devices makes it so obviously similar. In terms of story-telling , one piece does not lose to db.
    Never said DB was original. It just never hid what it was and also it defined its genre. I remember hearing about Journey to the West reference.

    Quote Quote:
    One Piece is original because its experience is so much different than any other manga. Sure, the setting is "cliche" with a young boy setting out on an journey to search for a treasure but what really made it great and unique like others have said a thousand times before, is the journey.
    If you insist on bringing db to the discussion, at the time db reached the mark where op is, the journey has been lost and forgotten. The later parts of db and op are different things imo.

    I'm pretty sure the enies lobby and the war arc didn't set houses on fire but they made grown men reading cry.
    Meh, I don't get that feel from shonen anymore...way too much exposure. One Piece execution is different, so I guess the experience is somewhat different but at the core its still shonen riddled with all the cliches, homages, rehashes etc.

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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    I deleted my post so now you delete yours. This thread shouldn't become worse that it already is.

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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    the reason this arc hasn't been so enjoyable is Xcution haven't had a lot of backstory
    the only character that seems to have a decent backstory is yukio ( of couse he was defeated quickly)
    Jackie Tristan sort of ..., she had a lot of dialogue with Renji, so that's good

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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by hopeandlight View Post
    the reason this arc hasn't been so enjoyable is Xcution haven't had a lot of backstory
    the only character that seems to have a decent backstory is yukio ( of couse he was defeated quickly)
    Jackie Tristan sort of ..., she had a lot of dialogue with Renji, so that's good
    I agree to some extent. Yes, we did not get much of backstory of Fullbringers. Tuski and Ginjou still drew more attention. Yukio's brief backstory was enough considering the part he played in the arc.

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    Re: The Worst Arc in Bleach

    One Piece is so severely overrated.......and it's bored me since the Sabaody arc, which was over a hundred chapters ago, and my boredom with it has gotten much worse since we started the current arc. Personally, I think the reason it does so consistently well with fans is because Oda constantly follows the same pattern:
    1. SH's arrive at a new island
    2.new enemy appears with a dubious plan
    3. Luffy gets owned by new enemy/some kind of setback for SH crew happens
    4. something happens, somebody cries/screams
    5. Luffy comes back and beats the crap out of new enemy

    Oda always gives the fans the exact pattern that they want. He doesn't switch anything up like Kubo tried to do with the Fullbring arc, taking out all the shinigami, taking away Ichigo's shinigami powers and having it focus solely on what its like for Ichigo having a normal life without having any powers and interacting with completely new characters and getting a completely new power.

    However, Ginjo being revealed as an ex-substitute shinigami might help the Xcution plot....well it doesn't matter now though, since SS is here, everyone is content in Japan I would think. I was fine with SS and Ichigo owning, it made sense. Don't think it harmed the plot, though I'll be disappointed if Jackie isn't alive, want to know about her flashback. Giriko got trolled, but whatever, he was pretty quite and arrogant anyway.Tsukishima actually beating Byakuya would be a delicious surprise though, and Moe has made Fullbringers look like they have the capacity to be threatening.....and I have high expectations from Ginjo. He is a shinigami after all, so I don't think Kubo will troll him.

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