About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Phantron]

If the statue uses manipulate or materialization Netero will suffer from a 0.36 penalty and the whole point of HXH is that you can't possibly be the best at something if you have to work against these modifiers.

There is a clear 'prime' phase in HXH and you only get weaker after that unless you somehow failed to master aura during your prime (clearly not the case here). Netero said he is only 50% compared to his prime. I take that to mean his physical conditions deteroiated to 50% of his prime and hence he lost 50% of his power, but even if you believe aura is the source of all power, then that statement has to mean his aura powers declined to 50% compared to his prime or the statement would make no sense.

I saw an interesting theory that surmises Netero uses the Kannon at a considerable penalty because he is old. When you see him first leave the training (in his prime), he used just hit fist and nobody saw any statue. At that point, his body was at his prime so all he need is the speed + the strength of body to overcome anyone. But as he gets old, his physical body loses power (HXH makes a clear distinction between a physically prime indivdual like Biscuit compare to normal people). If you assume aura-created object only depends on aura strength, then the Kannon never loses power just because his body declines (he might lose AP so the # of time he can use is reduced, but the power is still consistent). When Netero's in his prime, he doesn't need to do this because his Reinforced fist is stronger than any object he can create, so he didn't need to materialize a statue in his prime. Note that Netero was already an old man by the time Zeno was even born. All the characters that give testimony to Netero's power saw it when Netero is past his prime.

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------

I went back to some of the older stuff and noticed that fatigue/endurance is always a huge factor in HXH. You usually don't see its effect in actual numbers, but all the characters outside of perhaps Meryem who can be considered as having infinite endurance definitely plans around it.

When Netero was exterminating the commander level ants, we see that he calls Morel and Novu with a message that basically says, "I'm in great shape today, bring another squad over". This implies that if he somehow had a bad day or inexplicably got hurt, he'd need time to rest to heal. It's hard to imagine any of those commander level ants to be actually a threat to him, and I doubt he'd need to use the Kannon on those guys and is keeping his AP expenditure at the minimal level necessary. Even then, he is not able to fight them continously without break. If that was possible, he could just walk straight up to the patrolling Ants and kill them all anyway. At that point Netero already knew the Royals aren't leaving the nest, so there's no risk fighting any of the patrolling guys that are beyond Pitou's patrol radius. From this we can see that Netero at least considered the possibilty of running out of energy/AP if he has to fight multiple squads back to back.

Even Yupi used up about half of his AP reserve in the 10 minutes of combat (Potclean had about 350K the last time we saw it, he has 700K estimated AP), so if it was possible to fight him another 10 minutes he'd be out of AP even without Potclean's help. Of course nobody could fight him for 20 minutes, but even a character with seemingly incomprehensible AP reserves compared to any human can run out. This means when you deal with human characters, you can't assume the guy can just keep on attacking until the opponent dies. It has to be possible the attacker run out of AP first. Although you can't exactly model this, it has to be a possibilty. This is why using the right type of skill is important, because even if you learned a powerful move in a shcool you're not good at, there's a good chance you'll run out of AP using that move before your opponent is defeated. Granted, in Netero's case it's hard to imagine another human have the durabilty to make him run otu of AP, but he's not exactly fighting characters with human level of endurance, either.

[kkck]

Well, that statue works without touching him, so it's emission. Kurapica had the biggest issue with Judgement chain because he needs Emission to use it, and Conjurers are the worse at Emission. Manipulators can use their skills at a distance given conditions are met, but they're right besides emission and should have some skill in it. But that statue could be manipulated by praying (it moved immitating Netero, so it was manipulation and not condition).

The only option is that it was Netero's Nen emitted into the shape of a statue, not a real object. No conditions could be applyed to it for a special effect. It just emitted Netero's Nen for him, given it was a bigger body and should fare better than his old one.

I don't think it was ever said kurapica had trouble with the chain due to emission. If anything, since the chain is materialized there is no emission involved in it to begin with. Emission applies to projecting aura so it would never be an issue for a materialized object since it is not aura but an object.

