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Thread: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

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    Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    We have never seen one before, and frankly, we have zero knowledge on how they'd work... Thus this discussion

    We know that Ginjou is a substitute/agent shinigami, for this to happen, he has to be born outside Soul Society at the very least.
    But since he has Fullbring, it explains that he's indeed half human, half shinigami.

    I think we can assume that substitute shinigami's all have to be half shinigami or pure shinigami born outside SS, because there has likely been many, many, many strong humans through time, Quincy no less. Fullbringers should have appeared as long one can remember, they're created by hollows afterall. Yet only two of all history has received the substitute title.

    So, assuming Ginjou is half human, half shinigami, that would also make him a Vizard, like Ichigo. Not saying he's anywhere in the league of Ichigo, but the same type of being no less.

    Ichigo first started to loose control to his hollow when he got stronger and learned bankai etc. before this, his shinigami powers seemed to suppress his hollows dominance, until it grew too strong.

    What if the same happen to Ginjou...?
    He disappeared without warning, all of a sudden, and he's bound to have a hollow as well following this logic.
    Also we don't know if a fallen Vizard look human, the hollow side could have used it's strongest form to over power the shinigami side, so when unreleased they could look just as human as the shinigami dominated Vizard.

    This could also explain why Ginjou is as evil as he is, hollows are not "pure" evil, but followed by a strong "ego". Ginjou certainly classify, and the good sides we saw of him was thanks to Tsukishima's abilities, it doesn't mean he has a heart.

    Fullbring is the "perfect" cover for a fallen Vizard (hollow), he can fight while hiding his true identity. This would also explain why he doesn't shed his human body in front of Soul Society.

    The stronger the hollow, the more intelligent they are, also we don't know how much knowledge a Vizarded hollow retains, seemingly, Ichigo's hollow is very knowledgeable about everything Ichigo learns.
    So a fallen Vizard, could produce a very, very cunning/intellectual Vizard(hollow).

    No one had knowledge to help Ginjou anyway, perhaps Urahara was a captain of Soul Society at the time, perhaps he was still unknown in SS at the time... At the very least, he seemed to be alone and did not have fellow Vizards to help him out, and thus, he might have lost to his hollow eventually the same way Ichigo was about to.

    Just a theory, we'll see soon enough next chapter or next again what he truly is. But I got a feeling he's hiding something, and for me, all this would make sense

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez
    But since he has Fullbring, it explains that he's indeed half human, half shinigami.
    I'll take it that by half-human,half-shinigami you mean the fact that he has a real body and a shinigami body,that's why he received the badge.The badge is used to pull out the spirit out of humans,so if Ginjou was made a Shinigami Substitute it means that he was in the same position as Ichigo was : having a normal life,with humans but also killing Hollows when they appeared by using the badge.

    Having Fullbring is totally unrelated to Shinigamis,if Ginjou has a Fullbring it only means one thing : his mother was attacked by a Hollow prior to his birth.Because Fullbring basically means that tracesof the Hollow's reiatsu were embeded in the mother's body.I don't know WHY is it so assumed that a mother must be attacked by a Hollow.If a Hollow with enough reiatsu passes along humans the reiatsu will inevitably affect the humans(I'll make a refference here to what Aizen said : humans could not feel anything from Aizen,yet their body theirself is not able to withstand his pressure thus they die).This is a similar case : even though the mother can not feel reiatsu from Hollows,if a Hollow passes close enough to a mother,she will be affected by the reiatsu though she won't feel nor know anything.I mean,take a look at Yukio and the others,they too have Fullbring and they are not half-humans half-shinigamis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cez
    So, assuming Ginjou is half human, half shinigami, that would also make him a Vizard, like Ichigo. Not saying he's anywhere in the league of Ichigo, but the same type of being no less.
    .

