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So it could have been nenless Ubo again aulmost nenless Kurapika.
Yes but why should we assume that he used an imperfect zetsu rather than simply not activating his ability until he removed his in? Would it make sense that kurapica is able to use his chain ability when in is activated on it which is a more advanced application of zetsu? It is a far more reasonable and simpler explanation that kurapica delayed the activation of his ability rather than assuming he used a partial zetsu on the guy.
I have no idea where this 'partial' or 'delayed' Zetsu come from. Might as well say Rock is a partial Ko. You're either in Zetsu or you're not.
Kurapika had Kuroro completely trapped in the 1s Gon got him in the darkness. Kuroro never even called for help and made no attempt to struggle. He said he needed 0.5s to attack with Chain Jail. There's no reason to assume this isn't the time it takes him to activate his ability to full.
By the way, 0.5s is a very long time in HXH. Look at the aerial combat between Netero and Pitou. Pitou's 0.1s activation time was too slow versus Netero. Kurapika said that without a distraction the Spiders can easily dodge an attack that requires 0.5s to get ready.
But Ubogin clearly talked for far longer than 0.5s, which is why the Chain Jail worked on him.
There's a reason why the Ant arc has a clock on most of the fight. Everything in HXH happens in a ridiculously short time. If you've the time to even talk (no character talks faster than human), you're already taking way too much time. Netero's reflexes is too fast for even a 0.1s activation ability to hit him. It'd be pretty sad if a famed organization featuring guys mostly in their primes can't even react in 1/5 the time compared to Netero.
There is no sourcebook information on why the Kannon is what it is. This is question of popular debate since whatever it is, it sure is not Reinforcement, so it makes you wonder why he picked this as a move. Netero's decline of 50% from his prime is well-documented from the manga. We do not have any more information than that.
I think he means an imperfect zetsu rather than a partial one. References to a zetsu not being completely capable of hiding the user have been made (kaluto when hisoka noticed him for instance).
Well, there is a sourcebook with netero and one of the pages shows hyakushiki kannon. I still lean towards netero becoming a specialization or naturally developing a specialization hatsu due to his insane training, metamorphosis and enlightenment.
Now, it takes time for the Chain Jail to activate (0.5s), but I'm assuming that refers to the amount of time it takes the chain to wrap around its target completely. I'm guessing the Chain does not cause Zetsu on touch, or it'd be ridiuclously overpowered, and he should just swing it in a circle and nobody would have a chance to beat that.
The sourcebook says Netero is Reinforcement. This part isn't up to debate. I guess why he picked a non Reinforcement technique as his main attack is going to be one of those never solved mystery unless Togashi wants to sell another sourcebook to explain it.
I still lean toward the explanation that aura abilities decline slower than your physical ability, and Reinforcement clearly suffers from any physical decline you have.
---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------
I guess you can say if Ubogin was in Zetsu then he can he even see the chains at all? But I think Zetsu has some kind of instantaneous moment where you can still use aura before you lose it. Otherwise, how would Ko even work? If you're in a permanent state of Zetsu, you can't use Ko for sure. But Ko requires using Zetsu. Let's say you're using Ko on your hand, so you gather energy on hand, use Zetsu to increase output. Shouldn't whatever aura stored on your hand go away by definition because you're using Zetsu, thus negating the whole technique? And if you use Zetsu first, shouldn't your output just be 0 total so you would have nothing to focus your energy into?
There must be a nearly instantaneous moment where you can still use aura under Zetsu, or Ko would never work because the moment you use Zetsu, you'd lose all the energy you store up for Ko. I don't think you can use Zetsu on just a part of your body, because that basically has the same effect as Ryuu.
Last edited by Phantron; October 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM.
I know what the sourcebook says. However one way or another the manga has never specified the details behind "becoming" a specialization. We only know that materialization and conjuration have the highest chance however that is not to say much. Lets consider a few things. If you can "become" a specialization, does that mean you effectively stop being your original type? Kurapica is effectively both, materialization and specialization. In that regard netero could be in a similar situation. Or say, if you become a specialization do you lose your original hatsu? If you are not originally an specialization naturally you would develop your techniques before the fact meaning that people who become specializations have their original hatsu (unless something is added to them through the specialization) plus whatever they acquire through it. Now, if the specialization acquired is another ability and the original remains, does that mean that rather than the user in itself being a specialization is not the case but rather that he simply has a specialization technique? Under this scenario netero himself would remain an enhancer while at the same time having a specialization technique.
Reinforcements techniques potentially increase the strength and defense of the user several tens on times. It is extremely unlikely (by which I mean outright impossible) any "emitted, transmutted, manipulated" or " conjured, manipulated" nen netero can develop would ever exceed netero's reinforced offense or defense. The math simply does not work.
Specialization is pretty much an unknown and there's no example of people who permanently changed to specialization. Kurapika's change is temporary and the manga says he still uses his base school (Materialization) to calculate what abilities he can learn.
