Hunter x Hunter Chapter 318 Discussion

[Uriel]

When I say stronger I mean also experience. It can have less aura and more experience, as was said. That's why I think Manipulation users are not actually an issue. Experience here is the key above even Nen.

[kkck]

Well, experience would be an issue if it did not apply for manipulators either. How does a nen user hold experience over an experienced manipulator user of whom he only knows the most basic guidelines for his abilities (in which even that much would be unlikely in a fight)? Ability users are hard countered by experience for two reasons IMO:

1.- They are all different in some form or another. There simply are not two equal abilities with the same conditions, even if there can be similar ones. Add in different styles, ideas and forms and every manipulator is something in itself.

2.- All ability users who rely on conditions to use their techniques ultimately rely heavily on the element on surprise. Experience cannot counter surprise, otherwise it is not a surprise. In this regard this is a spur of the moment thing. Add in the previous point and you got something really hard to deal with. If experience alone was enough to deal with manipulators then the same would apply to any nen user who relied on completing a set of conditions would be helpless against "experience" which the manga has proven to not be the case.

From what the manga has said experience in nen fights is not about knowing how to deal with every situation, which is quite frankly impossible, but rather about more specific things. For example, gon's awkward nen movement around his body thus making his attacks easily to read is attributed to inexperience. Defending with kou instead of simply having more nen on the bodypart which you are protecting would also be attributed to inexperienced. I guess there is an element of how to react to what your enemy does but even that is not quite written in stone as every fight is different. If anything, experience could even go as far as be used against you if it were to be used in that particular regard. I daresay that is one of the reasons murao mentioned that you can never know the result of a nen fight until it is fought.

[Phantron]

Hand to hand combat is directly related to the Strengthen school. The further you're away from that the less likely you're going to be good at hand to hand. Going way back to the aura chart, if a strength user can use level 10 strength at 100%, a level 10 manipulation user can only use level 6 strength at 60% of the power. This is 1.36 versus 2.0 (aura is added to your base stat).

Pufu is the strongest manipulation type user by far that has appeared in HXH. No human character that we've seen besides Netero is even comparable to his overall power level. Yet he cannot control Morel in mid battle. He is also the person who has shown the most thinking involved in battle. When he used his powders and Morel refused to talk, Pufu said he was disappointed if Morel thought it was just a ploy to get him to inhale the powder. When Pufu tried to use the hypnotizing powder on Gon, Gon saw it right away and told him to back off. At that point, Pufu is much stronger than either Gon or Morel, but he was unable to control either of them while in combat. Despite the fact that his manipulation powers can allow him to control an entire army, he was never able to control his enemies while fighting. Even the most powerful manipulation user in the series so far can only manipulate those he managed to capture.

For Shalunark's antenna to work, he basically need to poke his antennae at least past the skin of the recipient. Now let's see what this involves. His antennae is presumably made out of ordinary material. The body of a Hunter, as we all know, can at least block bullets by itself (without the need of aura), so if no aura is involved, the antennae should just bounce off. Now, Shalunark can add its to the antennae's penetrating power with aura. This has to come from Strength school, where he has 0.36 modifier (60% the level at 60% the strength). If he's against someone with similar modifier or lower (Manipulation, Materialize, Special), those schools all rely on special abilities to begin with so there's no way the enemy won't be aware of the common tricks a manipulation user might employ. In that case, it'd just be whoever managed to outsmart the opponent will win. .

If it's against anyone with a higher modifier (Strengthen, Morph, Emission), those guy can simply defend with aura against the antennae. When Ubogin was captured, he was given paralyzing gas because needles cannot penetrate his body. Note that even if you were able to make a bleeding wound against such an enemy (which is pretty hard if you think about it, given the enemy has better physical offense/defense compared to you), Hisoka and Netero both used some technique that stops bleeding immediately. It appears that users can create a layer of skin from just aura to stop the bleeding, and given multiple guys have used this technique, I'll assume it's a fairly widely known technique. Again, you're looking at ordinary material + Shalunark's strengthen ability versus aura defense of the recipient, and since manipulation starts out very far away from Strengthen, it'd be difficult for him to pierce the skin of anyone who is of comparable level to him.

