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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
(I really tried to make this short i swear ^^)
I re-read the old chapters today and my opinions have changed somewhat. Cassandra isn't actually stated to be at the strength of a number 5 warrior. what is said in the narrative in chapter 117 is not that Cassandra is only as powerful as a number 5 warrior. it very specifically says that during training her sword technique did not match up to the number 5 of her own generation, Elizabeth from who Roxanne had stolen techniques from. though Roxanne later compares her again as matching up to an average number 5 without the dust eater, i find this suspect too, considering that the person she compared Cassandra too was not a regular number 5 but rather Roxanne herself when she was ranked 5. Though Roxy held the number 5 her abilities no doubt surpassed an average number five. its not ti dissimilar to Teresa/Priscilla. Cassandra as no.1 never showed her full strength to Roxanne, and Roxanne herself was gifted well beyond the number she held at the time.
Somehow this quote has become misread as Cassandra being only as powerful a standard number 5 Claymore. Roxanne however is a technique hunter looking for beautiful sword techniques. Cassandra's physical attributes such as her strength, speed, endurance, and Yoki held no interest. She was only ever interest in techniques and nothing more. Cassandra being ranked with the strongest Claymores says one ore more of these non-technique attributes was no. 1 level. Remember, Roxy's was thinking of only what she could steal, not the claymores strength. She'd steal from a weaker Claymore or a stronger one, it wouldn't matter its about the technique, nothing more.Originally Posted by from the Claymore manga
Roxanne is disinterested in crude and formless fighting abilities. for example if Cassandra's secret had been inflating her muscles using Yoki like Undine it would have gotten the same reaction as the Dust eater out of Roxanne.. It took me a bit of time to realize but there is something Roxy was looking at in techniques and it's not 'beauty' but rather cleanness.
The blade of Evil technique allowed a low ranking warrior to come out of battle relatively unscathed against opponents of superior power, who by all rights should have ripped her apart.
Yoki perception abilities have been shown to greatly increase a Claymores ability to avoid harm. the better the reader the more beautiful they are as they are less damaged (or not damaged at all) during battle
Having excellent sword technique allows a Claymore to kill enemies more cleanly and quickly further allowing them to never lose there beauty in battle.
Roxy isn't actually hunting for beautiful techniques; she's combining into herself techniques that allow her to remain beautiful. This is why she was obsessed with Cassandra.
to someone like Roxanne, this technique that allowed Cassandra to come out of battle completely immaculate was like a treasure. It must have been quite a shock for someone with such a high expectation to see a technique as bizarre and against her concept of beauty as the Dust eater. such an ability was not something she could show to others and be considered beautiful, despite how effective it was in combat. So she hated the ability and never copied it.Originally Posted by from the Claymore manga
Cassandra was not beautiful in Roxanne's eyes and was completely unworthy of holding the title of number one over her. She had to die in an unsightly way, showing her ugliness to everyone, so that all that judged them in the future knew Roxanne was more beautiful. As an added bonus, using other warriors to weaken Cassandra made sure that Roxy could finish Cassandra off beautifully, killing the rebelling number one Claymore in a single blow without risking even taking a scratch.
Cassandra's only real issue is that she sucked at fighting like a claymore. This explains why she struggles so much against Rachael, Audrey and Nina all at once. Her actual sword fighting isn't good enough to defeat against three single digit Claymores, one of which who was using her specialize technique. The dust eater for Cassandra is a technique that basically eliminated and surpassed the differences in the lack of skill between herself and her opponent. its an ingenious sort of skill, possibly one of the best. However i think the real reason she was number one has nothing to do with Roxanne's analysis, She doesn't decide what makes a number one worthy, the Organization does. The real reason was stated in chapter 113
We all know that in fact the point of her exceeding her Yoki limit isn't true at all, rather she was simply enraged by the death of her friend and fighting on rage. We also know that aside from the visible cutting attacks, she also had several limbs removed and took a head blow from the back end of Roxanne's sword. Yet through all this is appears that she was still alive, dying yes but still alive. If there is a trait that made her one of the strongest number one in the eyes of the organization it was probably this ridiculous endurance.Originally Posted by from the Claymore manga
Roxanne is mostly likely the better warrior (after years of assimilation) of the two but Cass certainly isn't weak and never once has it stated that she is.
