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Thread: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Am I the only one that noticed that as the story went on Konomi began to recycle his surreal concepts?

    For instance, Ryoma always had the ability to copy other moves just by seeing them once, compliments of Konomi's Marty-Sue, but come the introduction of the State of Self-Actualization, was it me or did everyone treated it like it was some new thing? I have more to say about the State of Self-Actualization later, but for now I just want to focus on some other redundant things seen in PoT.

    One of the most infamous moves guilty of Konomi-dundancy, the Hadokyu, or Wave Surge. Initially it was used by Tetsu Ishida as a single-handed heavy groundstroke. Then, Kawamura utilized it and created his own variations, such as the Two-Armed Wave Surge, the Wave Surge Dash and the Jumping Wave Surge. But, then we meet Gin Ishida, the Wave Surge's founder, who has 108 forms of the Wave Surge technique. The kicker? They're all the same, except they have different amounts of power. Okay, am I the only one that finds that boring? At least Kawamura came up with more interesting variations; Gin's 107 other Wave Surge blows are basically ways of saying "You aren't worth my strongest technique."

    And then we meet other power players in NPoT and, lo and behold, Danji, Kawamura and Kabaji's doubles opponent, has power that surpasses both of them! But the thing is, isn't nearly every power shot a Wave Surge? What's the point in giving Danji a technique like "Danji Summer" or "Danji Springtime" when they're more or less the same thing, just more power? I'm just saying, all power shots sans Kawamura's obvious variations are basically the same, just different [unknown] degrees of power put into them. I mean, the only thing that can really diversify the power players and their shots are how strong they are.

    Let me see if I can give another example. Compare Kippei Tachibana's Abare Dama / Wild Ball to Yoshiro Akazawa's (Don't remember him? He's St. Rudolph's captain, and another victim of potential shafted away by the rest of the cast) Magic. Isn't it more or less the same thing; making multiple balls appear? If anything, Akazawa's technique is just more theoretically possible. Need I mention Sengoku's Tiger Canon and Momoshiro's Dunk Smash? Love how the Smiling Hitman's Zapper~/Bakyu~un is basically Yagyu the Gentleman's Laser Beam turned up to the high school level. Oh, and Renji, the chances of your Cicada being just like Tezuka's Zero-Degrees Drop Shot is 99.18% ... is what I was going to say. I can go along with the similarities, but I wish the characters would stop marveling at these techniques as if a pre-existing character hasn't done similar or the same exact things before; they can at least make the connection.

    Another runner-up for most annoying reoccurrence and then treated like a brand new slice of bread is the aforementioned ability to copy techniques. Like I said earlier, this was a part of Ryoma's gimmick; he could play Megaman 8 with all the tricks and trades he had encountered like it was nothing. Then cue Kabaji, who could do the exact same thing. Then came a guy called Nio, who was an interesting case. At first, he didn't just copy other players; he actually dressed up as them. But now, Konomi, has him appear to clone other players through artistic representation. No more player-swindling; Nio is another Kabaji. So what the heck?

    I'll give it to Konomi, though. There are times when he gives these moves distinctions. For instance, ex-Seigaku captain Yamato's Gen'u Yume Utsutsu / Lucid-Dreaming Phantasm is basically Anti-Data Tennis, and Fuji's Vanishing Serve is a serve unlike Chitose Senri's groundstroke, Spirited Away (though this can be hit as a serve in addition to a groundstroke).

    And what really gets to me, what really grinds my gears, is how Ryoma and Fuji are treated as these epic tennis gods because they're prodigies. Okay, lets kick the ballistics here, damn near half the cast are prodigies. Lets go through the list of characters that were said to be tennis prodigies:

    1. Ryoma Echizen
    2. Shusuke Fuji
    3. Jin Akutsu (He was even said to be a "once-per-decade" kind of player!)
    4. Jiro Akutagawa
    5. Yushi Oshitari
    6. Hikaru Zaizen


    Not to mention characters who are said to have high IQs ala Koharu and Inui and other haxxorz like Yukimura and Tezuka. There's really no point in identifying characters like say, Fuji, as a genius when the cast has a shit-load of "scary guys." Really, if you're not a genius that can evolve in this series then you're really not important.

