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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
"you should really reference other parts of the series to give more weight to your argument."
no i dont need to do that.
that chapter and that page is more than enough.
"then you'd realize that ikki has some level of feeling towards the other girls as well with just as meaningful albeit different connections to them."
see we are not talking about the same thing. im talking specifically about "romantic feelings"... you are talking about feelings in general.
Last edited by emolibon; October 07, 2011 at 10:29 AM.
@Suahnir: True. And Ikki's feelings could have changed. I think they've been fluctuating, to a degree. First it was Ringo, though he thought he only saw her as a sister (beginning of the series, up until Simca came along). Then he started to idolize Simca, but I think the one he loved was still Ringo and he was thinking it was Simca because he still considered Ringo his sister in his head. Then came Kururu. His feelings shifted from Ringo to Kururu and back again. That's what I think. All three of them love him, but like I and others have said, Kururu also feels respect and a sort of friendly rivalry towards him which she can settle for, which is why she's sacrificing her love for him to let Ringo be with him, so she can be his rival and Tuner. I'm not against IkkixRingo, either; I'm just down about the fact that the pacing of Ikki's feelings shifting from Kururu to Ringo was too quick. It felt rushed.
@Emolibon: Seriously, just regarding the last 3 to 4 chapters and disregarding the rest of the series doesn't help anybody.
For the record, about the Tuning bit, do also notice that Kururu was unavailable as a Tuner since she was linking with Skylink as Chronos, so they were having Nana fill in. Ikki chose Ringo over Nana, not Kururu. Ringo is Ikki's lover, and Kururu is his Tuner. [Just trying to reply to that whole bit in last weeks about "The King made his choice".]
Anyway, yeah, let's just leave it at that either the end of the series or until they bring up Ikki's Regalia and/or Tuning again.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 07, 2011 at 10:36 AM.
Seriously, just regarding the last 3 to 4 chapters and disregarding the rest of the series doesn't help anybody.
didnt like the last 3 chapters did you??? sorry i did.
seriously, regarding only the past and disregarding the present doesnt help either.
or even better regarding the past thats convinient for you and disregarding the rest doesnt help even more (as i saw you post at mangafox too, so you already know that the one with the nickname synxx there already posted LOTS of things about ikkixringo "past").
anyway let me repeat what i said in the last post, im not talking here about ikkis feelings in general for other girls (like respect or admiration)... im talking only about ikkis romantic feelings here.
so of course ikki has feelings for other girls just like he has feelings for the other guys in his team... feelings of friendship, admiration, respect... and so on... but those are not the feelings im talking about.
Last edited by emolibon; October 07, 2011 at 11:22 AM.
You just keep on misunderstanding me. Stop putting words into my mouth. I did like the last three chapters. Understand that I don't have a problem with IkkixRingo. I only have a problem with the development being way too quick, since his romantic feelings seem to have changed too quickly; as I said, it went from Ringo to Kururu, then back again, but the trip back was too fast. It hasn't been that long in the manga between now and when he "saw" Kururu in his heart. But, again, I don't have a problem with IkkixRingo, just as much I wouldn't have had a problem with IkkixSimca. And Kururu is still his Link Tuner. And also, didn't you notice how many times and on how many points I agreed with Synxx on at Mangafox? Or are you deliberately ignoring that so that you can attack me about all this?
And anyway, again, let's just wait and see. I'm still waiting to see if Kururu is really still Ikki's Tuner, and if that "date" with Simca is still going to happen (it'll be funny if Ringo gets between them).
Anyway, let's drop this and go back to just talking about Ikki's relationships with others in general. So far, I agree completely with what Suahnir has on the first post. But Suahnir, I think that, below Ringo's name, you need to put "Ikki's lover". Or are you waiting until the end of the manga for more confirmation (not that that's needed, after the kiss they shared)?
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 07, 2011 at 06:29 PM.
and its not that his feelings "changed", but instead they were never feelings of "love" to begin with... they were feelings of respect as ikki himself said.
and the scene that kururu fans love to point, the one where ikki thinks about kururu... i think that the guys here before me already made that scene clear... red herring is a plot device used A LOT in many mangas, books, movies and so on. its not something new.
one more thing... i know im impossible... but i really need to understand that.. you said:
"It hasn't been that long in the manga between now and when he "saw" Kururu in his heart."
well... huh???... lets see... that was ch143... we are as today in ch330... the release date for that ch143 was something around 2009...
so define for me what you would consider "hasn't been that long"???
yes... im the worst.. i know... sorry for that.