    Well,I guess I understood wrong what you mean by half-human half-shinigami.By the word Vizard I take it you are reffering to half-hollow,half-shinigami,cause that what being a Vizard means : Shinigami that has a Hollow inside them.It's a huge assumption that Ginjou is a transcendental being like Ichigo,so I think that Ginjou is a pure Shinigami,one that only has a Zanpakutou.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez
    Ichigo first started to loose control to his hollow when he got stronger and learned bankai etc. before this, his shinigami powers seemed to suppress his hollows dominance, until it grew too strong.
    Well,Ichigo is a very special case,he achieved Shikai,Bankai in an extremely short time and this is why his powers were immature and incomplete;the Hollow was always a part of the Zanpakutou,yet the Hollow dominances only when Ichigo is on the verge of death(eg Byakuya fight,Ulqui fight,Kenpachi fight).

    As for the rest of your post,I kinda got lost.I personally think Ginjou is totally not hollow-ish,and it seems a bit unlikely as well,I mean this chapter when he used Ichigo's Fullbring,he did not turn into a Shinigami,he had no Zanpakutou,he's only relying on Fullbring.


    The only resemblance that Fullbring has to Hollows is the fact that they are born from the Hollow's reiatsu traces;in rest they are totally unrelated to Hollows,I mean just take a look at Riruka's FB,a doll house,how the hell does that relate to Hollows,I don't think there are any Hollows who play with dolls in Hueco Mundo.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    It's all fine to criticize, it wouldn't be a discussion without afterall

    If you got lost though, you should try re-read it again, the post is meant to make logic and connecting the dots from start to end, not from start to halfway

    Given all the knowledge we have in Bleach, it's fair to assume that it's very likely because Ichigo is human resulting in that he has a hollow side.
    It's been like this since early Bleach, any humans can easily become hollow if they don't get sended to Soul Society by a shinigami and develop a "wall" between hollow and shinigami in the process, which all Shinigami has.

    When Ichigo's chain of fate was cut off, he had to fight between hollow or shinigami for soul dominance, but unlike souls who has been sended to Soul Society, who looses the chain of fate completely, and thus the ability to become a hollow. Ichigo retained the ability to become a shinigami already without having to be sended to Soul Society, possibly, because he's of a strong shinigami family and not a normal human. This means he did not receive protection against his hollow, through the Soul Barrier, but overpowered his hollow instead which is untraditional.

    So if Ginjou indeed has Shinigami powers, it means his chain of fate has been cut off, be it through Soul Barrier and sended to Soul Society, or be it through gaining Shinigami powers in the world of the living and overpowering his hollow side.

    Problem is, I don't see him being a "substitute", if he really was sended to Soul Society through Soul Barrier, in fact, he'd be as much shinigami as any others in SS if this really is the case.
    That leaves the other option, he must have gained Shinigami powers by having his chain of fate cut off, and overpowering his hollow side through his family blood (half shinigami).
    The reason he should have a chain of fate to begin with, would be that he's born human.

    Also, please, don't view Ichigo as someone completely unique being, it's all fine if there are others like him, it doesn't make Ichigo look bad
    In fact, it's what made me view Bleach as HIGHLY unrealistic as a "story", that no "types" like Ichigo had appeared, but now seemingly, Ginjou smells to be similar in type.

    For Ginjou to be a full shinigami while also being a substitute seems impossible, unless 2 shinigami had a child in the living world, but even then, that child should apply under the laws of shinigami, and not that of the humans.

    How else would you explain him being a substitute Shinigami...?

    They can't do anything against Ginjou unless he causes a problem for the world, he's seemingly protected by the laws Rukia mentioned in the very first chapter of Bleach

    Also, when Ichigo did meet Hichigo the first time, Hichigo told Zangetsu to train Ichigo well, because that power would be his one day. The fact that Hichigo knows bankai on top of that, clarifies that Hicihgo learns what Ichigo learns.

    The stronger a hollow, the more intelligent it becomes, it's pretty safe to assume in my opinion, that whether one grows strong slow or fast like Ichigo, their hollow side would grow intellectually when their shinigami powers grow.

    As for the fullbring / doll house you mention, you gotta remember, Fullbringers retain their heart unlike hollows..

