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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
Battle takes place where Aizen had his final battle with ichigo. Aizen has all the powers and abilities he displayed during his fight with ichigo which are basically all the abilities he had in his transcendental form. Yamamoto has all the techniques which he has shown before including bankai.
Well, on the subject of which transcendental form aizen has I was intentionally ambiguous on the matter. I can't really point to a link however I recall reading that the last databook said that aizen at some point started evolving however each evolution actually made him weaker. I think it said that the hollow like form was weaker than the butterfly form but I just can't confirm what exactly the facts are here. My idea with the thread was that people would have a place to discuss aizen at his strongest against the full might of yamamoto. The alternative would be to create a a thread for every form aizen had (cocoon, post cocoon, butterfly and hollowish) which seem impractical. So on the subject of which form of aizen to consider here just use whichever you believe to be the strongest one so far. I hope that makes sense to everyone.
Last edited by kkck; October 18, 2012 at 08:26 PM.
Does Aizen have immortality again and which form exactly, the monster hollow form or the butterfly form?
Lol Kkck, you should know better. Any form of Aizen besides base would annihilate Yamamoto in a fight.
Aizen would rape Yamamoto in all honesty
I want to know what form of Aizen exactly before I give my two cents. The thing is Aizen would definitely win more scenarios, the butterfly form and the monster form. But Yama could still hurt him, its completely feasible given what happened with Gin and again when Aizen attacked Ichigo right before FGT. Being transcended does not make you impervious to damage.
Last edited by cracker; October 18, 2012 at 03:45 PM.
Yeah, he said transcended Aizen. Aizen went through three transcended stages. The form, Gin, more or less killed that resulted in the evolution to the butterfly form and the monster hollow form after the butterfly form. Aizen should be stronger than Yama but the thing is...him transcending primarily meant that the limit he encountered as shinigami would be removed so he could experience a further growth of power. It's possible that as a transcended being, he could still be weaker than bankai Yama. And we know that simply being transcended does not make you impervious to damage from a lower level being. Gin was able to still injure him.
And even when Ichigo was significantly stronger than Aizen, he (Aizen) was still able to render one of his arms unable to fight/move with a blast. If Yama could get a hit in, he'd probably kill him.
In every battle in bleach, reiatsu is the most important factor. When a person has high captain level reiatsu & mastered reiatsu control, that person is instantly a beast. Abilities such as speed, power & strength are greatly amplified by how controlled & how powerful a persons reiatsu is.
The reason why Aizen got damaged by Gin is really simple because of his arrogance. He "purposely lowered his reiatsu" so that the humans(Ichigo's friends) he was playing with could witness & feel his power.
Read this page & understand this first:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-559-4/...apter-105.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-559-5/...apter-105.html Ichigo's reiatsu was significantly lower than Kenpachi that he himself got hurt just by swinging his sword at Kenpachi chest. He should have cut Kenpachi & give him a wound but the reiatsu that Kenpachi was spontaneously releashing was just far above Ichigo's level at the time. http://www.mangareader.net/94-559-7/...apter-105.html
If Aizen didn't lower his guard & Gin attacked, I can guarantee that Gin's bankai would be shattered upon impact, similarly to how the dangai train(a being, no doubt beyond nomal shinigami's reiatsu) got shattered upon collision with Aizen's reiatsu. http://www.mangareader.net/94-53161-...apter-407.html http://www.mangareader.net/94-53161-...apter-407.html
As for why Ichigo got damaged by Aizen? Well It's actually the same reason. http://www.mangareader.net/94-57322-...apter-419.html Ichigo literally stood there & let Aizen dragged him around like some trash until he himself felt insulted by his silly attempts to him out with such petty attacks http://www.mangareader.net/94-57322-...apter-419.html
If Ichigo wanted, he could have simply releashed a greater amount of reiatsu to prevent Aizen from doing any damaged to him.
If Reiatsu didn't matter in bleach, Barragan should be able to solo Yamamoto's bankai in a one on one fight because his ability(respira) is specifically designed to age anything it connects with.
Can we have some sort of rule banning MangaReader?
Anyways Yama should be able to cut/destroy Aizen a few times but obviously having the destructive capacity to hurt Aizen isn't enough to kill Aizen(since he can't die). Until Bach or another character shows something more Aizen is literally the most broken/hax character and had to be mega nerfed to be defeated. I would go out on a limb and say he is the most powerful character thus far in the manga. Yama loses..
