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Thread: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    Urahara put him in the shaft and told him if he couldn't awaken his inner Shinigami powers he would become a Hollow. His chain rotted completely and his inner world fell apart just as he gained his his Shinigami powers. He was literally in the state between becoming a Hollow and becoming a Shinigami--thus, Visored. The one making a baseless assumption is you. It has never been stated in the manga that a half-human half-shinigami person is a Visored.
    Thank you.

    I honestly can not see how people can not rap their heads around something so obvious.

    There is a difference between my assumptions and your theories Cez.

    And that difference is that the manga actually helps support my assumption while the opposite applies to yours.

    That is in my opinion of course.

    Nothing in the manga suggests or even hints at what your trying to say.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    Urahara put him in the shaft and told him if he couldn't awaken his inner Shinigami powers he would become a Hollow. His chain rotted completely and his inner world fell apart just as he gained his his Shinigami powers. He was literally in the state between becoming a Hollow and becoming a Shinigami--thus, Visored. The one making a baseless assumption is you. It has never been stated in the manga that a half-human half-shinigami person is a Visored.
    Come on, it's a theory, why do people get angry about it..?
    It's also a baseless theory to say he became a Vizard the way he did, it's equally baseless. I just make a theory on an alternative idea from the mainstream, what's wrong in that...? I don't know why some people feel the urge to be rude.

    I respect g0dzax because he actually came with a constructive theory against mine and put effort into it, instead of just saying it's wrong in a rude way.

    Oh well, I'll take it head on, just let all your emotions out

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez View Post
    Come on, it's a theory, why do people get angry about it..?
    And why are you so sensitive?

    Just because someone disagrees with your theory does not mean they are bashing or attacking you.

    It also does not mean that they are angry.

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  4. #19
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    What I said is not baseless because it's what was said in the manga.

  5. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    What I said is not baseless because it's what was said in the manga.
    Exactly.

    Lets recap what was SHOWN in the manga.

    1.Ichigo was shown with NO HOLLOW POWERS before the ordeal to get his shinigami power with the help of Urahara.

    2.AFTER the ordeal Ichigo is shown to have hollow powers.

    Its really simple logic here that proves my point that Ichigo only recieved his hollow powers because of what happened during the process of getting his shinigami powers back.

    Now please explain how exactly my comments regarding this has been baseless.

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  6. #21
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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    What I said is not baseless because it's what was said in the manga.
    Link please then, and I respect constructive criticism, so if you can prove it as manga fact, then I'll be listening to you and agree with you.

  7. #22
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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez View Post
    Link please then, and I respect constructive criticism, so if you can prove it as manga fact, then I'll be listening to you and agree with you.
    You honestly should not even need any links.

    That is if you have read the manga that is.

    Like I said the first half of the story Ichigo is shown with no hollow powers at all.

    After the ordeal with Urahara he is shown with hollow powers.

    Pretty simple logic being laid out here dude.

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  8. #23
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/61/13 Urahara tells him what happens if his chain rots.
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/61/14 Tells him that shattered shaft will make him a shinigami, as that stops him from becoming a Hollow.
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/62/24 Ichigo fails and begins to Hollowfy.
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/63/11 + http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/63/12 Zangetsu tells him if he doesn't get his powers he becomes a full Hollow.
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/63/17 Shinigami powers attained, stopping full hollowfication but leaving the mask.

    Thus, Visored.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/61/13 Urahara tells him what happens if his chain rots.
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/61/14 Tells him that shattered shaft will make him a shinigami, as that stops him from becoming a Hollow.
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/62/24 Ichigo fails and begins to Hollowfy.
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/63/11 + http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/63/12 Zangetsu tells him if he doesn't get his powers he becomes a full Hollow.
    http://manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/63/17 Shinigami powers attained, stopping full hollowfication but leaving the mask.

    Thus, Visored.
    Sure, but my theory also include all that.
    What I disagree with is that the shaft is what makes him a hollow, basically, it only speeded the whole thing up.
    I also said in my theory that his shinigami powers in the shaft overpowered his hollow powers, thus Vizard, the same you linked.

    Where does it say that the shaft is actually making him a hollow...? This is what I'm looking for.

    I'd be really interested in it no matter the outcome, I'm no die hard supported of my own theory, I merely find it likely until proved othervice.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    I never said the shaft made him a Hollow. The shaft speeds it up and he needs to become a Shinigami to get out. He had no natural hollow powers, but he became a Hollow. If you read the chapter of the last link I posted, you see him in near full Hollow form just as he pulls out Zangetsu, awakening his Shinigami powers AFTER becoming partially Hollow. Shinigami+Hollow=Visored. It's that simple.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    I never said the shaft made him a Hollow. The shaft speeds it up and he needs to become a Shinigami to get out. He had no natural hollow powers, but he became a Hollow. If you read the chapter of the last link I posted, you see him in near full Hollow form just as he pulls out Zangetsu, awakening his Shinigami powers AFTER becoming partially Hollow. Shinigami+Hollow=Visored. It's that simple.
    Then why are you disagreeing with me? It's basically what is said in my theory...

