Survivor tournament (preparations)

[Goral]

So as I understood this:
- we don't use polls, but we count the hits in the threads...
- there's only 1 hit, but there can be a lengthy discussion around that said hit
- winner is the one with least hits...

Yeah, these are most optimal rules IMO. As for the theme of the tournament, I would think that for starters Favourite Character would be the best. Least Favourite Character in a survivor type tournament isn't such a good idea IMO because it's like a double negative. You would be shooting to the characters you like the most and that could be confusing and create ambivalent feelings. I'm also pretty sure that people would restrain themselves when eliminating someone and most fanboys wouldn't write "Teresa is thrown into a pot with a melted iron" if Teresa was their favourite but just write "I eliminate Teresa" or "Teresa". And people will argue why they like or dislike a certain character anyway, that's what justifying your vote means. Often people won't have an easy decision of whom to eliminate, e.g. if it was Teresa vs. Galatea, in my case it wouldn't be a matter of whom I dislike but of whom I like less so I would have to write why I like Teresa and why Galatea but why the latter less (ideally of course, since probably not everyone will justify their decision unless there would be a rule that would say that unless they did that the vote would be invalid).

And even though littleangel is probably right that either Teresa or Clare will win such tournament, the real fun is in how will she make it and how will other matches turn out (usually the most fun isn't in the final or at the start but in the middle of the tournament). Although, to be honest Teresa isn't as loved as she used to be. Many people have forgotten why they've like her so much since she hasn't been around for like 100 chapters (so that would be like 10 years counting from the moment first Claymore chapter was published) - not counting the Extra Scene. I would guess that Clare is the biggest favourite currently since people crave her. She wasn't out of the picture that long that people forgot about her and a poor performance of secondary characters like Miria or Deneve has made them even more lustful for her return. Anyway, I don't see it as a problem since this time people will have to write something themselves and not just click and some random users who won't bother to read the rules will add some random element to it.

As for the list of characters, you can use the list we've used in a Polish version of this tournament on my forum, updated by characters that appeared recently (the initial list was made in February of 2008 by Lord, a retired administrator of Polish Claymore forum) + added some random characters so that there would be 56 characters:

1. Alicia/Beth (they should be together IMO for rather obvious reasons)
2. Galatea
3. Ophelia
4. Rafaela
5. Hilda
6. Miria
7. Flora
8. Jeane
9. Undine
10. Veronica
11. Cynthia
12. Deneve
13. Helen
14. Tabitha
15. Yuma
16. Clare
17. Elena
18. Riful
19. Luciella
20. Teresa
21. Rosemary
22. Priscilla
23. Irene
24. Sophia
25. Noel
26. Audrey
27. Rachel
28. Nina
29. Clarice
30. Gonahl AB 
31. Crimson Agatha
32. Raki
33. Rubel
34. Isley
35. Rigardo
36. Duff
37. Vincent
38. Sid
39. Galk
40. Male AB (first male AB we've seen in Slasher's arc)
41. Miata
42. Chief of bandits with his falcon sword 
43. Dae
44. Dietrich
45. Roxanne
46. Hysteria
47. Cassandra
48. Anastasia
49. Nike
50. Renee/Lune
51. Raftela
52. Shrimp twins
53, Ermita
53. Orsay
54. Rimuto
55. Rado
56. Zaki

There are probably some characters missing and some might be unnecessary so call it an alpha version of the final list. If it were like this we could group these "characters" (to be more precise "positions" or "names" since there are also twins in here) into 7 groups, 8 characters in each. 4 characters of each group would advance further + 4 characters that lost but with the least number of shots (lucky losers). That way in the end we would have 32 characters and we could finally begin the real fun and the final phase. It would also serve as a good warm-up and would allow to eliminate characters that shouldn't be in the tournament. What do you think? Or maybe someone has a better configuration in mind?