This is how I view the whole thing:
In regards to hurting aizen I don't think it is actually impossible for a character to actually do it. Aizen does not have an indestructible body, his body is tridimensional and thus can in fact be affected by attacks. This is why it cracked while he fought urahara, ishin and yoruichi, it is also why gin was able to pierce it and also why ichigo physically cut it a number of times. Of course, aizen could indeed regenerate as much as he wanted which made the whole thing moot.
Now, as far as the orb healing him I think that actually stopped at some point. When the orb healed aizen it always appeared as if it cracked the body and repaired it. In appearance this was basically the same thing that happened during the cocoon stage. However after gin's attack at least things changed a decent bit. In appearance that is not quite the same as what we saw earlier. If anything that looks like actual high speed regeneration. Given this I would argue that at that point aizen had gained the ability to regenerate on his own rather than having the orb directly heal him in the same way as before.
Now, the defining aspect of this fight, as with almost any other, would the the issue of reiatsu. The manga has stated many times that in a clash of reiatsu the greater one would be the one to inflict damage on the weaker one. In this particular context aizen used the orb to evolve and acquire a particular type of reiatsu which was colossally strong and beyond even the perception of others. There are a few links worth mentioning here.
Those two links are important because they hint at the sheer importance of being able to feel aizen's reiatsu. Ishin basically confirms ichigo is able to feel aizen's reiatsu at that point. Now this:
That is the single must crucial explanation here of everything concerning the matter of transcendental reiatsu. It is a simple explanation for that matter. Ichigo being able to feel aizen's reiatsu means he was able to stand at at least the same place as aizen or higher. A transcendental reiatsu is basically something of a higher order, if you can't even perceive it then you can't properly oppose it. And it makes sense given what we saw. We saw ichigo stopping aizen's blade with his bare hands, we saw ichigo blowing away a level 90 kido with a wave of his sword and we ultimately saw him blowing a ring of a cero like thing with effortlessly with a wave of his sword. This because his power was something beyond aizen and from his perspective imperceptible.
Perhaps the proper comparison when fighting someone's whose reiatsu transcends yours is a blind and deaf person fighting against someone with a few extra senses. In a battle of reiatsu how do you clash with a reiatsu you can't feel or perceive at all? In simple terms you can't. You can't see it coming, you can't defend from it and you can't ultimately oppose it. If the comparison aizen made to dimensions on the matter if relevant then even the volume of the transcendental reiatsu in question can't be quantified in the same way as normal reiatsu as it would altogether exist and move in a few ways in which normal reiatsu does not.
So this takes us to a fight between yamamoto and aizen. Yamamoto is nothing but a standard shinigami. His reiatsu is by no means transcendental, yamamoto simply has precisely (and excuse the term) a fuckton of it. Still, it is simple ordinary shinigami reiatsu. Aizen in turn has in fact transcendental reiatsu. We saw him even destroy the kototsu which is something which should be physically impossible with ordinary reiatsu as the kototsu seems to act beyond ordinary physics of the world. The description gin gave on the kototsu is even more scary. It can't be affected by reiatsu, it is a being of reason. So aizen's power at that stage acted beyond the normal physics of the world altogether. In principle this means that aizen did something which yamamoto could never in his life do with the full might of his power.
So how would the fight turn when yamamoto's sheer reiatsu clashes with aizen? Given everything we have seen I just cannot fathom how yamamoto would be in anything but at an overwhelming disadvantage. If anything a fight between yamamoto would look remarkably the same as a fight between ichigo and aizen. Basically Aizen simply would wave yamamoto's reiatsu away and that is all there is to it. As long as Aizen keeps his guard up what we have seen would suggest yamamoto won't be able to properly hurt aizen. So for me the fights goes without a doubt for aizen here.
Aizen with hogyoku was immortal and Ichigo, even after using his strongest technique, failed to kill him. Ichigo outclassed Aizen in every conceivable way but all these efforts were futile because hogyoku was regenerating all these injuries (IIRC Aizen said hogyoku wouldn't let him die) and eventually Aizen would have outlasted Ichigo. Without hogyoku, it would have been an easy victory for Ichigo. I guess the reiatsu difference between Ichigo and Aizen at this point was similar to the reiatsu difference between Aizen and Yamamoto, so Aizen would have probably defeated Yamamoto with relative ease. As long as Aizen kept his guard up and fought seriously, he should have been able to win.