Order of power as Claymores: Roxanne>Cassandra>Hysteria
Order of power as AB's: Roxanne-Cassandra-Hysteria (no winner, minor differences)
Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 19, 2011 at 08:27 PM. Reason: couldn't get it any shorter ><
No, it very specifically says that Cassandra herself did not match up to the Number 5's technique. It wasn't just her own sword technique, it was her power as a claymore that couldn't stand up to Elizabeth's technique.Originally Posted by SaphG1
We don't have any evidence of that. Had Roxanne been stronger than a rank 5 then, like Priscilla and Teresa, she would have been elevated above that rank and the number 4, 3, or 2 would have been demoted. And if she compared her to a number 5 again, that's very solid proof from Yagi that w/o Dust Eater Cassandra is only as powerful as a rank ~5.Originally Posted by SaphG1
Or that her ability was uncontested because of her prowess fighting Awakeneds. As seen with Noel and Priscilla, knowing that their opponent can take out large and powerful numbers of Yoma on their own is enough to assert their supremacy.Originally Posted by SaphG1
I disagree. The Blade of Evil was known to be crude, formless and ugly by all Claymores. Roxanne knew this full-well. She never said, IIRC, she found the technique beatiful. She just envied the fact it let a much lower ranked warrior fight on par with single-digit and other higher tier warriors. Similar things can be said about Neideen, losing an eye certainly wasn't pretty and Roxanne never said it was. Nor is sensing Yoki "beautiful" either, it's just what it is. Her techniques and obsession have nothing to do with beauty. She just wants what she wants and she's obsessed with Cassandra because she can't stand to see someone who she was once close with to be so weak. It disgusts her and she wants to squash it because she hates it. Hence her namesake.Originally Posted by SaphG1
You really can't say that until we see them in action.Originally Posted by SaphG1
I disagree. Hysteria's base stats as a Claymore are leaps and bounds ahead of what Cassandra's are. Could Cassandra kill Hysteria though? Possibly. But only because of the element of surprise. If Hysteria knew about the Dust Eater, the absolutely tremendous gulf separating their speeds would surely give Hysteria the kill.Originally Posted by SaphG1
Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 19, 2011 at 08:23 PM.
This was one of the most complete chapters that I read lately, without exaggeration or fanaticism;
Of course that is given to the fact that my girl Miria is shining with Hystebeauty (Marry Me, lol), despite Cassie and Rox, who are by far the best recent creation not only of all manga that I follow (not many, but so what, lol.).
The Phantom girl is holding up very well, and the similarity between her and Clare is very clear. Both are extremely impulsive, but they try to appear calm and cold, and we've already seen that these masks have fallen long ago, however, they show a very good sense of self control in a half awakened state. I know Clare couldn’t control her blades after killing Rigardo, but that’s it, when she fought him, she could, same goes for my girl Miria, for now, lol.
I’m really enjoying this fight with my new crush Hystediva, by the way, has anyone realized that her name contrasts her fighting style and her own personality? Most beautiful thing...
Yagi, you bit*, do not forget her flashback, don’t you dare to forget it and do one as good as these others! And as stated earlier, despite the apparent difficulty, the ex-# 1 is not even yellow-eyed yet, and Miria is sweating blood to match her…
Well, Rox loves to steal the entire spotlight when she appears. Annoying little bitch that I love and hate, I don’t even remember when I felt something like that for a girl. It’s true tha I only get myself some crazy girls, but Rox is too much for me to handle, lol.
This sadistic tempered with the highest irony is odd, rare and a beautiful thing to see. It is very hard to create a character like that, so intense and so complete. Seriously, for the role she plays, she is perfect.
I think her nickname is the most appropriate of the latest matches so far. And the name Roxanne always reminds me of the “The Police” song, I'm pretty sure that Yagi was kind of inspired by this song or by the character that Sting was inspired to create it. It's all too perfect, even Roxanne looks combines with the music.
Seriously, I may be high by considering it, but I really think that Claymore Rox was slightly inspired by this song or the piece that inspired the music, who knows them can't deny the contrasting resemblance between them.
I'm enjoying this woman. So crazy, completely insane… The way I like, lol.
And finally recognized by those who despised her in the previous chapters is Cassie, cutting everything ahead and also being cut.
I also find it remarkable how Yagi chose her name and countered with her personality. Cassandra’s name has the symbolism of protecting humanity, and we saw that her technique was created precisely to protect her and her friends, and by doing that she became feared and alone... Almost like Cassandra in Greek Mythology who pushed away people because of her special “ability”. Anyway, is told that in mythology, Cassandra was isolated and ridiculed many times. Isn’t this a lovely coincidence too?
Aah, how I wanted to have the gift to do things in my story as if it were all one big coincidence.
