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Me saying what I did was to defend Kakashi and I guess Hiruzen and Jiraiya from people who say they were bad because their students defected. Obito and Rin were chuunins, and Obito was on a mission with Kakashi, not Minato. I do not truly believe it's Minato's fault, at least with Obito's death, just as how Kakashi shouldn't be blamed for Sasuke's dark path, at least not entirely.
Jiraiya in my opinion was better than Minato though. Look at what Jiraiya did to Naruto, a bad ninja not as bright as Sasuke or Minato. He taught Naruto rasengan, made him smarter, and taught him how to summon and even draw on Kyuubi's power (or rather, willed him to do that). It's not that Naruto's gonna save hte world that makes Jiraiya a good teacher, but how he improved Naruto into a better ninja.
Back in Part I, we saw Naruto use tajuu kage bunshin a lot. After training with Jiraiya, Naruto didn't spam his kage bunshins that much and used it more intelligently. Jiraiya also taught Naruto, an "idiot", rasengan, an A-ranked move. Jiraiya was good at dumbing things up for Naruto, actually. xD
Ultimately though, Tsunade would likely be considered the best teacher. Just compare Sakura before training with Tsunade to Sakura after training; there's tons of change and improvement there. The Sakura that punched Zetsu's head in may not have done so without Tsunade's guidance or in Part I.
The more I think about it the more I lean towards tsunade and jiraiya.... I mean, making a doctor out of sakura, even as smart as she is, in less than 2 years is remarkable. Evidently people who have been at it their entire lives are inferior to her when it comes to certain aspects of healing and obviously her antidote making is not less than world class. At least as far as antidote making goes only tsunade or maybe shizune should be her superiors . Jiraiya taught naruto how to punch stuff but tsunade pounded a lifetime of medical knowledge into a teenager. I guess it comes down to what kinda of ninja the apprentice would want to be. Obviously naruto would have gotten nothing out of tsunade (since medical knowledge and ninjutsu requires overwhelmingly severe amounts of intelligence and chakra control). I guess sakura could have still become an elite shinobi under jiraiya tutelage considering jiraiya did make an elite shinobi out of konan....
I realy don't know if its a big feat of teaching for Tsunade for what she has done to Sakura. We don't exacly know how hard it was to make her know those stuff.
Comparing her to other medical nins is again not a good comparison. The teacher for those peeps probably don't know technics for developing antidoes or healing like Tsunade does. So in other words Tsunade knew more things and better techs to do diferent stuff. Sakrua was always good at learning stuff. You could say she learned math in 2 years that other people need 8 or so.
Sakura changed 0% in her way of thinking. Absolutly nothing changed there. Not even her will power changed, she is still screaming left and right for Naruto. So she is just a good geek that can suck information from Tsunade. Like a computer.
Personaly i don't see this as a incredible feat of teaching.
Naruto on the other hand... Its not like Sakura that was naturaly good at chakra control and therefore at chakra punching and healing. Look what JMan was able to do with that guy... Look at his morals. He whent from "i will avenge and kill you" to forgiveness and in the end to save the world.
Tsunade teached something to someone who had no problem lerning those stuff. Perfect student in other words (like Sasuke). JMan on the other hand... Exacly the oposite. Tsunade also was unable to change most of Sakura's caracter... Aside from healing she is as useless as ever.
This discusion explains the best what JMan had to work with and why its a super feat for him:
All Naruto had is the will to never give up. It helps in a fight of course (the will of fire and what not) but still JMan's work with Naruto is way more impresive if you ask me.
The only time she screamed for Naruto to save them was when Pain invaded. Unlike Part I, she fought well and owned people in Part II, even being resilient. She did very well against Sasori even with help from Chiyo, willing to risk her life for an old woman. Sakura back then wouldn't have done half as well against Sasori even if she was taught everything by another medical ninja. Sakura's personality changed from scared/reluctant to someone who refused to back down and someone who took charge when needed, as shown when she refused to hinder the mission to find Sasuke and stay still. Sure, she may not have some good moments like failing to kill Sasuke, but it doesn't negate the fact that she's grown in other areas.
Hell, you see the way she owned Zetsu? I doubt the old Sakura would have done that. She didn't even notice the fake Naruto twice whereas Sasuke did. Training with Tsunade definitely changed her into a better ninja as she was all "Naruto, only you cna save Sasuke!" and then went all "I'll save Sasuke with you!" until finally... "only you can do it, Naruto." But as I said, her weakness so far is Sasuke and overpowered enemies like Pain.