I would think that controlling the statue through prayers would work as a condition or proof or resolve though. In that regard controlling it that way could easily result in greater speed and attack power.

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

If the statue uses manipulate or materialization Netero will suffer from a 0.36 penalty and the whole point of HXH is that you can't possibly be the best at something if you have to work against these modifiers.

There is a clear 'prime' phase in HXH and you only get weaker after that unless you somehow failed to master aura during your prime (clearly not the case here). Netero said he is only 50% compared to his prime. I take that to mean his physical conditions deteroiated to 50% of his prime and hence he lost 50% of his power, but even if you believe aura is the source of all power, then that statement has to mean his aura powers declined to 50% compared to his prime or the statement would make no sense.

I saw an interesting theory that surmises Netero uses the Kannon at a considerable penalty because he is old. When you see him first leave the training (in his prime), he used just hit fist and nobody saw any statue. At that point, his body was at his prime so all he need is the speed + the strength of body to overcome anyone. But as he gets old, his physical body loses power (HXH makes a clear distinction between a physically prime indivdual like Biscuit compare to normal people). If you assume aura-created object only depends on aura strength, then the Kannon never loses power just because his body declines (he might lose AP so the # of time he can use is reduced, but the power is still consistent). When Netero's in his prime, he doesn't need to do this because his Reinforced fist is stronger than any object he can create, so he didn't need to materialize a statue in his prime. Note that Netero was already an old man by the time Zeno was even born. All the characters that give testimony to Netero's power saw it when Netero is past his prime.

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------

I went back to some of the older stuff and noticed that fatigue/endurance is always a huge factor in HXH. You usually don't see its effect in actual numbers, but all the characters outside of perhaps Meryem who can be considered as having infinite endurance definitely plans around it.

When Netero was exterminating the commander level ants, we see that he calls Morel and Novu with a message that basically says, "I'm in great shape today, bring another squad over". This implies that if he somehow had a bad day or inexplicably got hurt, he'd need time to rest to heal. It's hard to imagine any of those commander level ants to be actually a threat to him, and I doubt he'd need to use the Kannon on those guys and is keeping his AP expenditure at the minimal level necessary. Even then, he is not able to fight them continously without break. If that was possible, he could just walk straight up to the patrolling Ants and kill them all anyway. At that point Netero already knew the Royals aren't leaving the nest, so there's no risk fighting any of the patrolling guys that are beyond Pitou's patrol radius. From this we can see that Netero at least considered the possibilty of running out of energy/AP if he has to fight multiple squads back to back.

Even Yupi used up about half of his AP reserve in the 10 minutes of combat (Potclean had about 350K the last time we saw it, he has 700K estimated AP), so if it was possible to fight him another 10 minutes he'd be out of AP even without Potclean's help. Of course nobody could fight him for 20 minutes, but even a character with seemingly incomprehensible AP reserves compared to any human can run out. This means when you deal with human characters, you can't assume the guy can just keep on attacking until the opponent dies. It has to be possible the attacker run out of AP first. Although you can't exactly model this, it has to be a possibilty. This is why using the right type of skill is important, because even if you learned a powerful move in a shcool you're not good at, there's a good chance you'll run out of AP using that move before your opponent is defeated. Granted, in Netero's case it's hard to imagine another human have the durabilty to make him run otu of AP, but he's not exactly fighting characters with human level of endurance, either.

If the statue is emitted, then he should not experience a power loss from manipulation. Thanks to his emission he would be able to maintain the full power of the statue at all times easily. Now, if he is an emitter then he is already has it in him to acquire 80% worth of manipulation which is quite a bit. The manipulation which would be required is in itself quite simple as he quite literally simply moves the statue around which in conjunction with his 80% worth of manipulation skills should work quite well specially once the prayer factor is added. If on the other hand netero was an emitter he would in turn have better control of the statue perhaps but in turn he would experience a very real decrease in power due to him having natural limits in emission (it can't be simple to emit something that huge with such a form). Overall, emission being his primary nen type makes more sense than manipulation IMO.