We have seen that Cass is the ugly duckling, shy, awkward and lonely. So cute, so kawaii. What happened to her was so, so unfair…
I loved it. I was sorry for her with a heart ache. All she wanted was to have one friend, talk to somebody, to love and be loved, and I'm not talking about it with wicked ideas, lol.
And it was precisely Roxanne, “the prostitute”, who fuc*d the protector’s life and made her lost the line, losing her own humanity. I mean, I think she only lost the “title protector” because she thrown herself so deep in anger… And that is a extremely sentimental human thing to do, I guess…
Ok, I'm losing focus here, and talking too much about nothing. But I can’t stop until I comment about page 29, where Cassie remembers and pronounces syllabically (Does this word even exists? Lol) with hatred and pain Roxanne’s name.
I reread now and gave me that nice chill on my back, lol.
Rachel is all powerless, Nina is only the stump, and Audrey, besides being the stump, is under the woman who jumped into the madness of revenge... I doubt they die, but they’re in a very tense situation. I'm really loving it, lol.
Well, awesome chapter. Although this phase is some kind of softcore, where Yagi is not much in the mood to kill many people, he can be insanely brutal with just a few chapters.
even Roxanne see's this technique as effective against both warriors and awakened beings, so it has more the a single prowess.Quote:
Its not simply about beautiful techniques for Roxy, if a technique were beautiful but using it made her come out of battle bloody and dirty she wouldn't use it, no matter how pretty it looked, because she herself would not be beautiful. proof point: she hates the dust eater, even though if she used it she could come out of battle untouched.Quote:
of course these are all opinions, take them as you will
also in terms of speed, I want to note the beginning 10 or so pages of 118. Cassandra as low to the ground as she can get, Audrey attacks using a vertical slash with speed and power enough to smash the stone ground. Cassandra however is both fast enough and flexible enough to not only avoid the blow but rapidly change the swinging height so that she swings above Audrey (mind this is a number three, supposedly faster and more powerful then a number five) and take of her arm with a stroke so seamless that it can barely be detected as happening.
Rachel then attacks Cassandra who dives exceptionally low and sweeps off her remaining leg. Note here that this proves that the dust eater is not a stationary attack, like Neo dodging bullets in the matrix but a moving ever changing offensive skill. immediately Cassandra swings into a backwards falling position, then at the point of extreme lowness, vanishes in the blink of an eye and removes Rachel's arm with not one, but TWO strokes of a blade, so quickly that Rachel can't even follow. she rises up to full height and then swings back around, swooping like a hawk and hacks off the second arm with shocking speed
From this fall, she drops low again, and flashes over to Audrey who is a good distance away and double slices another arm before she can react. Then with a final swing removes both of Nina's arms faster then she can see. all these three single digit claymores can do is stand shock faced as they are sliced to ribbons at high speed. the final cell shows Cassandra, basically done with her movements while limbs and body part are STILL IN THE AIR around her. She basically turned into a blender and moving just as quickly. because the frames detailing the fight are set to so each individual movement can be seen, it seems as if these movements are meant to be slow enough to be followed but that is for the readers sake alone. Cassandra tore apart no 3 Audrey, no.5 Rachel and no. 9 Nina in a time frame of seconds not minutes.
This is a feat well beyond a common number five, Rachel herself obviously can't do it or even follow it. Cassandra isn't the slow in terms of speed, she just uses that insane speed directed at her opponents from every possible angle. with that in mind it again reaffirms that Roxanne used other Claymores to weaken Cassandra so that she risked no chance of personal injury. Roxanne back then would have been no match for this technique, whether she saw it before or not, once your inside the range of the dust eater, you are being attacked from all sides at ridiculous angles forcing you to rely solely on your reaction time against movements you can't even see most the time. if Cass shredded three high ranking Claymore that quickly, imagine being the single thing she's focusing on with all that speed and prowess. Roxy's countermeasure was to weaken Cassandra to the point where she wouldn't have the mobility necessary to use the dust eater at full power, otherwise she'd have been screwed, plain and simple.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 20, 2011 at 01:12 AM. Reason: nvm
I wonder what would have happened to Trainee Clare had Elena not been there for her, hugging and comforting Trainee Clare (and Clare doing the same to Elena) through the pain of the mutation or "Claymorization" ... would Clare have ended up like Cassandra without Elena and then Raki ?
A very fine point, Cassandra and Clare both seem to share that protagonist sort of persona. I think both Raki and Elena kept Clare from becoming a truly dark and out of touch person. Cassandra on the other hand seems to be hiding herself out of something close to a woman's vanity, she doesn't want to be seen as weird or twisted. I think a male counterpart of Cassandra wouldn't have nearly such a problem about people seeing his ability. In a way Cassandra's hidden nature has a innocent and almost childish quality that is the exact opposite of the more Brooding and revenge driven Clare. Without Elena and later Raki i have a feeling Clare would be a very scary sort of Claymore, the kind that would just cut someone down without a single moments thought. an Anti-hero sort of persona for lack of a better term.
