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Thread: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

  1. #16
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    excellent point about Teresa, Super Angillis, hehe. Also, Irene could very well be a rank 1 herself. "It", Teresa+irene, was just a bit weaker than if Teresa and Priscilla could get along as ranks 1 and 2, with Priscilla not being ordered to execute teresa because -IF Scenario- teresa hadn't "betrayed" the IronClad Rule
    Yeah. I mean, I've already argued that Irene actually is a rank 1. I'd argue that Irene > Rosemary. I mean, we never saw any of Rosemary's claymore techniques, but I don't know how she's standing up to QS. Rosemary, according to the data books, is an immensely skilled claymore, but I just don't know. I mean, let's even say that it's Irene against Awakened Rosemary. I mean, Teresa allowed Rosemary to grab her, knowing that she could "twist off" Rosemary's arm at any time. Irene doesn't have that crazy amount of physical strength, so she'd just use QS to destroy the arm that came to grab her.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    @FrostyMouse
    You're making an unfair comparison. Even Clarice or a human would be able to chop Teresa to pieces if she didn't fight back (and claymores are practically indestructible and would chop almost anything). I'm pretty sure that Teresa would not allow Rosemary to hit her if she was using claymore. Rosemary is obviously more powerful than Irene (do we know weak #1s? No, these warriors are always exceptional). Irene was a very strong #3 and a strong #2 but all of this was thanks to a technique that allowed her to store all of her youma powers in an arm. If she awakened, she might have been weaker than she was as a Claymore since she would not be able to concentrate all of her power in one part of her body anymore.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    for my own view, on these speculatory comparisons and of characters:

    Teresa:

    Teresa is Teresa, she's so powerful, she knew she was completely safe against an AO, AO Rosemary, that she could allow AO Rosemary to bash her body around. Maybe it has to do with Teresa's PYSA, in that she could tell what AO Rosemary was going to do, in other words, if Rosemary had tried doing something that could endanger Teresa, she wouldn't have allowed Rosemary to do it.

    Irene:

    I think she's a good candidate for being a rank 1 and here's why

    1. She just had bad luck being overshadowed by "monsters" Teresa and then Priscilla

    2. Her level of control of Yoki, and her own calmness as well, is astounding, as Clare said, ~"The fact you can do the QS with no signs of struggle/effort upon your face, makes you a Monster, Irene!"

    3. The QS is a very advanced and powerful Ability.

    4. While the QS is very powerful, Irene herself is quite capable, and also we seem to almost never see the QS being used by Irene, as most of the time it appears Irene is doing (normal) sword skill combat, we actually rarely see for certain the QS in action by Irene.

    There's only 6 instances of certainty of QS use by Irene that I can recall:

    *Against the 2 NYs in the "Yoma Nest Town"

    *Inside the Inn against Teresa

    *Against Teresa on the bridge, when we see the ground around Teresa being sliced up (and I think this is where Priscilla comes up behind Teresa, trying to decapitate Teresa from behind, but Teresa avoids Priscilla's attack, slices up Irene, and backflips or whatever away from both of them, holding up her bloody sword, as Irene collapses behind Priscilla, Priscilla turns and weeps for Irene, as Teresa pwns Sophia and Noel off-screen, Priscilla then goes after Teresa and gets pwned off-screen, Irene looks up from the ground, realizing she obviously again didn't understand how supreme Teresa was/is, lol. Teresa walks over to decapitate the crying/fearful Priscilla, but decides not to do it. Priscilla then snaps and goes after Teresa outside of the town as Orcish Priscilla, and we know the rest... lol)

    *Irene against Ophelia

    *Irene "against" (practicing/testing) the tree

    *Irene "against" (training) Clare

    4A. Irene's speed, she was able to rush over and save Claymore Priscilla from being decapitated by Teresa

    4B. Irene's leadership and strategic abilities

    4C. Irene's strength, she was breaking the ground up!