It's a fact that stronger reiatsu gives the advantage but I wonder if such an analogy works though. If shinigami were cars, their reiatsu would be the engine capacity. The car which has higher engine capacity is expected to win in a race but the engine technology and the driver are also important in the outcome. Yamamoto is the better driver with thousands of years of battle experience and his zanpakuto technology is so great that it can convert ordinary shinigami reiatsu into a heat as hot as the core of sun. Would Ichigo or Aizen survive if they were teleported to the sun? Is it still a matter of reiatsu or does reiatsu lose its meaning when it was converted into physical force?
When Ichigo blocked Aizen's blade with his bare hand, Aizen thought Ichigo's physical force momentarily exceeded his and he was in awe of his own power when he thought it was him who destroyed the mountain, it seems rules of physics still apply in Bleach (albeit on Bleach terms). Reiatsu makes the body of a shinigami harder and it lets the shinigami hit harder, in that sense stronger reiatsu overpowers the weak, because it can create stronger force and more resilient body. When you have abilities that can more than make up for the reiatsu difference (for example Nnoitra's hierro was the hardest), does it render the reiatsu difference moot?
Looking through this window, I'm curious how Aizen vs Yamamoto would turn out. Regardless of how strong (or, for that matter, weak) Yamamoto's reiatsu is, can Aizen's zanpakuto withstand 15 million degrees of heat? How would Bleach rules apply in this case? Just a food for thought.
Ichigo(dangai) is in the same boat as Aizen in the sense that he has maxed out all his fighting power. His reiatsu control is maxed out & His reiatsu itself is much stronger/potent.
So I get your point that If Yamamoto clashed with Aizen(base), Aizen would get destroyed not because Yamamoto's reiatsu is necessary stronger but because Yamamoto's zanpakuto is much more destructive.
Barragan's respira is a frightening ability(even more so than the core of the sun) because he simply ages anything. But even such an ability will fall short against people like Yamamoto because Barragan does not have the same level of reiatsu nor destructive power Yamamoto does.
Yamamoto's bankai is 15million degrees hot(man that's a messed up number XD) because of his reiatsu http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/508/4
Well, as far as yamamoto's heat the issue seems to be that it can be withstood with reiatsu. How many hundreds or thounsands of degrees does his shikai release? Not matter what temperature the heat should be enough to kill anyone, that is what happens when exposed to enough heat. Still, we have seen captains stand around his fire a number of times and plainly not die. Shunsui and kyoraku did not die in front of his shikai, aizen didn't either.... And on that matter, zanka no tachi evaporated all the water in SS including hyorinmaru's ice. Basically everything in SS was well above 100 degrees and the captains resisted it against all logic when in reality the portion of their bodies which is made out of water should have evaporated. Everyone in SS should have been mummified. Now, in regards to zanka no tachi west the situation should be specially grim against yamamoto. Not only the manga has shown that pretty much reiatsu can help against withstanding heat but there is the fact that the flame cloth around him is basically just extremely violent reiatsu which merely looks like flames. Basically aizen touching yamamoto's west results in a very literal clash of reiatsu. The heat itself would not matter, it is a matter of who has the superior reiatsu. If aizen's reiatsu is stronger than yamamoto's reiatsu then the flames will never touch aizen.
Well,tbh,I do expect Yama-jii to fall.Not without a fight,but he doesn't stand a chance against Aizen.
Though I am buzzed by something that could actually mean that Yama-jii COULD defeat Aizen post-coccon : does a weak transcendental reiatsu equal to an extremely strong reiatsu ? It all breaks down to this : Aizen's reiatsu had become transcendental,yet Ichigo was just playing with Aizen,meaning that Ichigo's reiatsu either was gone beyond transcendental state,either was that much,much,much more stronger and powerful than Aizen's.In which case Aizen's transcendental reiatsu was actually weak,as it was his first transformation and probably didn't have much control over it either.
Either case,it's fact that stronger reiatsu wins,although we don't know if the NATURE of the reiatsu matters.Meaning,that if Yama-jii has a stronger reiatsu than Aizen's transcendental reiatsu,then it would imply Yama-jii has a chance to win.If this is not the case,then transcendental reiatsu,no matter how weak it may be,is more powerful than any normal reiatsu and able to overpower any kind of normal reiatsu,no matter how strong.
I really don't give a crap about Aizen's Hogyoku modes. Yama's Bankai was far more impressive than FGT or Aizen's strongest form. I don't care what kind of dimensional being Aizen is, 15 million degrees of heat kills you. Yama can destroy something as big as Soul Society just from simply being in Bankai. Aizen's shikai doesn't even seem to be that effective against Yama honestly. Only Bach can fight Yama in shikai so far and have a fairly good chance at winning, thats what I think now as far as one-on one battle's go.