Last edited by emolibon; October 07, 2011 at 10:26 PM.
dragon meant that it hasn't been that long timeline wise in the whole story. keep in mind that its pretty much been 6 months time in the air gear world since the story started. basing the duration of time on how many chapters isn't the best way to go about counting... the whole sleipnir battle lasted less than 5 minutes but that was a good half a year of chapters. the whole battleship arc is over the course of an hour (technically 3 but o!g really failed on the clock timer - first shot of the timer of rika's impending doom was at 3 hours, but the next time they showed that timer, it lost 2 hours, plus sleipnir vs koga was at 9pm and sf vs. genesis at midnight yet all the battles on the ship weren't even 20 minutes).
anyways, i'm going to hold off changing ringo's status until the next time we see ikki and ringo together sometime after the sf vs. genesis match. one scene may show their feelings but only when it is shown again is it solidfied - simply because we did get a scene of ikki thinking about who he had feelings for and it was shown to be kururu yet many chapters later we pretty much have ikki hooking up with ringo and who knows what will happen with that date he still owes simca. o!g may still f**k with us and pull some crap out of his behind.
should i add 'former brother figure' to sora? he kinda was to ikki before he revealed his evilness... i also don't want to add all the 'small fry' storm riders that have really not been in any spotlight since their match with ikki - there's just too many of them. however there are some key but not prominent characters that have played a bigger role in ikki's life than we think - like the principle and the big lady that's the principle of kururu's school. those two did give bagram to ikki and koga's base and have given the kind of support that you could liken to the wise hermit the hero consults at crucial times for guidance, but i don't know what to label them.
Let's try and keep the discussion to a respective and calm manner... no need to get so heated over other people's opinions.
And yeah, I agree about adding "former brother-figure" under Sora's name, since Ikki did say he thought of and loved him as if he were his real brother. Sora's a real freaking evil jerk if he betrayed that kind of love and trust, though (did I word that right? I'm worried). Darn it.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 08, 2011 at 06:41 AM.
about changing ringo status in your first post... dont worry about that, its not like changing that or not will change anything thats already happening in the manga. like i said before ch329 seals it.
about the "time" thing, keep in mind what i said, after all almost 2 years is a long time for us, but its also a long time for the one writing the manga, "oh great" himself.
Last edited by emolibon; October 08, 2011 at 08:36 AM.
But still, he could have kept notes to keep himself from messing up. If he kept notes, but still messed it up, or if he didn't keep notes and that's why he messed up, then that's his problem.
He did also change some other things, like the design of the Gem Regalia. And before the revelation about Sora's true colors and his betrayal, he says to Ikki that a man came up to him, when he was in his Teens, and gave him the Wind Regalia. Dr. Minami, in chapter 329, says that the ATs the 28 First Gen. Gravity Children were wearing inside the Tower are what people now refer to as "Regalia," which would mean that Sora already had the Wind Regalia while he was in the Tower, and also, when he and Nike fought Gazelle, he was a kid, not in his teens yet. And the man who was shown in the flashback from the time Ikki was being told about, looked a lot like Dr. Minami from the time of Brain Charger Project days. Yet he actually asks him if he's Sora.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 08, 2011 at 10:52 AM.
it still holds true to what dragon said that alot of back and forth has happened in the span of 6 months time for the ag universe. any real person wouldn't have such constant fluctuation of romantic feelings unless they shallow or if they genuinely feel something deep enough for all of them that they get
even if o!g fails at keeping track of stuff, you would think that his editor would at least point out a few things. while sora's flashback of how he got his regalia is iffy in my mind (he could have made it up), the rest of the stuff is pretty fail on o!g. about dr. minami, i'm gonna put him on the list now because he definitely has a connection to ikki but what exactly that is, we are not sure. oh and that assistant of his we saw in gazelle's flashback, noyamano, i think she is rika's mom - don't be fooled by how young she looks, i think o!g was just going more for bombshell looks than anything and you can still look that good in your late 20s and early 30s, besides when rika was 15 she looked more like 19. what if ikki and rika really are siblings or at least half siblings through the mom? i could see that happening...Quote:
there is no "fluctuation" to ikkis romantic feelings (he just took some time to understand the meaning of those feelings).
its like you said suarhnir: "then you'd realize that ikki has some level of feeling towards the other girls as well with just as meaningful albeit different connections to them."
as you said he has feelings for the other girls albeit they are different kinds of connections... love, respect, admiration...
so you already said what i was saying... feelings yes but different kind of feelings.
anyway oh great was nice enough to explain it all for everyone.
as ikki said: respect is his word for kururu.
and as ikki showed: kiss is his action for ringo.
so no reason to be more clear than that.
Last edited by emolibon; October 08, 2011 at 02:09 PM.
Except that while Gazelle was a Gravity Child with some of the properties Brain Charger (she was the first Thorn Queen, and she obviously didn't need Tuning for her Regalia, so she was definitely a Gravity Child). She had the Heart's Wing, and the Wings of Beginning; and she was the "original," the one that Koro-jii referred to in the flashback that was shown in the Kogarasumaru vs. Sleipnir battle as the one Dr. Minami created with the Heart's Wing, and the technology that allowed for the "flying software" to be copied or download, and then he mentioned that the "original" was both a Brain Charger and a Gravity Child. Gazelle was the "original," the one from whom the Sleipnir Brain Chargers got the artificial feeling of wanting to fly, the Heart's Wing, and she was a Gravity Child who had been Brain Charged as a result of the Heart's Wing; her body wasn't as sturdy as that of a Gravity Child, either (stated by Sora in that flashback). Lind was Brain Charger Prototype #0, as in, the first Brain Charger, and he was Brain Charged using Gazelle's personality and memories. Gazelle had the same "twinkle-eye" as the Brain Chargers, but she hadn't really been Brain Charged deliberately; she had those eyes because she had the Heart's Wing.