    4D. She's superior to Sophia and Noel, as they said, ~"You firmly have the rank 2 position"

    4E. Great Yoki Sensing Ability (she was able to find Teresa as well as later sense Clare-Teresa as well as sensing Rafaela's true power level) and great Yoki Suppression Ability (SAO Priscilla didn't know that Irene was still alive).

    4F. Etc...

    Rosemary:

    she was stated to be a rank 1 Claymore, and that's all we've got about her, there's no reason we have to assume she's not a rank 1 Claymore.

    Also, there is no knowledge to how powerful she (as an AO) is, despite those who try to argue that she's weaker (or stronger) than Isley, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, Beth, or whoever else is a rank 1. We simply have no evidence either way on this matter.

    thus, it's only fair/reasonable to assume she's just as powerful as is Isley, Riful, Luciela, and etc, until we get evidence to whether she's more or less powerful than they are.

    ---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral
    If she awakened, she might have been weaker than she was as a Claymore since she would not be able to concentrate all of her power in one part of her body anymore.
    I actually disagree with this, and here's why:

    1. Isley's Arm Modes while in his Humanoid form, clearly he's Focusing his Yoki into his arms, just as Irene is doing with her arm in her use of the QS.

    2. Riful's able to use her Ribbon-Tentacles while remaining in hre Humanoid form, suggestive that she's Focusing her Yoki, as well

    3. Luciela is able to have only her bottom (LOLOLOL) Awakened in the form of her two tails while still in her Humanoid form, clearly showing that Luciela can Focus Yoki (into her bottom - LOLOLOLOL) just as Irene is Focusing her Yoki into her Arm for her QS.

    4. Dauf is able to use his Rods while still in his Humanoid form.

    5. HA Clare is able to Focus her Yoki into her legs so that only her legs Awaken, just as Irene is Focusing her Yoki into her Arm for her QS.

    6. HA Clare is able to Focus her Yoki into her Arms/Shoulders so that only her Arms/Shoulders Awaken, just as Irene is Focusing her Yoki into her Arm for her QS.

    7. and probably many more examples
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 09, 2011 at 02:15 PM.
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  7. #19
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    @FrostyMouse
    You're making an unfair comparison. Even Clarice or a human would be able to chop Teresa to pieces if she didn't fight back (and claymores are practically indestructible and would chop almost anything). I'm pretty sure that Teresa would not allow Rosemary to hit her if she was using claymore. Rosemary is obviously more powerful than Irene (do we know weak #1s? No, these warriors are always exceptional). Irene was a very strong #3 and a strong #2 but all of this was thanks to a technique that allowed her to store all of her youma powers in an arm. If she awakened, she might have been weaker than she was as a Claymore since she would not be able to concentrate all of her power in one part of her body anymore.
    Possibly.

    The databook says that AO Rosemary has SSS+ Yoki, I think, but that doesn't mean that AO Rosemary is comparable. We didn't see a special ability.

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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyMouse
    Rosemary, according to the data books, is an immensely skilled claymore,
    Which databook is this? I haven't seen any info on her abilites and it's not in the wiki which is usually very good with this kind of stuff.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 09, 2011 at 06:54 PM.

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  11. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    @HK

    There is a difference between concentrating all your power and partially awakening some parts. So far we've never seen anyone besides Clare and Irene doing that and certainly no AB. What AOs, Clare and shrimp twins were doing was just using small part of their awakened forms' power. That's why Isley and Luciella said they didn't want to ruin the scenery and were fighting in their human forms (at first at least), they knew that in their awakened forms the destruction to the area would be much worse. That's why Riful said that she didn't want things to escalate to such degree and didn't want her power measured. If she had had all power stored in her awakened arm (the one she stopped Jean from killing Duff with) Alicia would already know her power but that wasn't the case. However, QS is a technique where all power is used and stored in an arm. As a result someone has a super strong arm and human-like the rest of the body (at least when compared to the power of the arm). If Riful could concentrate all her power in an arm her mere touch would obliterate Jean. So, if what Irene and Rafaela said is true (and we have no reason to doubt it really) Irene would be the last person to profit from awakening. Sure, she would have a tougher body and more power but I doubt she could do her technique anymore, there is no indication of that.