    Not trying to to protect the theory with claws, just that I completely disagree

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    I was under the impression Ichigo's Hollow-side came from Urahara slowly turning him into a Hollow when he tried to regain his powers. How human+Shinimagi = half-Hollow I don't understand.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
    I was under the impression Ichigo's Hollow-side came from Urahara slowly turning him into a Hollow when he tried to regain his powers. How human+Shinimagi = half-Hollow I don't understand.
    Let me rephrase it, I know this is a large post and time is pressures

    We know all humans are constantly at the risk of becoming hollows right..? Shinigami's are protected from becoming hollow.
    It's seemingly not the shinigami powers itself that makes one immune, but a shinigami technique, called Soul Barrier, which is placed on all souls in Soul Society, and it also transports a soul to Soul Society in the initiate process.

    If you took a dead soul, who still have the chain of fate, and brought the soul to Soul Society via the Dangai gate, that soul could in practice, still become a full hollow even if it resided in Soul Society, meaning it requires a Soul Barrier

    However, what if a soul that has not gotten a Soul Barrier becomes Shinigami, and thus overpowers the hollow side...? Then the "protection" is not placed, and thus the human who has both access to shinigami and hollow when dead, becomes a hybrid.

    This seems to be what happen to Ichigo, Urahara speeded up the hollowfication in order to rescue Rukia, had he not, the chain of fate could last months as explained by Rukia earlier.
    Seemingly, it requires a battle between hollow and shinigami for a soul to be able to choose which side to pick.

    That's how I saw it atleast

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez View Post
    Let me rephrase it, I know this is a large post and time is pressures

    We know all humans are constantly at the risk of becoming hollows right..? Shinigami's are protected from becoming hollow.
    It's seemingly not the shinigami powers itself that makes one immune, but a shinigami technique, called Soul Barrier, which is placed on all souls in Soul Society, and it also transports a soul to Soul Society in the initiate process.

    If you took a dead soul, who still have the chain of fate, and brought the soul to Soul Society via the Dangai gate, that soul could in practice, still become a full hollow even if it resided in Soul Society, meaning it requires a Soul Barrier

    However, what if a soul that has not gotten a Soul Barrier becomes Shinigami, and thus overpowers the hollow side...? Then the "protection" is not placed, and thus the human who has both access to shinigami and hollow when dead, becomes a hybrid.

    This seems to be what happen to Ichigo, Urahara speeded up the hollowfication in order to rescue Rukia, had he not, the chain of fate could last months as explained by Rukia earlier.
    Seemingly, it requires a battle between hollow and shinigami for a soul to be able to choose which side to pick.

    That's how I saw it atleast
    ...I think it's much more likely that Urahara's training did it to him.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Half-Human Half-Shinigami does not make you a Visored. Ichigo only became a Visored because, while in the Shattered Shaft, his soul chain rotted away just as he gained his Shinigami powers.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    Half-Human Half-Shinigami does not make you a Visored. Ichigo only became a Visored because, while in the Shattered Shaft, his soul chain rotted away just as he gained his Shinigami powers.
    I agree with this ^^^

    I have no idea were you came up with the assumption that if your half shinigami and half human you are automatically a Vizard.

    Thats just ridiculous.

    There are many things one must do inorder to become a Vizard like the method Urahara used on Ichigo or the method Aizen used on the current Vizards.

    You can NOT be born a Vizard.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    Half-Human Half-Shinigami does not make you a Visored. Ichigo only became a Visored because, while in the Shattered Shaft, his soul chain rotted away just as he gained his Shinigami powers.
    Urahara explained it was to speed up the process, I honestly don't see where you get this fact from...?
    It's a heavy assumption that it's because of what Urahara did, when he even explained it was to speed up the process.
    We have never catched Urahara in a lie, I doubt a minor detail like this would be a lie, and even if he should have twisted the truth, it would still be a huge and baseless assumption when the alternative is explainable.

    Where is all the logic gone? :/

    ---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    I agree with this ^^^

    I have no idea were you came up with the assumption that if your half shinigami and half human you are automatically a Vizard.

    Thats just ridiculous.

    There are many things one must do inorder to become a Vizard like the method Urahara used on Ichigo or the method Aizen used on the current Vizards.