I don't think aura in itself would become weaker once one grows old. I do believe aura at large remains as powerful unless you fail to train to maintain it (which I doubt was the case with netero). I do think your physical condition should deteriorate which should have an effect on the overall aura combat. Netero was not in his prime because his aura got weaker but because his body got older. Even if his aura remains the same his body is not as strong or fast as before which will result in an observable difference. I don't think was THAT overwhelmingly weaker than before though.

[Phantron]

After he said Pitou might be stronger than him, Netero said that he is probably only as strong as Morel or Novu, because he's only at 50% of his prime now. Now his assessment relative to others can easily be too modest, but there's no reason for him to lie about how much his power has declined unless his goal was to scare the young ones into thinking he was once super powerful. After all, none of the observer in HXH has ever seen him in his prime (Netero was an old man since Zeno was born).

The penalty for school is squared. You get it once for level, and a second time for power. A level 100 Reinforcement user can use only up to level 80 Emission, and his level 80 Emission has 80% the power compared to a natural level 80 Emission user. Since we don't know what the levels actually mean, we'll just have to assume they have equal weight or it'd be impossible to actually know what '80% of level 80' even means. Actually, 0.8^2 = 0.64 and that makes a lot of sense. If Netero is down to 50% of his prime, that means he's better off using an attack equivalent of 64% of his prime instead, even if it's less efficient. This is assuming that aura created object do not decline due to age (which seems reasonable). That is, at his prime at 100%, his Reinforced fist should be far stronger than the statue's power (otherwise he wouldn't be a Reinforcement user), but due to factor beyond his control (old age), his physical ability declined to 50%, so at this point he's better off using another school that doesn't dependent on physical power.

[kkck]

Wait, are you saying netero is a reinforcer? Why would you think that? I also have my doubts about developing a hatsu at such an advanced age to deal with the situation you describe. If netero was a enhancer then he would still be better of using reinforcement to fight rather than developing an emission hatsu which requires manipulation. After all, he would have 80% of emission and only 60% of manipulation to control it. Even with the added prayer factor it would seem difficult. I don't see how he could possibly develop a hatsu at an old age from nen types which are not his own which could possibly be more powerful than his original nen type. I think the idea makes little sense.

[Jack Van Burace]

Kurapica had an issue because he could only use Judgement Chain when he's got the red eyes, and thus can use all Hatsu types at 100% efficiency. Other than that he couldn't use that technique, due to it using Emission. That's the issue with it.

Conversely, all techs that use opposing Nen types are too hax, just as it should. If one could materialize a dagger into another person's heart, it's instant death. A manipulator that changes aura property could change others' auras properties. And a Reinforcement user that can apply conditions and get special effects would be similar to Gon's last move, but without the set-back.

[kkck]

Kurapica had an issue because he could only use Judgement Chain when he's got the red eyes, and thus can use all Hatsu types at 100% efficiency. Other than that he couldn't use that technique, due to it using Emission. That's the issue with it.

What technique are you talking about? His dowsing chain does not use emission as far as I remember, his judgement chain did not do that either. His chain jail does not use any particular nen type to it either, it simply has the conditions to make it impossible for the ryodan to escape it. He has a chain to heal which uses reinforcement though and it is true it is only 100% efficient when his eyes are red. Kurapica does not have any chains that use emission.

It is true kurapica can only use the chain when his eyes are red but that was never said to be because of emission. I think that is simply a condition to make the chain more powerful.

[Phantron]

The official sourcebook says Netero is a Reinforcement user. There's a reason why Reinforcement is viewed as the premier school of hand to hand because the two most powerful humans characters are both that type (Adult Gon and Netero).