[Uriel]

I actually thought that Pufu was not Manipulation, but Emission. Pitou seemed to me as the most powerful Manipulation user, since He can control a huge quantity of puppets that actually can do something.

As a side note, of course. There is any databook about their Hatsu? :P

[Phantron]

I actually thought that Pufu was not Manipulation, but Emission. Pitou seemed to me as the most powerful Manipulation user, since He can control a huge quantity of puppets that actually can do something.

As a side note, of course. There is any databook about their Hatsu? :P

The offical HXH book lists Pufu as Manipulation. Pitou's type is Special because when he did the leaf test, the leaf wilted.

Note that Emission is next to Manipulation, and Pufu's uses aura blasts against Killua which seem to be life threatening even at 1/14 of his power (1/7 clone, 50% remote control penalty). Togashi is very meticulous about these things. You pretty much never see Pufu doing hand to hand because that'd require him using a school where he's only 60% at, and Pufu is smart enough to avoid fighting where he is disadvantaged.

Manipulation is next to Special, so there's nothing strange about Pitou being good at manipulation. It seems to me Pitou's manipulation is more like 'mass animate dead'. Pitou said that his puppets don't have the same precision as Morel's purple army, though of course he has far more puppets compared to Morel.

Pitou and Pufu both have power to manipulate at the national level (Pitou can create an army, and Pufu said he can do it too), but neither character were able to manipulate their opponents who are much weaker than they are while fighting. There is just no reason to believe any manipulation based attacks would have a chance of working in mid-combat against a seasoned Hunter, even if there is a large overall power disparity.

When Palm attempted to infiltrate the palace, she knew she had to die quickly if she's caught, because again, manipulation users aren't exactly hard to find, and it's trivial for the Royals to capture her and then manipulate her. It has to be common sense on how to deal with manipulation users in the world of HXH.

[kkck]

Pitou did the water test and he was shown to be specialization. As for his abilities, I would think they involve a combination of emission and manipulation. The effects they get are perhaps due to his specialization. I don't see how pufu could be classified as emission. He never actually emitted any form of nen to begin with. I would think he was specialization. His abilities were innate and related specifically to how his body worked. Since spliting his cells and creating spores does not fall on any nen classification he has to be specialization. As for pufu, I guess he has to be specialization too. His body changing was an innate ability, not nen related. Seeing he could create beams and modify his body I would think his specialization was to modify his body and used enhancement and emission for his attacks.

Now, hunter's bodies were never shown to be able to withstand bullets alone. We saw the battle with uvo however he had his nen up most of the time doing the defending. Ultimate it is nen that blocks bullets and whatnot. The antenna on its own probably would never make it past a hunters nen defense but in turn charging it with nen is something any hunter could do and would basically allow it to go through the skin of a hunter. I don't honestly think a high level manipulator would allow something like a basic nen defense to stop his manipulation, there is something inherently wrong about that lol. I guess such an scenario is plausible in a extreme case but in most scenarios I don't think it would apply.

[Uriel]

Thinking on the Puppets Pitou uses, I would say requires more Materialization and Manipulation, actually.

And the spores made me think of Emission, to be honest. Pufu techniques seems to be focus on large distance with large amounts of Nen used for it, so that made me think on Emission even more than Manipulation. I think it was said by Senritsu (I believe, I can't remember) that Emission users worked out like that.

[Phantron]

Now, hunter's bodies were never shown to be able to withstand bullets alone. We saw the battle with uvo however he had his nen up most of the time doing the defending. Ultimate it is nen that blocks bullets and whatnot. The antenna on its own probably would never make it past a hunters nen defense but in turn charging it with nen is something any hunter could do and would basically allow it to go through the skin of a hunter. I don't honestly think a high level manipulator would allow something like a basic nen defense to stop his manipulation, there is something inherently wrong about that lol. I guess such an scenario is plausible in a extreme case but in most scenarios I don't think it would apply.