There's no doubt Jiraiya's a good teacher, but that's only because of the way he helped Naruto develop and become a better shinobi. Naruto had the willpower and the attitude, he just lacked some brains that got pounded into him. Naruto's skills improved, but that's just it. It wasn't until Pain that Naruto's views changed (possibly for the better).
The point is she has. She also stated herself how lame she is when she tried to kill Sasuke and then Naruto again saved her and she stated that all she can do is have faith in them. She could not do anything. The poine was her caracter is close to the same.Quote:
This time she could go into Hulk mode. Sakura PUNCH, shandalow (or whatever she screams). She got completly owned by those nins send by Raikage to Konoha and kicked away like a puppet. There is not even 1 non-fodder nin she "owned". Also punching is not exacly a great feat for Tsunade as her teacher.Quote:
Huh? She was ready to die for that old bridge builder. Sakura was a puppet for 90% of that fight and the old bat was constantly telling her what to do. Hell she was able to keep up with him (when Chiyo was not direcly controling her) because she knew a puppeter trick, again proof that she is a geek.Quote:
This is realy nothing that shows Tsunade is great as a teacher. She lerned punch mode and healing/antidote making from her.
She started doing that from part one, expecialy in the exams forest when those nins working from Oro attacked them and Sasuke was KO'ed.Quote:
She belived she could go with it but at the end she stated herself how useless she is.
She grown in some areas of course but nothing that would show Tsunade as a great teacher. It shows how Sakura is a geek and suks info like a spounge (like a computer). She is smart and has good chakra control so it was easy(well somewhat) to get that stuff.
It is impresive that Tsunade was able to get her to that level in 2 years but considering Tsunade knows advanced healing techs it would explain why Sakura is better in that field then fodder healing nins (and it makes sense as she is close to a main caracter).
That was a fodder level ninja. It was a Zetsu clone. All she has done is PUNCH him. Big feat for Tsunade in teaching here right?:PQuote:
It was a better feat the fact that she was able to find out its a clone. But then again Zetsu almost gave it away himself when he made that mistake with the pig i belive.
Of course it made her a better nin as the info she got from Tsunade in healing area and punching is great but this is not something that would put Tsunade above some of the other teachers.Quote:
Remember when they whent for Sasuke has useless she was? Getting KO'ed by a flying Kabuto and what exacly was she able to do after they get to Sasuke? Nothing.
This was not about if and how much she improved from part one but how much would it scale on the teacher meter for Tsunade and that its not that much compared with what JMan had to work with and what he was able to achomplish.
Its like taking a genius in math and then training him. Then take a dude with a IQ of 80 and try to do the same.
And it was ALL because of JMan. Even Nagato himself was saved in the end indirecly by JMan words/book/what he left behind in his student. JMan's words and caracter where the very thing that was holding Naruto back from choping Nagato's head off. Also yes its for the better as that is what will save the world.Quote:
The mentality/hope/faith that JMan left behind in his student are the things that will change the world. What JMan direcly and trough Nagato in a way teached to Naruto are the very things that will end up saving the world. So what JMan teached and left behind are way above anything Tsunade has. Tsunade just left behind in Sakura information. If you whant to compare it to math are equacions, numbers and stuff like that.
Even his other student MINATO HIMSELF, was changed by JMan words to understand that his son is the destiny kid that will save the world (JMan told him) and left behind the Kyuubi to help his son in that area.
JMan is and allways will be the best teacher for me. Not only for the techs he passed on to Naruto that are more or less irrelevant but the message of peace that is the real accomplishment. Stoping Naruto to rip Pein to pieces after how much hate he had in himself is a great feat that puts Tsunade to shame.
Of course i probably got diferent views on what makes you a good teacher. A good teacher first needs to teach you how to help others. If you will like Jesus. For me he is the greatest teacher ever (as of course i am a christian lol). He never showed me how to fish, shot a bow, work a computer or anything, all he showed me is HOW TO LIVE. This probably explains why i belive what what JMan left behind in Naruto to be something incredible and why i find this the biggest teaching accomplishment :P
Last edited by xXan; September 15, 2011 at 01:14 AM.
He trained 3 of the strongest characters in Naruto period which is Minato,Naruto,and Negato.
I'd place Hiruzen at a close second for being the one who trained the Legendary 3 Sannin.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like you're saying that because Sakura was already intelligent and a book worm that Tsunade doesn't deserve as much credit for making her into who she is from who she was. I don't agree with that. Just because someone is smart doesn't mean it'll be easy to teach them. I also don't agree that just because some one is smart that they should be referred to as a "geek" That comes with a negative connotation and I view it as a way of encouraging people to be stupid, which in and of itself is stupid. But that's just me. Even if It is easy to teach them, It is by no means easy to shape there personality. Sakura personally in Part 1 was mainly shaped by the shinobi text book she read, In part two it was far more evident that she was shaped by Tsunade not just in her abilities but also in her overall mentality. Also, it's not really fair to discredit Tsunade just because of her own knowledge in the field.