I don't think Netero developed any new techniques. It's more like when he left the mountain, he has mastered how to channel a prayer into energy. Look at the scene where he went to a random dojo. He still did his prayer motion, and then punched. There was no statue, even though the statue appears to be an object anyone can see. I think the point is that during his prime, Netero would have no need to rely on an intermediate step, because his fist + Reinforcement is already the strongest weapon in the world. But as he got older, his fist declined so the statue attack now is actually more powerful compared to his physical strength + Reinforcement, assuming that the statue's power is not dependent on his physical power. At 64% penalty for emission, the statue should still retain 64% of his prime power, versus his self-acknowledged 50% current power.

Take Gon's example, if neither paper nor scissor is not dependent physical strength, then it is clearly that at some point, if his body declined sufficiently enough, that he can do more damage with either paper or scissor compared to rock. In fact, he can use paper while that arm was detached from his body. There's obviously no way he can use rock like that, so it does suggest aura objects aren't dependent on your physical state. If you cut off Gon's arm, the attack power of rock is 0, but he can still throw his severed hand at you and then use paper to blow it up for massive damage. This is an extreme example but it seems reasonable to assume reinforcing a physical object loses power as the object itself oses power too.

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

What technique are you talking about? His dowsing chain does not use emission as far as I remember, his judgement chain did not do that either. His chain jail does not use any particular nen type to it either, it simply has the conditions to make it impossible for the ryodan to escape it. He has a chain to heal which uses reinforcement though and it is true it is only 100% efficient when his eyes are red. Kurapica does not have any chains that use emission.

It is true kurapica can only use the chain when his eyes are red but that was never said to be because of emission. I think that is simply a condition to make the chain more powerful.

Judgment Chain is Emission. It said so in the manga. It's not clear why, but that's what the manga said. That's why he has to be in Scarlet Eyes to use it, because Emission is normally his worst school so he must use the Scarlet Eyes to overcome the penalty.

[kkck]

I didn't even know there was a databook for this. Where did you find it?

Also when, when does kurapica say the judgement chain uses emission? I would find that weird since the chain is materialized to begin with....

---------- Post added at 06:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 PM ----------

Actually I found the bit on kurapica's emission part. I was under the impression that the chain left behind on the target was a real chain as the chain used to create it but it seems that is not the case. My bad lol.

---------- Post added at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

I also looked for information on the guide book but I found nothing about what you said. I found the guide book being sold online however I did not find any definite proof of the netero bit. Some people said the same thing you did claiming it was from the guide book, others said the guide book said he was emission and others said his nen type was stated to be unknown (which would make more sense since the guide book seems to far predate the revelation of netero's abilities).

[Uriel]

Guys...Remember that schools on Nen are not the only thing you do, it's the main thing you do. A controller IS a reinforcement user in a less grade in the same way you can be a patient, liar and nervous person at the same time.

The affinity refers to potential, not talent. Let's say that level 10 is the max anyone can ever reach in HXH (if cap is variable then affinity is pointless, someone could have a cap of level 1000). This means Gon can learn up to level 10 Reinforcement, and Killua can learn up to level 8 Reinforcement. However, this says NOTHING on how quickly they can learn these levels. Indeed, what if Gon just decided he didn't need to train at all because he's special? Killua shows superior talent compared to Gon in all his training. He can master the same techinque in less time than Gon, and since they're only beginners at this point, neither is close to hitting their ceiling. It's entirely possible Killua learned up to say, level 6 Reinforcement already while Gon is still at level 5. The base case in the manga only applies to two people with identical stats.

Now I understand where I differ with you: For me the percentage of the school (Let's say 80% Emission) doesn't affect the cap of the level but the level itself. So If you're Level 10 Emission it will be the same as a natural level 8 Emission type user.
There is no such a thing as cap for Nen.

Reinforcement can be used on anything, but reinforcing anything besides your body isn't very smart usually. Take the guy in Celestial Tower who uses spinning tops as a weapon. Making the tops spin faster is reinforcement. However, if all you're doing is make them spin faster, that's not exactly useful. You've to have some way to turn it into a weapon, and you'd need Manipulate to control.

Not every weapon must be controlled. As was stated by Kurapica's Master you can reinforce a Sword and if you're from the Reinforcement school you'll probably do lot more damage. And you don't need exactly to be a Manipulation kind of user.