Reinforcement at prime should easily beat any other school in direct damage, or there really isn't even a point to the school's existence. But if you lose half of your physical ability, that essentially means you lose half of your Reinforcement too since it's scaled on your body.
Let's say you lose primary arm, then you can't use Rock, ever. You might be able to use Kannon still (can at least use Zero), but it wouldn't be a stretch to say the regular Kannon might be disabled too if you don't got an arm. To put an exterme case, if you lose both of your arms, it seems like your attack power would have to go to nearly 0 no matter how good you are at Reinforcement, but you might be able to learn how to shoot fireball from your mouth like DBZ. It won't be super effective but it's still better than 0.
Zeno's got multiple moves where he projects aura in the shape of a dragon and hits enemy with it. At least based on the appearance, that move doesn't seem to be related to his physical strength. It can't be stronger than an equivalent Reinforcement's direct attack during his prime, but it might not decline as fast as a function of physical strength. Remember Netero is an anomaly. He's the only person who is the strongest in his relative grouping (humans) and out of his prime. Even in the case of Zeno, one would assume he should be weaker than Silva, who is the leader of the family.
Not necessarily half but even under that scenario another nen type would not match up to a reinforced attack. A reinforced attack has power based on the strength of the limb used times the speed times the amount of nen in it. An emitted nen would have strength equivalent to the amount of nen in it times the speed at which it moves. We saw kannon did not exceed netero's speed and it certainly cannot have more nen than netero himself. If we consider the penalties that netero would incur from using a nen which is materialized and manipulated (both of which netero has a 60% acquisition rate) or emitted, transmutted and manipulated (80, 80 and 60%) then it becomes even more absurd that netero would in any way surpass his reinforcement with either of those combinations.
Razor says his aura projectiles do comparable damage to his Reinforcement attack (i.e. throwing the ball with his hand). Now in this case he's an Emission user, but even if he is a Reinforcement user, there's no reason to expect his Emission abilities to go way down. If Emission attacks don't depend on, or at least decline slower as a function of physical strength, then we'd expect Razor, as he gets older, would have a bigger difference between Emission and Reinforcement.
Emission is also portrayed as the 'play safe' school, so to speak. See Zeno versus Kuroro fight for a perfect example. If you're not sure what the enemy is up to, just throw a mid range attack and see how they react. I think it make sense that during your prime you can just fight hand-to-hand against everything as a Reinforcement, but as you get older and less physically capable, the range nature of Emission becomes more attractive because you can't count on dodging/blocking everything with just your body as you get old.
True but then again as you said razor is not a reinforcement. His training would always be focused primarily on emission. I don't think emission is portrayed as a play safe school either. Tell that too knuckle who basically has to overpower any enemy he fights through physical combat. Even zeno actually got into some pretty real physical combat with kururo is spite of his own age, he did not even fully relied on his dragon. I would think that a hunter that gets so old that he can't even use his body properly and can't use his reinforcement techniques with enough strength for them to be worth it would most likely be unable to do any form of nen combat. Even emission users require their bodies to move to use their techniques meaning that their physical condition is important to them even if not in the exact same manner as a reinforcement (knuckle needs to punch to use hakoware, razor needs to do the volleyball movement to through his nen ball, zeno needs both hands to make the dragons, franklin needs to aim with his hands directly). None of them would be able to aim or even make their techniques properly without physical conditions, emission is not an answer to aging as you suggest.
Guys, have you ever considered that an aura under Zetsu or In won't take effect? A person using Zetsu is completely vulnerable an unable to use any techniques, so how would the Chain Jail work under those effects?
Imo, it's clear Kurapica had to remove the In state of his chain for its effects to kick in. Otherwise it would be just a regular but invisible chain that Uvo could break without a worry.
'In' still has aura- it hides it, but it's still there.
This is how Hisoka uses 'in' in order to hide his pansy gum, and so on.
In, as described, is probably overpowered because everything you do still has full effect except it's invisible. I guess you got to use more aura to maintain In but nobody sure has ran out of AP from doing In. Sure it is easily countered but in theory you can say even a guy like Netero or Meryem can have a newbie moment and just get totally owned by any ability that can be hidden. This is probably why we stop seeing anyone use In, since it's just assumed against an experienced user they'd always be in a constant state of aura vision.
For that matter it's pretty bizarre you got a guy like Ubogin making a newbie mistake, or that Kuroro needs to remind Machi and Shizuku to remember to use aura vision. You'd think in a world of like HXH the first thing you should learn is assume the enemy always has In, because otherwise you can get owned really fast. It clearly costs next to nothing to maintain the aura vision state, so why don't people just stay in it for the whole time?
Well, indeed you're correct. I misinterpreted In. However, Ubogin was only using 50% of his strength on that punch, and Kurapica used all of his to defend. And still got his arm broken. I think Ubo did use everything he could (at 50%) and wasn't diminished one bit by the chain's effects. Kurapica did sustain a 20% hit without any major injury, it only makes sense he got a broken arm with 50% (2.5x the previous hit).