As far as Jiraiya goes, his success with Naruto and Minato doesn't really negate his failure with his other students and as a person overall. It's good that Naruto and minato learned how to live as people because of him as a matter fact, it's great. however what about Minato's teammates? What about Konan? Nagato may have been turned by Naruto who was was shaped by Jiraiya who was inspired by Nagato. But why did any of that matter to her? If Jiraiya had been as good of a teacher to her instilled the same mentality in her that he did Nagato and Yahiko, maybe it wouldn't have taken Naruto to turn Nagato maybe konan could have done it.
Don't even get me started on letting Naruto suffer alone for 12 years and then unintentionally doing the job that was suppose to be taken care of from the start. but I guess that has more to do with his failings as a person rather than a teacher.
Against the Cloud ninjas, even Sai was turned into fodder, presumably to make Naruto look good. Sakura probably failed against Sasuke for plot reasons as Sasuke was Naruto's opponent, not Sakura's. Considering that she was ready to punch the Sharingan out of Sasuke when they first met after the timeskip, I'm just as more willing to believe it's plot reasons Sakura failed to kill Sasuke.
Sure, Sakura had help of Chiyo, but look at her determination and how determined she was to bring down Sasori and even sacrifice her life for Chiyo's. Unlike with the bridge builder, she wasn't ordered to protect Chiyo whatsoever. Her confidence in herself and overall attitude increased after learning with Tsunade. She hesitates less, she is more willing to take charge, and she's become an accomplished healer with tremendous strength.
Naruto on the other hand, didn't give a shit about making the world peaceful or whatever until Nagato came along and talked to him. If it weren't for Nagato being all "the world is full of hatred, and sensei wanted to get rid of it!", then Naruto probably wouldn't have started down that path, which is the only mentality that he got from Jiraiya. However, this doesn't make Jiraiya any less of a good teacher considering how he increased Naruto's combat abilities and taught him a difficult jutsu.
Though, we could say Naruto's one of the best teachers since not only was he able to teach Konohamaru kage bunshin no jutsu and sexy jutsu, but he also taught Konohamaru rasengan and changed Konohamaru into someone willing to work hard over taking shortcuts, which made even Ebisu respect Naruto and look beyond the Kyuubi thing. And, he is involved with his protege a lot, going as far as playing ninja with him.
Tsunade would have a WAY easier time to teach Sakura super punches and healing as she is naturaly good in that area. JMan for instance would be way harder for Sarutobi to teach as he is not good. He was a joker just like Naruto. Naruto himself is hard for JMan to teach. Hell this was made clear in his discusion with Orochimaru when the 3 sannin had there fight in part 1.
The words geek was not used to describe someone inteligent but someone that learnes by keeping there nose in the books all day.
Also the increase in mentality was very small. She was a little more determined but no that much. The only realy diference is that this time she can punch like hell.
Tsunade skill in healing was used to show why Sakura was better then the overall nins that go about. Tsunade had advanced tech to teach her.
No i am not stating Tsunade is BAD just that someone working with Naruto and making him get to the point he is now is WAY more impresive.
What other students? JMan never failled completly and you would see that if you would have read my post carefuly.
In the end was SAVED but JMan's other student, his book and JMan himself. Nagato himself ended up helping to shape the savior the the world. In a way this is not a failure. It was a temporarily failure true BUT in the end Nagato was saved by the good that was left in him by JMan.
She was mostly following Nagato about and she herself was saved in the end to. She had a big fight with Madara and almost stoped him.
JMan had to die for them but they where saved in the end.
Not even the greatest teacher can foresee all ends. That would make him God. But he was able to place enough good in them that in the end by JMan's indirect and direct action they where saved.
Thing about it. Tsunade never failed as she had only 1 student. JMan himself never failed in the end to.
Also you can't realy compare the student that will save the world and already saved his entire village, placed Gaara as Kage (not direcly but its all because of him) so made a 100% sure allie out of that village, made rain village allie to (not sure now because Konan is dead) and is right now impresing ALL the kages on the battlefield and i can keep going like this.
What exacly has Sakura done? Getting KO'ed by a flying Kabuto and pupper mode for that old bat? Only small things that can't even compare to Naruto.
In the end she herself stated that the best thing she can do is have faith in Naruto and she herself was screaming (and crying) for Naruto to save them.