Ubogin defended against a sniper rifle and a rocket launcher with aura. I hope you don't think his body on its own cannot withstand bullets. This is a guy whose goal in life is to strengthen his body to become the perfect killing machine.

Refer to where Kurapika first learned aura, his master basically told him this:

If you attempt to strengthen your first, the most you can do is 1.60 (this is limited by his innate type). Against a strengthen type user, he can strengthen his body to 2.0. 1.60 versus 2.00 means, assuming your base body is equal, you won't be doing any meaningful damage against him.

In fact, this is exactly what happened in the Kurapika versus Ubogin fight. Until Ubogin was chained, there was no indication that Kurapika can ever do meaningful damage to him.

Now you might say this is because Ubogin's physical body is much stronger, except it's not. After he's chained, Kurapika punched him with a straight aura fist and Ubogin started coughing up blood. Again, Kurapika can do at most 1.60 modifier on his strength, and it hurt Ubogin defending at 1.00 (no aura). This means Ubogin has at most 60% more physical strength compared to Kurapika, and Ubogin is easily the strongest character measured by physical strength in HXH for a very long time. It's likely a lot less than that since Ubogin was clearly hurting once he can't defend with aura.

I think people think aura is the end all be all, but 'no chance without aura' really means 'no chance without aura against anyone of comparable strength'. In Greed Island, Killua said he can easily defeat some of the random nobodies on his team without using aura when they encountered Razor. When Pitou faced Gon the second time, Killua's evaluation was "Even Pitou can't defeat Gon without using aura now." This implies at one point, this has to be possible! So far as manipulation ability goes, it appears that you have to at least satisfy the ability to do damage against your opponent. Yes you can say a kiss doesn't seem to do damage, but if you can kiss someone you can bite them with poison (multiple characters have poisonous bite abilities). I mean if you can manipulate someone without causing damage, how is there even any sense of balance? What's stopping someone from saying, "If I say Hello and you responded, I can control you?"

Using the 'must at least be able to do damage', you end up having to solve the equation:

strength of material used + (user's physical ability) * (1+aura modifier) > strength of enemy's body + (enemy's physical ability) * (1+aura modifier).

In the world of HXH, you can assume the strength of a Hunter's body is > strength of whatever material you may use. Unless someone has a diamond saw that can control you if it cuts you, I don't see why one should not assume the body of a Hunter is easily far more durable than most material that exists in the world. Assuming both person are of comparable physical/aura level, it's just 1.36 for the manipulation versus 2/1.64/1.36/1.16 depending on the enemy's type. However the characters with 1.36 or 1.16 are Materialize/Manipulation/Special, i.e. these guys have to know what you're trying to do because they'll be doing the same, so you've no advantage over them. The guys with 2/1.64 modifier can simply defend. Yes in this equation you can easily control someone who is much lower than you either in physical strength or aura level, but being able to control someone much weaker than you isn't saying much.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

Thinking on the Puppets Pitou uses, I would say requires more Materialization and Manipulation, actually.

And the spores made me think of Emission, to be honest. Pufu techniques seems to be focus on large distance with large amounts of Nen used for it, so that made me think on Emission even more than Manipulation. I think it was said by Senritsu (I believe, I can't remember) that Emission users worked out like that.

Well if just going by the manga we can't even say for sure if Yupi was a Strengthen type user and since the Royals are dead there's obviously no way to verify now. But the official HXH book with the power hexagon gives the following type for the most powerful users:

Meryem: Unknown
Netero: Strengthen
Yupi: Strength
Pufu: Manipulation
Pitou: Special (this is also in the manga)

I noticed Togashi doesn't really like to classify everyone into 'Special'. He probably doesn't want to get into a world like Naruto or One Piece where everyone has some kind of super special power. I saw someone making a chart of users by their type and Special is definitely the least common. There's considerable wiggle room to explain most abilities without needing to invoke the 'Special' clause.