    You can NOT be born a Vizard.
    Not really interested in baseless assumptions based on emotions, THAT is ridiculous
    If you disagree, say it's because you feel so, or bring facts... All you do is call it ridiculous, which is pretty unfair.
    Just say you don't feel for it, instead of generalizing it as if everyone thinks like you

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez View Post
    Urahara explained it was to speed up the process, I honestly don't see where you get this fact from...?
    It's a heavy assumption that it's because of what Urahara did, when he even explained it was to speed up the process.
    We have never catched Urahara in a lie, I doubt a minor detail like this would be a lie, and even if he should have twisted the truth, it would still be a huge and baseless assumption when the alternative is explainable.

    Where is all the logic gone? :/

    ---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------



    Not really interested in baseless assumptions based on emotions, THAT is ridiculous
    If you disagree, say it's because you feel so, or bring facts... All you do is call it ridiculous, which is pretty unfair.
    Just say you don't feel for it, instead of generalizing it as if everyone thinks like you
    How is my post a baseless assumption?

    And based on emotions lol?

    Last I checked the manga was on my side.

    No where in the manga does it say that if your half humann and half Shinigami you are automatically a Vizard.

    And if so please post it right here and right now.

    Otherwise it is YOU who who is making the baseless assumptions here dude.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    How is my post a baseless assumption?

    And based on emotions lol?

    Last I checked the manga was on my side.

    No where in the manga does it say that if your half humann and half Shinigami you are automatically a Vizard.

    And if so please post it right here and right now.

    Otherwise it is YOU who who is making the baseless assumptions here dude.
    Just quit it already, I made it clear it was a theory, I made clear what details was assumptions, but I also chained them together trying to make logic out of them, that is what is called a theory. If I had rocket science proof behind my words, I'd call it fact, but why didn't I...?
    Maybe because I did not "claim" it to be true, honestly, I don't think you even read the whole think

    All you do is coming and calling it ridiculous. You're just looking for a fight, that's all there is to it. You say you have the manga on your side, but let me ask you, where in the manga exactly does it say that Ichigo is a Vizard because of what Urahara did.

    You change my words and claim I say facts, when I do not, and then you say your own words are facts... that's why it's emotional bashing.

    Lets just stop it here, there really is no point

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez View Post
    Just quit it already, I made it clear it was a theory, I made clear what details was assumptions, but I also chained them together trying to make logic out of them, that is what is called a theory. If I had rocket science proof behind my words, I'd call it fact, but why didn't I...?
    Maybe because I did not "claim" it to be true, honestly, I don't think you even read the whole think

    All you do is coming and calling it ridiculous. You're just looking for a fight, that's all there is to it. You say you have the manga on your side, but let me ask you, where in the manga exactly does it say that Ichigo is a Vizard because of what Urahara did.

    You change my words and claim I say facts, when I do not, and then you say your own words are facts... that's why it's emotional bashing.

    Lets just stop it here, there really is no point
    Its pretty clear that you do not know what flaming and bashing are.

    Because I have not flamed nor bashed you in the slightest.

    I only disagreed with your theory thats all.

    And where in the manga does it say Ichigo became a Vizard because of Urahara?

    I think the actions speak in louder then words in this manga.

    Ichigo was not shown to have ANY type of hollow powers untill the ordeal with Urahara.

    Afterwards the mask started to appear and protect him and his hollow side started to emerge.

    Fact is that there is not concrete evidence to even support your theory that being half human and half shinigami played a major role in Ichigo becoming a hollow.

    last I checked the Vizards are all full bloodied shinigami who just so happened to become Vizards through a certain method.

    So please stop playing the victim here dude.

    No one is attacking or bashing you here.
    Last edited by BaddAzzKenpachi74; August 28, 2011 at 02:45 PM.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    These are still not facts as you claim, it's still assumptions based on your thoughts when you read the manga. I still stand by what I said, don't just go around and be rude calling it ridiculous because you think othervice, please respect theories, it's a theory for a reason.
    I never said it was flaming, but certainly it's bashing

    I'm totally fine with you disagree, hey, no hard feelings man.
    I'm not playing victim either, but a little tired of all the negativeness from this, I'd like a discussion on why the theory is not acceptable, not to discuss why it's ridiculous in your opinion

    Not answering you again, so just stop it. If you really want the last word on it instead of apologizing, be my guest.