I think you can only reinforce physical objects, though, and not aura-based objects. If two identical users of Emission/Reinforce agreed to just shoot aura fireballs at each other, I don't think you can say "I reinforced the aura fireballs". Here you'd expect the Emission user to do more damage, though the Reinforcement user might be better able to shrug them off on the defense. Otherwise that'd make Reinforcement the God school, since you can just say "I reinforced my Manipulate ability!" "I reinforced my Materialize ability!"

But they do. It will take more aura, I believe, and depends solely on the level you have on it.

I think you're seeing Nen as solid and structured when it's not. You become able to use reinforcement even when you don't realize because when you train on something you somehow train the other things as well, being dragged on so to speak. So you somehow in your most powerful technique will reinforce, you need it to heal, to punch, to jump, etc. Intensification is just the basic and advanced techniques but more powerful so ALL the Nen Training leads you to do be able to use it. And I doubt someone doesn't since almost every technique requires so. Not in the same level, of course.

Would you even consider something called rock paper scissors if it took 0.1s from start to finish? You can argue that if you can pray in 0.1s it's still praying, but a game of rock paper scissor in 0.1s just isn't the same game anymore. There's a very distinct "get ready" phase in the game.

You can say "First comes rock" in exactly one second with 0.3 seconds left to do something else. Go try it. He wouldn't be disobeying the game, actually, since it's a quick game. He can charge the punch in those 0.1s and then say the words to make the "condition" of that technique. And we know it's not needed, since He did not said anything against Pitou. The 5s for me doesn't strike me as a condition but rather as the way He can do it.

And the play depends on the ones playing.

If any school would, it would be Transformation, and Killua sucks at it.

WHAT? He makes his aura a damn all-kicking-asses electricity. He doesn't suck at it AT ALL.

Materialization is not just about shape, the part that it makes real objects is key.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter...8/c068/10.html

Show me ONE page in which Emission Nen has such a detailed shape.
Although to be honest I think He uses Emission primary.

[Phantron]

There's like 7 different guidebooks out there and the latest one definitely says Netero is Reinforcement. That's why his ability is somewhat of a mystery because the Kannon seems like it'd have to use some schools he's definitely not very good at (Manipulation/Materialize, depending on how you interpret it). Even if everything can be explained by Emission, it clearly can't be an efficient way to use his AP and surely a master of aura like him has to know that. I think the physical atrophy explanation makes sense (fist atrophies, statue does not), but he's still paying a huge AP premium to rely on the statue, and much higher premium if the statue involves Materialize/Manipulation (can certainly make an argument that at least some degree of those two schools are needed to control the statue).

[kkck]

From what I recall knuckle uses emission too as his critter has a reasonably detailed shape (I guess there could be some transformation involved there though since it can't be conjuration as the thing is indestructible).

I did check for hunter hunter databooks and the most recent one was released in 2004.... At least I checked wikipedia which is usually very accurate for this sort of thing and it mentioned nothing about one that could be considered recent. I googled and I found nothing about that either.

---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=762312

Actually I just found this part and it seems netero is indeed enhacer. That still does not make sense. It would also be strange that zeno would refer to kannon as his strongest technique if his enhancement was at some point stronger. More so, using a hatsu which evidently has no affinity whatsoever to what he does is very strange to to put mildly. I wonder if netero's enlightment resulted in him developing a specialization nen though (kurapica is proof that you can be a normal nen type and specialization). More so, I would find it very strange that netero with regular enhancement was capable of causing the sheer level of destruction he did (he almost flattened a mountain). Anyways, if he is an enhancer then the most logical explanation for a hatsu which seems unrelated to his main category would be a specialization nen. You can become a specialization later in life however even if an enhancer is the least likely to become such a thing we are kind talking about the most skilled nen user in the world and apparently an enlightened one...