[kkck]

It can't really be materialization. Materialization creates real objects which can be seen by normal people(like kurapika's chains). The puppets are made of nen and are not real objects nor can they be seen by people without nen. Emission and manipulation alone would not result in puppets though (my bad back there). Emission would be required to make the nen retain its power once it losses contact with the body of the creator, transformation to make it look like puppets and manipulation to control the nen (at least that is how understand the whole thing).

[Phantron]

It can't really be materialization. Materialization creates real objects which can be seen by normal people(like kurapika's chains). The puppets are made of nen and are not real objects nor can they be seen by people without nen. Emission and manipulation alone would not result in puppets though (my bad back there). Emission would be required to make the nen retain its power once it losses contact with the body of the creator, transformation to make it look like puppets and manipulation to control the nen (at least that is how understand the whole thing).

It's safe to assume that the Royals are maxed out in all schools of aura. If Pitou is a level 100 Special user, then he also has level 80 manipulation and level 80 materialize, and so on. It's also clear that the Royals start at a level of aura mastery far above human limitations, so most inconsistencies can be explained simply by the fact that they're not on a level playing field compared to the human characters. I mean, Pitou is Special type, which means Strengthen is his worst school, and yet he can take a hit from Netero without any observeable damage. Look at fights like Kuroro versus Zeno, or Kurapika versus Ubogin. There's a pretty consistent theme that anyone who is far away from the Strengthen school has an extremely hard time defending physical attacks from an enemy that's much closer to Strengthen school than you. In fact, if you believe that Netero is supposed to be stronger than the Royals overall, Pitou should absolutely get bulldozed in that brief exchange since you're looking at a 1.16 modifier (Special) versus 2.0 (Strengthen). It's quite clear the Royal's innate abilities lets them overcome the usual problems a human user might face.

[kkck]

I think you have a little misunderstanding of how reinforcement works. Just covering your body with nen is not in itself reinforcement. When it comes to a punch you have your natural physical strength, the amount of regular nen around you (which anyone can do) and then you have the reinforcement part. Basically, nen in itself makes everyone stronger just the same regardless of the type of nen. Using the actual reinforcement is what makes the difference. The explanation kurapica's master gave involved people with similar bodies. In this regard what made the difference was nen alone. The first part was the nen charged fist (1) and then the reinforcement (0.6 or 1 depending on the type). Under this logic, uvo did not defend with 1 from kurapica nen charge punch, he defended with 0.Of course, uvo's body is most likely stronger than kurapica's but in turn the manga has made it painfully clear that regardless of the amount of physical strength you have even a light punch can cause HUGE amounts of damage if you don't use nen. Remember when bisk was training the kids in greed island? Bisk fist was moving at a extremely slow speed and when gon took that punch with no aura he almost had his skull broken. Safe from extreme scenarios, physical strength will never be enough to resist nen.

I don't think you were very clear in your uvo point though, not sure how that defends what you are saying. Anyways, kurapica's chain forced uvo into zetsu, basically no aura. In this regard, uvo's completely nen devoid body was hurt by kurapica's nen charged punch (I don't think there was actual reinforcement there). Still, I don't think the manga has ever pointed towards hunter bodies being capable of withstanding any material known to man. For one thing, not all hunters have that sort of physical capacity. If anything, most hunters probably don't have bodies as strong as that of gon or killa. For another, nen has been shown to make an overwhelming difference when it comes to fighting any sort of purely physical strength. Remember sushi vs killua? Killua with his physical strength alone could move up to 16 tons and yet his 16 ton punch did not even properly hard sushi with a simple nen defense. I honestly doubt sushi even had as much physical strength as gon (which was significantly weaker than killua). Personally, I do think that bullets would very much hurt a hunter when aura is not an issue.

[luffyg2]

The arc is officially and it seems like the next arc is going to be about the election for the new president... I wonder if it's just going to be a vote or if its going to be some sort of battle or test like the hunter exam

[Phantron]

It's rather clear the amount you can strengthen yourself is tied to which school you are. Observe http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter...09/c083/3.html

If anybody could just use their full aura to defend himself, why is Ubogin unable to tell which school Kurapika came from? At one point, he actually thought Kurapika could be from the Strengthen school.