    Granted I should have ignored you in the first place, I should have known better, I admit that. If anything good came out of this, it'd be that I'll learn to ignore people only looking for a fight

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Well I've searched a bit through the manga and read several pages,came to the following conclusion:


    Souls that have their Chain of Fate broken will inevitably become Hollows,there is no way known to block this process.As we all know,the chain basically eats itself until it reaches the chest of the soul(or better said Plus).Usually,this takes months or years and the soul will become a Hollow.


    Urahara used a special gas when training Ichigo to rebecome a Shinigami so that the process of erosion would not take years,only 72 hours.During this time Ichigo was supposed to become a Shinigami before the chain reaches his chest and he turns into a Hollow.Prior to this moment there was no mention/sign/information about Hollows inside Shinigami(Visoreds).However,Ichigo had the potential to turn into a Shinigami,he himself had deep inside him his Zanpakutou,a part of his soul basically.That's why he stood a chance of becoming a Shinigami even though cutting his chain of fate was supposed to make him a Hollow.Souls that lose their chain of fate and have no Shinigami powers become Hollows.This is why I believe that it is a wrong assumption that half-shinigami,half-humans are born with the Hollow inside them,if Ichigo had used another method to become a Shinigami then he wouldn't have had the hollow inside him.


    However,Ichigo was unable to become a Shinigami prior to his chain of fate reaching his chest.He started turning into a Hollow,basically Ichigo was no longer Ichigo,he was becoming a Full Hollow.Yet at that very moment he entered his inner world and met Zangetsu and thus his Shinigami powers.This produced an error in the natural flow of Enroachment(this is how the process of having your soul of chain cut and turning into a Hollow is called).Ichigo was becoming a Hollow and everything was natural,however Ichigo at the same time found his Shinigami powers and turned into a Shinigami.However,he was already becoming a Hollow,but that Hollow was supressed by Ichigo's Shinigami powers and naturally became a part of Ichigo.That's why Ichigo is both a Hollow and a Shinigami.


    In the logic above,there is no mention of half-human,half-shinigami mention,basically because it is no relation to the potential of becoming a Visored.Shinji,Hiyori and all the other Visoreds,they were pure Shinigami,Aizen used the Hogyouku and whatever method to implant a Hollow inside them and that's what turned them into Visoreds,because the Hollow implanted or whatever happened became a part of their soul by subduing the Hollow inside the inner world.


    Being both a human and a shinigami is not related to being a Visored,Ichigo became a Visored because his chain of fate rotted away and was turning into a hollow and at the same time as becoming a hollow he become a shinigami,and the hollow became part of him.I really do not see how being half-human,half-shinigami related in anything to Visoreds,'cause practically all the Visoreds shown until now(including Ichigo)were artificially made Visoreds(either by Aizen in case of Shinji and the others,either because of an anomaly in case of Ichigo).


    If Ichigo had gotten his Shinigami powers before his chain of fate had reached his chest then he would not have his hollow.


    I think that Ginjou is not a Visored basically because until now there has been no information that such a thing can happen normally,I mean Shinji and others were made Visoreds by Aizen,Ichigo turns into a Hollow and at the same time he finds his Shinigami powers and becomes a Shinigami,to me it seems that being a Visored is a very special case.

    edit : though it's fanfic site,it basically explains what happened in the manga,it narrates the manga so take a look here :
    http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Encroachment#Encroachment
    Last edited by g0dzax; August 28, 2011 at 03:33 PM.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Urahara put him in the shaft and told him if he couldn't awaken his inner Shinigami powers he would become a Hollow. His chain rotted completely and his inner world fell apart just as he gained his his Shinigami powers. He was literally in the state between becoming a Hollow and becoming a Shinigami--thus, Visored. The one making a baseless assumption is you. It has never been stated in the manga that a half-human half-shinigami person is a Visored.

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