    And then I could go on back to the techniques themselves and not about how redundant but how surreal they are (like the Danji Summer sending both doubles opponents flying at once, or a sky smash or whatever that "Vanish" thing is that Kintaro is currently up against), but that's a battle that won't end.

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    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Atobe the king's Avatar
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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    I pretty much agree with most of the points, but had konomi kept the manga a simple unrealistic take on tennis and not what it is now (i'm seeing so much blood in the recent chapters i forgot it was tennis these guys were playing), only so far you can go with silly techniques before you have to start breaking rules. Fuji's whole thing was that no one knew his full potential since he wasn't pushed until Kanto. Ryoma's whole thing is that he's "young".

    As for copying, iirc ryoma didn't really do it mid match right? He would copy something he had seen before. Kabaji can only copy whats in front of him but his copying is has met some walls , and Nio's aren't limited to who he's playing but they aren't perfect. While muga is just a bunch of random moves from people you didn't even have to play and cant control what comes next. Similar concepts, executed pretty differently.

    Agree with everything else though
    When's Prince of Tennis Smash Hit 4

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Atobe the king View Post
    (i'm seeing so much blood in the recent chapters i forgot it was tennis these guys were playing),
    Which brings me to another point in the art of Konomi-dundancy which I'd forgot to mention: bloody tennis matches.

    First we had Klauza as our favorite red-painter in tennis. The guy had so much power that he really dyed Akaya in blood. Then Devil Akaya, who just goes nuts. Then there are power players like Gin, Takashi, and Danji who can send their opponents bleeding into the sky. Now there's Hakamada Izou, Kintaro's high-school opponent and a guy who's obviously so bad-ass that his acts of making his opponents bleed actually compels Konomi to call it Blood-stained Tennis.

    ... What? We've seen it before; Harada's not special when it comes to obviously breaking the rules and making the game a blood-bath.
    Last edited by Brandnewkid; September 14, 2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Hmm you altered it a bit from when you posted in on MF, it looks better now...

    I still have to disagree with you on the copy section. I already went over it before, so I won't repeat myself, but it's basically as Atobe said, same concept, different execution.
    It'd kinda be like saying that Twist Serve and Kohou are too similar because they're both serves.

    That being said, reusing moves isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time, with over 100 characters, giving each of them completly unqiue stuff is probably not doable.
    There are also instances where it makes sense for two characters to use similar techniques, examples include Gin and Tetsu or Yanagi and Inui.

    I more or less agree with the rest.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    H
    It'd kinda be like saying that Twist Serve and Kohou are too similar because they're both serves.
    No, that analogy does not work. The Twist Serve isn't a power shot like the Kohou.

    Quote Quote:
    That being said, reusing moves isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time, with over 100 characters, giving each of them completly unqiue stuff is probably not doable.
    I may agree with you on this, my beef is with how they all treat every "new" move as totally amazing in-universe.

    Quote Quote:
    There are also instances where it makes sense for two characters to use similar techniques, examples include Gin and Tetsu or Yanagi and Inui.

    I more or less agree with the rest.
    True. But, when you have things like Renji's Cicada and Tezuka's Zero-Degrees Drop Shot being the same thing is just ... weird.

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    Grin Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Its Hakamada* Izou who is facing Tooyama Kintaro btw. Not Harada.
    But I agree with your post.

    But the Muga issue is bearable.
    Coz luckily the only players who can access it are Echizen, Tezuka, Sanada, Chitose, Yukimura, Kevin Smith(Anime) and... thats it for now.

    But to be fair Konomi, he has added some variation to the similar play styles of the characters.

    Yanagi and Inui are.... well yeah the same.

    Kawamura & Ishida. G - Kawamura has takent he Hadoukyuu into different forms like you said, so Im cool with that. And yeah, thankfully Konomi puts it in that the other characters also think he is boring

    The Muga no Kyouchi guys - Only Echizen, Tezuka and Chitose can open the doors to it. So its not too bad.

    Yagyuu & Taira - Yeah, Im a lil annoyed too. It even had the SFX for Laserbeam. And like you said at High School level since it breaks through strings. But surely Konomi will hand him something else, since that technique cant be the reason why he is No.18 in Japan.
    Coz I cant see how that shot alone could defeat Yamato.