It's not that people outside the Strengthen school can't use it, but if you're say, Manipulation or Materialization, your ability to use such abilities would be a joke compared to someone who is naturally that type.

And go to this http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter...10/c084/9.html

Kurapika referred to the fact that he can overpower Ubogin's body as 'precious information'. If it is clear that anybody using aura can beat someone who is not, why on earth is this valuable information? Kurapika clearly thought it could be possible that someone's physical body alone can be strong enough to withstand his aura punch. This also reveals that the physical difference between him and Ubogin is actually not very big.

Even Kurapika, who has Absolute Time to help him bridge the gap, he was never able to do effective damage to Ubogin. A manipulation user would have the exact same issue, but assuming Absolute Time isn't something every random guy could have, they'd face an even bigger hurdle (1.36 versus 1.60). I guess you can say maybe someone can manipulate someone without ever needing to do something that potentially could cause damage, but if you go by that then you could say what if Gensuru can blow you up by just saying "Bomb Devil". There are a whole mess of abilities that'd be utterly unstoppable if there are no restrictions to them.

[kkck]

It's rather clear the amount you can strengthen yourself is tied to which school you are. Observe http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter...09/c083/3.html

If anybody could just use their full aura to defend himself, why is Ubogin unable to tell which school Kurapika came from? At one point, he actually thought Kurapika could be from the Strengthen school.

It's not that people outside the Strengthen school can't use it, but if you're say, Manipulation or Materialization, your ability to use such abilities would be a joke compared to someone who is naturally that type.

And go to this http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter...10/c084/9.html

Kurapika referred to the fact that he can overpower Ubogin's body as 'precious information'. If it is clear that anybody using aura can beat someone who is not, why on earth is this valuable information? Kurapika clearly thought it could be possible that someone's physical body alone can be strong enough to withstand his aura punch. This also reveals that the physical difference between him and Ubogin is actually not very big.

Even Kurapika, who has Absolute Time to help him bridge the gap, he was never able to do effective damage to Ubogin. A manipulation user would have the exact same issue, but assuming Absolute Time isn't something every random guy could have, they'd face an even bigger hurdle (1.36 versus 1.60). I guess you can say maybe someone can manipulate someone without ever needing to do something that potentially could cause damage, but if you go by that then you could say what if Gensuru can blow you up by just saying "Bomb Devil". There are a whole mess of abilities that'd be utterly unstoppable if there are no restrictions to them.

Again, you are misunderstanding reinforcement. ANYONE can use 100% of their aura to attack or defend (at least how I understand it). Basically, just covering your body with nen to attack or defend is not in itself enhancement. That much is simply ten or the more powerful ren or ken the more powerful version shown. Enhancers are able to enhance themselves beyond that 100% which is why they have the superior offensive and defensive abilities in comparison to other categories. Also, kurapica did not think someone's body can be strong enough to withstand his nen, that is not why he did what he did and I really don't know why you think that...

[Phantron]

Anyone can use 100% of their aura to attack/defend, but its effectiveness, if you use the Strengthen guy as 1.0, is scaled by the factor of how far away they're from the Strengthen school. Read what Machi has to say about Ubogin's attack: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter...09/c076/7.html

She says it's not even a special move, just a fist fully charged with aura.

If anybody can charge their fist to the same power regardless of school, what's the point of being a Strengthen type? Why can't Kurapika charge his fist with the same amount? Because he's not the right school to maximize such powers.

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that Kurapika didn't think anyone can withstand his fist when he said, "This is precious information" (that his fist can hurt a Spider without aura). Unless you think Kurapika is a newbie and has no idea what's going on, it has to be possible that with enough physical disparity, you could expect to find someone blocking your aura charged fist with just physical body.

It is actually rare to see hand to hand combat between people who are more than one step away from Strengthen. Whenever someone who is 2 or 3 steps away from Strength fight, the story usually mentions that fact. E.g. Kuroro versus Zeno (3 away versus 1 away). Even in the case of just 1 away, note that neither Killua nor Hisoka was able to block Razor's ball head on. Only Gon can do that.