[Phantron]

Specialization still suffers a 40% penalty to use Reinforcement unless you're Kurapika, whose special ability in itself neutralizes the penalty, but you wouldn't be able to overcome the 40% level penalty either. The picture shows that if he's level 10 Materialize then he can only get to level 4 Emission.

Nobody in the story has ever seen Netero in his prime. Look at the time he finished his training. That is not 'an old man'. Zeno said Netero has been an old man (showing a picture of Netero with a cane) since he was born, so it is not possible for even Zeno to know what Netero is like during his prime. You can assume in his prime, Netero can do both a regular reinforced fist and the Kannon, but he has no reason to use the latter because at that point his fist is stronger than the Kannon (no statue in his encounter with a random guy in dojo). It's only when he got older and lost his physical abilty he'd have to rely on the Kannon. If this isn't the case, it'd make no sense that the strongest man in the world of HXH got there by using a move that is clearly not his best school.

[kkck]

Specialization does not suffer from those penalties because it is in itself something different. It is not a nen type, it is anything that does not quite fit into the 5 conventional hatsus. The only reason it is locate where it is is because manipulation and materialization have a better chance of acquiring it than the others (which in turn means it is not impossible for others).

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 PM ----------

and here is the link for that
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter...09/c083/4.html

[Phantron]

Specialization does not suffer from those penalties because it is in itself something different. It is not a nen type, it is anything that does not quite fit into the 5 conventional hatsus. The only reason it is locate where it is is because manipulation and materialization have a better chance of acquiring it than the others (which in turn means it is not impossible for others).

Then why does Kurapika need to say his special ability is that he is 100% if it's known that specialiization suffers no penalty? If a Specialization user is just 100% in all, where's the fairness in that? How can the strongest man ever not be a Specialization user? And what happens if you started out as Specialization, like Pitou? He didn't change his type unlike Kurapika. He was born as a Specialization. Is he supposed to be 100% in all? Again, how could you possibly beat someone like that unless they absolutely suck at learning?

Ubogin was wondering what type of user Kurapika was, since he uses 2 schools at seemingly 100% efficiency. Then Kurapika pulled off his contacts and says he's a Specialization. If it's readily obvious that Specializaiton = 100% efficiency all, why is Ubogin still confused? Why is he surprised at the true nature of Kurapika's ability if it's innate to any Specialization user? I mean they got two Specialization user within the Spiders, so it's not like they don't have people to reference against. Yes it says Spiders keep secrets to themselves, but if Specialization universally = 100% all, you'd think Kuroro will be like: "Watch out for Specialization users, they are all awesome like me because they have no penalty."

[kkck]

Then why does Kurapika need to say his special ability is that he is 100% if it's known that specialiization suffers no penalty? If a Specialization user is just 100% in all, where's the fairness in that? How can the strongest man ever not be a Specialization user? And what happens if you started out as Specialization, like Pitou? He didn't change his type unlike Kurapika. He was born as a Specialization. Is he supposed to be 100% in all? Again, how could you possibly beat someone like that unless they absolutely suck at learning?

And who says all specializations use 100% in all categories (I did not at least)? Kurapica's specialization nen is that he can use 100% in all categories but that does not mean EVERY specialization user will be able to use 100% in all categories. I have no idea of how things would work for someone by default a specialization user though. I don't think it would be a big deal as a specialization would have an innate ability anyways though (with the exception of kurapica who can do everything). Even then, there is not acquisition rate for specialization, you simply either have it or not (whether it is innate or acquired later in life).

---------- Post added at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------

And who says all specializations use 100% in all categories (I did not at least)? Kurapica's specialization nen is that he can use 100% in all categories but that does not mean EVERY specialization user will be able to use 100% in all categories. I have no idea of how things would work for someone by default a specialization user though. I don't think it would be a big deal as a specialization would have an innate ability anyways though (with the exception of kurapica who can do everything). Even then, there is not acquisition rate for specialization, you simply either have it or not (whether it is innate or acquired later in life).

Perhaps someone born with specialization will simply have 80% acquisition rate for manipulation and conjuration and so on though.