    Kabaji - I dont enjoy his matches. But we need him in the series to show the WIDE Variety of play styles that Konomi has been able to think up.

    Niou - You have to admit, Synchronizing with the opponent to get their next moves is freaking awesome.

    Date - LOL Dont even get me started on Danji Summer & Spring. Whats next Autumn or Winter!!?? I totally agree. But it cant be helped since he is No. 12. So if Konomi wanted him to be a Power Play user he had to be insane powerful since he had to PROVE what makes him better than Akiba, Taira, Hakamada, Hara etc.

    Geniuses -
    >Fuji. Konomi will hand him a power-up. He is the 2nd most popular character in the series as of the last poll.
    >Zaizen. To be honest, that whole ''Ill end this in 17 rallies'' moment during Tezuka VS Chitose has made me look down on him and he has done NOTHING to change my mind.

    He even reveals he initially declined his U-17 invite. So he's not gonna have that cool epic moment of determination for him to be handed a power-up. He is a big disappointment.
    Although it seems he is the next Captain of Shitenhoji.

    >Jirou. His Magic Volley technique is awesome. His intro was really cool. The fact he took out Fuji Yuuta in under 15mins. But after being slapped by Fuji, we have yet to see him have a Singles match
    He needs a Singles Match. He was a popular character in the polls so im doubting he'll get left behind in Shin PoT.

    >Oshitari. Y. He was introduced as near Fuji level. Took 6 straight games from Momoshiro and practically broke him down. Although his hand got numbed at the end.
    He slapped Mukahi 7-0 in the tie-break which has underlined his power so I think Konomi has still kept him as a genius.

    >Akutsu. Oni has told him to fill that darkness in his heart. He was really badass so I dont think Konomi will forgot that he is a ''once in a decade talent''. He can hit 5 balls at once right?
    Akutsu and Kite have appeared in a Pair Puri, so I reckon Akutsu still has more chances to prove his Genius in the upcoming chpters considering there is an anime and we aint even seen the Top 10 in action yet.

    So its too early to write off all the geniuses as of yet.

    The questions are guys like Kite, Hirakoba, Sengoku, Ibu and Kamio.
    Guys that began cool, but became sucky as the story progressed.

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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    No, that analogy does not work. The Twist Serve isn't a power shot like the Kohou.
    While it's true that the effect of the moves differs, in the end they are both serves.

    The same holds true for the Echizen, Kabaji and Niou though, they all copy stuff but the conditions and effects are different.

    That seems like a perfectly viable analogy to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    I may agree with you on this, my beef is with how they all treat every "new" move as totally amazing in-universe.
    Hmm that can be quite unnecessary at times I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    True. But, when you have things like Renji's Cicada and Tezuka's Zero-Degrees Drop Shot being the same thing is just ... weird.
    But ZSD rolls backwards, whereas Cicada rolls forwards, they are totally different

    That's true, Cicada wasn't really needed. Yet... I wouldn't exactly say it's weird. Maybe that's just me but as Renji collects data on various players, I could imagine that when he sees a move that fits into his playstyle he tries to either copy it or use an altered version, and ZSD is definately displayed as one of the best moves.

    In Cicada's case, for me it's more a "This didn't really amount to anything, rather than "It doesn't make sense for him to have it".

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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    While it's true that the effect of the moves differs, in the end they are both serves.

    The same holds true for the Echizen, Kabaji and Niou though, they all copy stuff but the conditions and effects are different.

    That seems like a perfectly viable analogy to me.
    What the- that's not a perfectly viable analogy at all. Yes, they're generally serves but with entirely different purposes. The Twist Serve is usually an end-game move for Ryoma, while the Kohou is Sengoku's mid-game technique that he unleashes whenever his Feng Shui charms just ain't working for him. Saying that the two are the same because they're serves is like saying Ryoma and Sengoku are the same people because they're human. You're thinking too generally, there.

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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Twist Serve and Kohou are treated differently.
    Twist Serve is a serve well used by pros.

    Kohou is a freaking huge leap.

    Konomi has really put in a nice bit of variation there.