    @FrostyMouse
    Rosemary is mentioned in one place only in databooks - in Teresa's section in databook 1. And there are no stats of her. However, it's certain she must have better stats than Duff has and Duff is super powerful (but not even close to AOs). In this subforum, in databooks thread I've given links to all databooks. And what it says there is:

    "Great Talent

    Entrusted with the black letter of the former number 1
    Though she didn't have a special intimacy with the former number 1 Rosemaria, she accomplished this mission quickly. This denoted her self-consciousness about being the new number 1."
    Last edited by Goral; October 09, 2011 at 11:03 PM.

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  13. #22
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted FrostyMouse's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    Oh, you are right, Goral. It had been so long since I'd looked at the databooks that I'd forgotten that Rosemary wasn't in there. I was remembering Hilda's stats, and she actually does have SSS+ Yoki as an AB.

    My apologies for misleading anyone.

    On the topic of Hilda, however, I still wonder what rank she held when she awakened. I mean, Hilda possesses SSS+ Yoki as an AB, which is the same as what Dauf possessed, and Dauf was a #3. Ophelia's a #4 at the time that she awakens, but AB Ophelia only has SS Yoki. That could just be an indication of Ophelia's actual strength.

    However, I suppose that debating any amount of Yoki as an AB is sort of pointless.

    Moderator message by: HegemonKhan
    Hilda was a rank 6 as a Claymore. Upon killing Awakened Hilda, rank 8 HA Miria was given Hilda's rank 6 position, becoming the rank 6 HA Miria that we know
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 10, 2011 at 06:17 PM.

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  15. #23
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Claymore/119/30

    You know, I wondering if Dae was the mastermind that made the 3 AO. You think about it, since those 3 AO's are gone he's trying to create 3 more. Just look at his intent?

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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    But what would his motive be?

    What does it mean? It means your about to get your butt kicked!

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  19. #25
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    HK, while that's true, I was more or less under the impression that Hilda would've risen in rank by the time she awakened, so we can't say for sure that she was a #6 when she was killed, unless I'm just misremembering some page that actually says that she's #6 at the time. I know that Hilda was #6 when Miria met her.

    Edit:

    I had thought that, but I'd forgotten that Rafaela was #5 at the time and that Ophelia was #4. Somehow, I had thought that Ophelia was like #6 or #7 at the time, so I must have misremembered it. So, yeah, Hilda had to have remained #6.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 11, 2011 at 01:44 AM. Reason: nvm

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  21. #26
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    Ignoring that all the more powerful ranks are already taken, your point that Hilda could have become more powerful than a rank 6 is valid (indeed you're right that Hilda's rank 6 was mentioned -I think- when Miria was still rank 17 and first admiring/befriending Hilda)... on the surface..., however, the manga does not give any mention of it, and thus for all we know, Hilda could just as well have become a rank 1 in power, or heck, even more powerful than Teresa, just as much as your point that she might be at most a few ranks more powerful now than her previous power of a rank 6. Thus, while it's possible for Hilda to have become more powerful than a rank 6, she could just as much have become even more powerful than Teresa just as well, and due to this I feel your point is moot, and thus actually not valid. Anything is possible when talking about an uncertainty. So, for me, Hilda remains a rank 6, unless the manga were to say or show otherwise. Sorry for the long counter argument and explanation of mine to your possibility of Hilda having become more powerful than a rank 6, this was as concise as I could be to make my case or argument, lol.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 11, 2011 at 01:50 AM.
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  23. #27
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    I suppose it's time ZERO PHOENIX has returned.