You also have NO idea what JMan had to do in those 12 years. For one he was getting INTEL ON AKA. The very organization that had the goal to take Naruto and kill hims and stomp the entire world. Then he had to keep an eye on Orochimaru. Then he had to go all over the world to try TO CHANGE IT for the better and lots more. Its not like JMan was sitting all day and drinking beer and stating FU Naruto. I have to say you have a weird view of JMan. He HAD to be away from Naruto.
Sai was not turned into into fodder lol. Where you got that from lol. He never landed a hit but he was not made to look like a imbecile getting hit like a complete NOOB just so Naruto can again run and save her but. She (as stupid as she is) tried a frontal open attack with NO TACTICS involved and got owned. This is what happends when she is not in puppet mode:P
Even vs Sasuke and she would have died from a frontal open attack. She had a mass murderer in front of herself but left herself open after all the "determination" crep she whent trough and even eliminated her own squad that would have helped her do it.
Sakura failed because of her determination. She was stupid. Look at Naruto, he is not going to kill Sasuke as he knows that is a bad thing. He whants to SAVE him. You can try to say its plot but its clear that "all she can do is place her strust in then (more like in Naruto)". Sakura belived that if she kills him all will be well and she even tried to seduce Naruto to make him feel better lol.
She was ready to die for the bridge builder or that little kid. Sakura is a good person from part 1 that would put her life on the line to save someone. This is not something that Tsunade made. Sure she is more determined but not by much. Even in the forest exam she was standing to all those nins, determined and ready.
He got the info from JMan. Nagato just opened his eyes in a sense but JMan told him all of that. The problem was Naruto was to young to get it, he needed a kick in the but to see it. After Nagato started to go bla bla bla he remember JMan's worlds about hate. Those words where the reason he stoped from murdering Nagato.
Nagato also got that stuff from JMan. So its like 1 of JMan's students whas helping a fellow student. In the end it was ALL because of JMan's action. If he never decided to STAY and help the 3 kids Naruto would have never got to that point where Nagato told him that message.
Yes Naruto himself is a good teacher but that is to be expected. He is not right now on JMan's level but its the manga teme for the young generation to surpass the old. Also Naruto teached Konohamaru some tactics to. Kona was able to WTF pwn 1 of Pein realm (of course with help).
Last edited by xXan; September 19, 2011 at 01:11 AM.
I think I am the only one who voted for Asuma. His bond with his students was touching. What about Kurenai she was a teacher too.
Well so has Naruto with JMan. When JMan died Naruto was destroyed. The diference is that Asume teached his team revenge, JMan on the other hand forgiveness and how to stop the chain of hate. You can decide what was the better way to go but i belive the manga was clear on this point. If not for Naruto's mercy (teached to him by JMan) half of Konoha would be dead right now.
What are you on about XXan? Naruto went after Nagato to kill him, its just he changed his mind because of what Nagato then said.
What stoped him are JMan's words, book and faith in him. Nagato is also a fellow student of JMan and in part he was helping a fellow student grow. In the end they where all saved because of JMan's words, faith, book and what he placed inside of them in those years he teached them.
All Nagato was able to do is kick Naruto in the nuts to help him realize what JMan was telling him as he was to young at the time to get it.
Look here this is AFTER the talk no jutsu with Nagato and he still wants to kill him:
Then he charges at Nagato:
Then look what stoped him from killing Nagato. It was JMan's memory and the faith and job JMan placed in/on him.
It is better explain here:
Back then he was unable to get it but JMan put all that in him from back then. He just needed Nagato to give him the bumb he needed to figure it out. You can read the following pages if you whant. But the bottom line is Naruto stoped because of JMan's "nonsense":
He stoped because OF WHAT JMAN BELIVED:
JMan was able to place his faith in him and Naruto understood that. Naruto stoped because of his teacher and what that theacher belived in. That is peace, love and forgiveness.
This is what JMan left behind in Naruto. Forgiveness and not revange like Asuma that only would continue the chain of HATE.
Shika was even ready to kill Sasuke and started to form a squad to take him out, that is what the rest of the teachers left behind in there students (including Tsunade in Sakura).
So to close this Naruto never stoped because of what Nagato said.. That was nothing that could have stoped his hate for him and desire to rip him apart. JMan's faith and legacy is what stoped him. Later his father, Minato and mother, Kushina added to this.
I vote for Gai.
Naruto, Sasuke, Minato, Itachi, Orochimaru are true geniuses, and its easier to train a Genius.
But Rock Lee wasn't even supposed to be a Ninja, he can't use Ninjutsu at all, and Gai made what he is today, because he was the only one to believe on him, and taught all he knows.
I don't really see another teacher with more faith and dedication to his student than Gai.