    Kick Serve is far more closely linked to Twist Serve than Kohou.


    Echizen and Niou and Kabaji have the same copy style?
    They dont really.

    Konomi was careful with his variations. I think what he's done their isnt too bad.

    Niou - Copies a players play style.

    Echizen - Copies various moves he has seen before.

    Kabaji - Copies simply like a mirror.

    They are each quite different. Nice variation.

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    MH Senpai 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Atobe the king's Avatar
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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Twist serve was the shit because a a middle schooler hitting a kicker with that much kick was amazing, A twist serve and a kick serve are the same thing. But as it got more and more unrealistic it wasn't so impressive...by the end of the series he started matches with it. And i know i'm likely nitpicking but...Cicada looks like a drop volley rather than a drop shot. Assuming it is, drop volley has to be done in a volley position...you can do a dropper as far as behind the baseline if you've got good enough touch. http://www.mangareader.net/422-27253...apter-356.html
    When's Prince of Tennis Smash Hit 4

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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Yeah that sounds right.

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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    What the- that's not a perfectly viable analogy at all. Yes, they're generally serves but with entirely different purposes. The Twist Serve is usually an end-game move for Ryoma, while the Kohou is Sengoku's mid-game technique that he unleashes whenever his Feng Shui charms just ain't working for him. Saying that the two are the same because they're serves is like saying Ryoma and Sengoku are the same people because they're human. You're thinking too generally, there.
    My statement:
    "Twist Serve and Kohou are both serves, they are too similar."

    Your rebuttal:
    "No they aren't, their effects are different."

    Your statement about copies:
    "Echizen, Kabaji and Niou all copy stuff, they are too similar."

    My rebuttal:
    "No they aren't, their techniques have different effects."

    See what I'm getting at? Of course Twist Serve and Kohou are nowhere near the same thing, my point is that Muga, Illusion and Simple-Mindedness aren't the same or anywhere close to it either.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brandnewkid's Avatar
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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmaster1991 View Post
    Your statement about copies:
    "Echizen, Kabaji and Niou all copy stuff, they are too similar."


    My rebuttal:
    "No they aren't, their techniques have different effects."

    See what I'm getting at? Of course Twist Serve and Kohou are nowhere near the same thing, my point is that Muga, Illusion and Simple-Mindedness aren't the same or anywhere close to it either.
    This is where you're wrong. I'm not saying they, the players, are all similar because they can play copycat- I'm saying that they all share the three different talents which basically amounts to the same thing. Konomi could've just given Muga to Kabaji and Niou and called it a day, but he basically wrapped the same gift three times with different wrappers.

    Hope that makes sense.

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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandnewkid View Post
    This is where you're wrong. I'm not saying they, the players, are all similar because they can play copycat- I'm saying that they all share the three different talents which basically amounts to the same thing. Konomi could've just given Muga to Kabaji and Niou and called it a day, but he basically wrapped the same gift three times with different wrappers.

    Hope that makes sense.
    My apologies for my choice of words.

    And no, it doesn't make sense because the three abilities used to copy are distinctly different from each other.

    Muga
    The user's base abilities are increased and what is copied is random, based on past experiences. In return it eventually takes a lot of stamina to keep up.

    Simple Mindedness
    Copies are restricted to the abilities used by the opponent. No side effects (unless you want to include that some techniques take longer to copy than others).

    Illusion
    The only restriction is the difficulty of the abilities Niou wants to copy. However, certain preperations have to be made. Furthermore, it's broken when the opponent overcomes the mental barrier.

    Long story short, giving Niou and Kabaji Muga instead of their own abilities would change things quite a bit.

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    Re: The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy

    Niou, Kabaji and Echizen's abilities are very different in their own right and the Author has purposely and carefully shown this.

    Kabaji is the lowest of them all.
    He is effectively a mirror.
    But Tezuka showed that experience is as important as skill to a player.

    Echizen uses Muga which has been explained my both me and Chaosmaster before, its VERY different to Kabaji's style.

    Niou completely impersonates a persons playstyle. So instead of copying techniques seen before like Muga, or copying whats infront of you like Kabaji, it takes on all the attributes of the player being impersonated.

    They are all very different.

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