    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    1) Cassandra awaken and who will kill her?
    There are many candidates. Could be Helen, Deneve, Dietrich, a combination thereof, or Roxanne. There are a lot of our leading ladies who we have not seen in quite awhile.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    3) How did Roxanne died or what is her cause?
    Too early to speculate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    4) Will Raftela survive from her injuries?
    Yagi has been reading too much Kubo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    5) How will Deneve group affect the outcome of the battle? Will they be fighting Cassandra awaken form?
    Undoubtedly



    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    6) Will Hysteria remember herself and awaken too?
    7) Will Roxanne awaken also?
    All three will awaken. I'm fairly certain Dae made that clear in the last chapter. "That's the first one of them," upon Cassandra's awakening. As readers, we are to interpret this as foreshadowing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    8) Will Miria awaken by awakening so much to fight Hysteria?
    That would be fun to see.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    9) Did Dae do something to the 3 Claymore differently as an outcome?
    You'll have to be more specific. Are you asking if he put in more care to resurrect "this" number one rather than "that" number one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    10) Will Cassandra revert back and help fight with the Rebel to purge the MOB?
    Of course not. She's going to awaken, SPAM a bunch of throwaway characters, none of whom are actually going to die oddly enough, and then she's going to get killed by Helen and Deneve.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe7133 View Post
    http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Claymore/119/30

    You know, I wondering if Dae was the mastermind that made the 3 AO. You think about it, since those 3 AO's are gone he's trying to create 3 more. Just look at his intent?
    In a way he is. Dae is responsible for the creation of the Claymores, therefore he is responsible for the creation of awakened beings, and he is thus responsible for creating the Abyssal Ones. I'm not knocking your argument or anything, merely pointing out that this isn't so much as a topic we need to discuss once we've applied the transitive property. The creation of all of these monsters, even Priscilla and the Destroyer were all either in sum or in part, masterminded by Dae.



    Quote Originally Posted by Super Angillis View Post
    But what would his motive be?
    This also hardly needs to be discussed. Not knocking you Super Angillis but I'm simply applying basic logic when it comes to Dae. Dae is a character type, the traditional mad scientist. As such he doesn't need a motive to just do things. At the same-time, Dae as a scientist does his research he creates these monsters to test the limits of science. His motives can be boiled down to curiosity or insanity. Hell it could be both for all we know.

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  25. #28
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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    The only thing that makes me wonder about Dae is that he has shown self preservation. He made that clear when he didn't travel with the Rod infected Raki. His motive may well be to see if he can do it, or how powerful his creations can get, but he doesn't see like the type who'd just put himself in a fatal situation.

    What does it mean? It means your about to get your butt kicked!

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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    Quote Originally Posted by ZP
    This also hardly needs to be discussed. Not knocking you Super Angillis but I'm simply applying basic logic when it comes to Dae. Dae is a character type, the traditional mad scientist. As such he doesn't need a motive to just do things. At the same-time, Dae as a scientist does his research he creates these monsters to test the limits of science. His motives can be boiled down to curiosity or insanity. Hell it could be both for all we know.
    And the war effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by SA
    The only thing that makes me wonder about Dae is that he has shown self preservation. He made that clear when he didn't travel with the Rod infected Raki. His motive may well be to see if he can do it, or how powerful his creations can get, but he doesn't see like the type who'd just put himself in a fatal situation.
    He's smart.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; October 19, 2011 at 08:45 PM.

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    Re: Claymore 119- The Hatreds Cause And Effect- Review

    Anyway Zero, thanks for answering all that, but it was only jibberish thoughts on my behalf that we weren't going to see Clare and Priscilla until next year. LOL!

    I'm thinking Yagi is trying to focus more on Miria battle for now, but this is taking quite a lot of time. He's also just bringing in more Power Card to the table so that the story would be interesting. Since the 3 AO is of no threat anymore.

    What surprises me is that how the AE can defeat the AO but the Claymore or Miria new army with the TAITS can defeat the AE.

    What also surprise me is that the 3 new #1 are just Claymore and wooping all the Miria/Claymore/TAITS. Now in theory if these 3 #1 Awaken and become AO, wouldn't that mean just defeat the purpose of what I said up there?

    AO < AE < Miria/Claymore/TAITS< 3 #1 < AO

    Well, this was interesting. Or was it that Lucilia/Isley/Riful just big bluffs. Nah! I doubt it.

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