    Although, no one knows if it was because he had started to become a hollow when his shinigami powers kicked in, that is an assumption just as good as mine.

    I mean, we can't really tell which is true, it was never really clarified. I accept your theory though, it's indeed not baseless, both is build on logic, but none clarified.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    What's clarified, however, is that being half-human and half-shinigami by itself does not make you a Visored or give you Hollow powers.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    What's clarified, however, is that being half-human and half-shinigami by itself does not make you a Visored or give you Hollow powers.
    I don't see any logic in that though, are you sure you're not referring to an ancient assumption in Bleach..?
    Where is it stated, where is the opposite stated..? where is stated to make this theory illogical..?

    Just because Ichigo's hollow powers came first, and his shinigami powers came second, doesn't make Ichigo a Vizard, it's logic, granted yes, but no where is it said that this is actually the case, it was never clarified.

  16. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Well,since it is a theory and just because up until this point there was no mention of this thing(half-human,half-shinigami means you are a visoreds)then by all means it doesn't mean it is impossible for it to be valid.We know nothing about this,and this might be the reason why we are not agreeing with this theory.For all we know,something like this(this theory being valid) might happen in the future(in Bleachverse).Just because we know nothing regarding this fact(theory),it doesn't mean it's automatically false.


    But again,this chapter Ginjou showed that he doesn't have Shinigami powers,he didn't turn into a Shinigami and the only thing Hollowish about him is Ichigo's stolen Fullbring,so based on what we've seen,it might mean that Ginjou no longer has Shinigami powers and is now searching for a way to restore his own powers.

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    Re: Fallen Vizards (Ginjou)

    Quote Originally Posted by g0dzax View Post
    Well,since it is a theory and just because up until this point there was no mention of this thing(half-human,half-shinigami means you are a visoreds)then by all means it doesn't mean it is impossible for it to be valid.We know nothing about this,and this might be the reason why we are not agreeing with this theory.For all we know,something like this(this theory being valid) might happen in the future(in Bleachverse).Just because we know nothing regarding this fact(theory),it doesn't mean it's automatically false.


    But again,this chapter Ginjou showed that he doesn't have Shinigami powers,he didn't turn into a Shinigami and the only thing Hollowish about him is Ichigo's stolen Fullbring,so based on what we've seen,it might mean that Ginjou no longer has Shinigami powers and is now searching for a way to restore his own powers.
    A lovely way to view things, completely agree with you.
    Just a bit annoying when some people are rude, I should get better to ignore them.
    Not coming with the facts and keep saying that something is manga fact without giving the correct proof, seeming to not even have read much of my theory and try to make sense out of it and calling it ridiculous to boot is stretching it.
    Still need the exact manga fact I got accused for violating

    The whole point with theories isn't to go tell the one with the theory to f**k off because it's stupid in their eyes, or to prove something is correct, but to discuss and get something to think about! Not having an open mind and atleast try to understand other people in arguments? Such people should stay away from theories to begin with.

    I'm all fine with people disagreeing though, I wouldn't have posted it here if I didn't expect to see other theories or facts against it, doing it for the discussion and possibly find some leads and clues for the future

    I got a big mouth, I always speak my opinion, granted, it gives trouble when I tell people straight instead of ignoring them as most people would do



    I agree that Ginjou possibly might have lost his spirit powers, that is a good possible theory too, although we don't know yet, it's a possible outcome.
    I wonder how if that is the case though.. Rukia said that shinigami powers wells up from deep within, one might assume that it's impossible to remove shinigami/hollow powers unlike fullbring, but you can maybe sterilize shinigami/hollow powers though..

    We have seen Byakuya and Ishida cut away shinigami powers for good apparently. Zangetsu confirmed this if I remember correctly, said something along the lines that Byakuya was careless and didn't realize that Ichigo had his own shinigami powers.. So he cut Ichigo's soul differently and only removed the powers Ichigo had from Rukia..
    So there are more ways to violate a soul... Great More to the mystery

    So how would Ginjou have lost his powers...? and by who..?
    Officially Soul Society saw him as missing, so if someone removed his powers, who would it be..?
    Would one even be able to use fullbring if spirit powers were cut away...? soul link etc.. databooks are not always accurate, but I wonder if they contain some info on this

    Just given these 2 issues, you seemingly can't remove shinigami powers permanently, and fullbring would have to be fuel'ed by reatsu even though it's still a mystery..

    If these two are correct, how exactly would it come together..? Can you truly destroy a soul link only to affect shinigami powers...?

    Maybe Kubo will reveal something new with Ginjou, but Ginjou not having shinigami powers is also something that needs a detailed explanation.. So far we're missing crucial facts no matter what theory we come up with, I wonder if this is Kubo's intention, seems a bit too much of a coincidence..

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