Ikki is probably similar to her, except that he could be a Brain Charger with some properties of a Gravity Child. Either that or something else entirely, with the best characteristics from both Gravity Children and Brain Chargers. But either way, I do think Ikki is something special, and isn't really a normal human. He has the Hawk's Eye and he seemed to have developed a love for the sky, thanks to Ringo showing him the giant crow (North Star) flying with its kids, and all. I think Ikki has the Heart's Wing, though it be dormant since, if it were active, Ikki wouldn't be a normal human anymore, his Brain Charger personality would've awakened like it was for Rika. The Heart's Wing is the Virgin Blade, the main characteristic of a Brain Charger, and Genesis caused Rika's to awaken when they brainwashed her; that's what turned her into a Brain Charger. But Ikki's Heart's Wing trait, if he has one, must be really strong, if he already loves flying even though the trait hasn't been awakened in him yet. [It's because of Dr. Minami saying that Genesis had found out about the fact that Rika was born with Gazelle's Virgin Blade spear already inside her, that I'm thinking this. Awakening that trait turned her into a Brain Charger. It was the same for Gazelle, like I said; Dr. Minami probably made her as a Gravity Child at first, and then he experimented on her to give her the Heart's Wing/Virgin Blade (I'm thinking the two terms are synonymous, since Arthur referred to the Virgin Blade as the "flying heart"--that is, unless he was saying it separately. He separated the two terms with a comma, which could either be that he was describing the former, or that he was separating the terms to differentiate between what they refer to), which turned her into a Brain Charger who was also Gravity Child; two in one.]
Koro-jii also said that the Gravity Children are just containers, and that, even if they have the ability to fly, they don't have the heart to. That "heart to fly" refers to the Heart's Wing, except it's a trait that is given artificially, like I said. They did say that a lot of the First Gen. Gravity Children didn't like the time they'd spent inside the Tower, since they felt like they were at the bottom of a well. A lot of the First Gen. Gravity Children never picked up ATs again after they left the Tower, precisely because they didn't enjoy flying. The ones from the First Generation that are still doing AT, are the ones who must have naturally developed a love for the sky, which isn't the same as the Heart's Wing.
Anyway, as for Rika; her brainwashed Brain Charger self called Dr. Minami "father". I'm not sure if it's because he's her biological father (which would mean that the other Rika didn't know, for some reason, since she always called him "Uncle Minami"), or if it's because he experimented on her while she was young to find out if she had the Heart's Wing or not, and she somehow remembered, and considers him her father. Rika is either Ikki's full-on sister, his half-sister, or his cousin.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 08, 2011 at 06:08 PM.
just throwing this here since it fits best here...
supplementary info from volume 35:
kururu - ikki's tuner and pledge queen. however due to being connected to the ship's tuning system, she is unable to tune.
ringo - thorn queen. acts as the tuner in kururu's place to tune the storm regalia. was nominated by ikki to be the tuner.
so in the words of o!g, kururu is still officially ikki's tuner and ringo was filling in for this time due to the circumstances. hopefully this will clear up that side of things.
Thanks. And Kururu also admitted while Ikki and Ringo were battling Sora and Rika inside the Tower, that she does love Ikki. Either that or it was implied--I don't remember for sure which it was, but there's something that makes it pretty obvious that she does love him. Romantically. She was just being careful to not say anything in front of Ringo. Infer for yourself why she did that.
And the manga will end after the end of Chapter 357; I think it's going to be hard to resolve the whole thing with the eight Regalia, like making another Flame Regalia for Kazu to use, within those remaining chapters, unless they do a time-skip.
Also, this is a Shōnen manga, with a Romance tag tacked on, and Ringo was the first girl introduced. Those of you who are familiar with the TV Trope of "First Girl Wins" should know what I'm talking about (oops, gave it away by mentioning the name), but yeah--basically, it means that, out of the Shōnen hero's love interests (if he has more than one), the first girl to be properly introduced in the manga is the one who will win. The first one introduced was Ringo, so it should've been obvious no matter what that Ringo would be the one to hook up with Ikki, not Kururu or Simca. Simca is the mistress, Ringo is the lover and future wife, and Kururu is the Link Tuner. Damn, lucky bastard has a harem . . . let's not forget the leader of the former team SabelTiger (they started another team, with the same members, and are now called "Pink Panther"). She's another hottie, so he's got four hotties in love with him.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; April 16, 2012 at 12:17 PM.