Epicness by HK, as I discovered Cassandra's Awakened form, muhaha...heheheh:
---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------Originally Posted by HegemonKhan
Cassandra has the opposite personality of Helen, hehe
go back and look at Clare in the early chapters... Clare was hardcore, cold, and ruthless like Rafaela was... Clare was quite dark and scary... and she had a bad attitude too... hehe
Clare killed Elena without a second thought (and nearly decapitated Raki for that matter hehe. how she killed the poor "Claymore" NY who was initially using Raki as a hostage, immediately decapitating the "elder" NY, she wouldn't even let the flying NY get away, and etc), and she was so cold and ruthless, but slowly Raki started to "tame, calm, soften, and/or mellow" Clare... but it would take ~ 5-8 chapters... to do so... hehe
Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 20, 2011 at 01:34 AM.
Yup he definitely got all the for-running actions of tapping Claymore tail out of the way. He went from cute little boy to apparently the January to December Calender pin up all Claymores ages "Thirteen" to "God knows what" want in their rooms. compared to Clares Transition from cold and brooding to kind and stoic, Raki's transformation is way more pronounced and kinda funny.Originally Posted by HK
Soon he and Clare will be protecting there 1/8th(or whatever) Yoma hybrid baby from the organization like one big happy and dysfunctional family
Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 20, 2011 at 01:14 PM.
"Cassandra did not even match up to number five Elizabeth's sword technique."Originally Posted by SaphG1
No where does it say "Cassandra's sword technique", it just compares Cassandra herself.
After training with her for a long time, sure. I don't believe she was stronger before she did though, close maybe, but most likely not as strong. And like I said, we don't have any proof she was stronger before then so that's what I'm going with.Originally Posted by SaphG1
Originally Posted by SaphG1
Ok, it says "Warriors" as well, but nowhere does it prove she had attributes at or above a level one. But we do have straight-up-no-room-for-interpretation information directly from Yagi's pen, TWICE, that states otherwise. So that's what I'm going with.
I don't understand what you mean by "single prowess." If you mean it's as powerful as other number one's techniques, I still disagree since I've seen nothing indicating that her technique is useful against people of any real talent who've seen it before. So I'm still going to go with the element of surprise being it's main power.Originally Posted by SaphG1
I read it; I just quoted what I felt represented the core of your opinion and mine remains unchanged. She never once says anything about her image - but she and the narration say she can't stand seeing people weaker than her, especially those she used to be close with. Uranus disgusted her after she took her technique, obviously she flipped a switch on Neideen and she thinks Cassandra is disgusting and pathetic. It has nothing to do with beauty or image it's about her being a bi-polar, power-hungry, psychopath. I think you're making a huge stretch with the "cleanness" thing. You can see my post for further elaboration.Originally Posted by SaphG1
I was under the impression her extreme endurance was a temporary result of her extraordianry anger towards Roxanne and the intensity she felt for her purpose of killing her. She was getting worn out fighting 3 warriors significantly below her rank, she's obviously not an endurace type in most cases.Originally Posted by SaphG1
Smashing stone shows no indication of speed, just raw strength. And the entire point of the technique is flexibility, I'm not surprised she dodged an attack from a claymore who isn't noted for being very fast in her overall speed. If Audrey really was that fast, her entire fighting style wouldn't revolve around perrying attacks.Originally Posted by SaphG1
...Rachel's really fucking slow, since when is that news? Even if she was fast, and Audrey for that matter, they could never hope to reach half of Hysteria's speed and, equally as important, her superhuman precision which happen to be the perfect combo for taking care of the Dust Eater.Originally Posted by SaphG1
And just to clarify because I'm not quoting the rest of your post, it's because I feel I've countered it enough with the points already made.
Last edited by White Silver King; October 22, 2011 at 09:21 AM.
LOL, I'm with you on this Louvre. Even with Teresa sensing the flow of Yoki in Irene Quicksword, Teresa had to be fast to dodge it without getting hit at all when she was sitting in the Inn room with Clare sleeping.
I recall mentioning this already, but meh, here it is again:
for me, THEE (#1) example of specifically Teresa's (leg, travel) speed (It's better on display in the anime):
ch 23 pgs ~ 7-10
Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 27, 2011 at 01:32 PM.