Later we've also had a different variation of the survivor but let's do this one first. If someone is skilled enough maybe he could estimate odds of winning? ;P
Also, it would be great if there was a person who would do extensive statistics of the tournament (in Excel/Calc/Origin some other program) presenting them in the graphic and spreadsheet form. So, how many shots each characters has received, what percentage of all Here's an example: http://claymore.ok1.pl/viewtopic.php?p=3302#3302
On Polish forum Racjona was the one who made them but I doubt she would be willing to do it here so a volunteer would be much appreciated.

Anyway, organizing such a big tournament isn't that easy so we should carefully plan this. IMO, the more characters the better since it will be a while until we will have an opportunity like this so we should use it to the fullest. And finding a reason to let one of the characters in Zaki vs. Rado match could be interesting .

[littleangel]

I generally agree with you Goral but there are some aspects I have something to add:

And people will argue why they like or dislike a certain character anyway, that's what justifying your vote means

Well thinking about it, if we just made it like: shoot and why, it won't be that interesting because some fans will come with unrealistic whys but if it were to be: shoot, why and plan a strategy for you character to win, will be something interesting, hard and you will read posts that will blow your mind! This can be the thing to make this tournament a one of a kind.

As for the list of characters

Ok the list is cool but I have to disagree about two things:
1- Helda because we haven't seen her in action at all even as an AB she never showed her true powers so I don't think that she will add much to the game
2- The non-claymore & non-ABs characters, because they simply can't fight and will lose to a 47 warrior (What happened with Rafatela was just luck because she wasn't paying attention and let her guard down just like Teresa), with the only exception Raki who I believe won't make it through the very first round because those who hate him are more than those who like him (a fact).

Also, it would be great if there was a person who would do extensive statistics of the tournament (in Excel/Calc/Origin some other program) presenting them in the graphic and spreadsheet form.

I don't know why you're asking but talking about my country as no one finishes high school without full knowledge of using Excel, Word, Power Point, Publisher, VB, QB, HTML language & knowing about (well it is more than knowing but you can say I skipped this part ) Photoshop. So if it just about charts and things like that I would be more than happy to help.

[Yomaslayer 95]

I would love to see more of hilda, especially because i don't think we have seen her true power yet.
The main reason i think this is because somehow her stats as an AB far and away supasses ophelia as an AB
Now i know not to take the stats from the databooks too seriously, but this always bothered me for some reason...
I know this isn't the thread to discuss this, but i just had to say it.

[Shiek927]

The more the merrier, when it comes to the characters....every character had an importance regardless of how long we saw them, and it's good to explain why we feel the way we do about them; their strength, such as the non-AB non-claymore characters, have nothing to do with it.

[littleangel]

Ok. So for now I think it will nice if someone (Goral?) can summarize what we agree on and have discussed on this subject, so that we can take this game to the next level and see if there is something to add or change before that.

[Goral]

Well, I've said what I wanted to I think, the rest is up to you and moderators. So you would have to say whether you agree with what I've written here or not.

Oh, and I forgot to thank you littleangel for stepping up and offering your services as statistician/data analyst. This tournament will become much more fun that way for those who enjoy mathematics and numbers. Thanks.

[littleangel]

Well, I've said what I wanted to I think, the rest is up to you and moderators. So you would have to say whether you agree with what I've written here or not.

There are probably some characters missing and some might be unnecessary so call it an alpha version of the final list.

I agree with what you wrote but I think what everyone posted deserves a good look like my proposal of the sorting (being not random at first then randomized), haeger (which I personally disagree with) but still proposed something new and lastly the humans' and Hilda's debate of whether they should be in it or not.

[Miyagi]

As for the theme of the tournament, I would think that for starters Favourite Character would be the best.

I think discussions about our favorite characters will inevitably be highly subjective because "favorite", by its very definition, is someone we decide based on our liking for that character, it isn't supposed to be backed up by any objective criterion. For example, I could say "Rubel is my favorite character because I like his hat" and trying to argue against it would be meaningless because this is a matter of taste. What do you (all members) think about themes that require more objective reasoning such as...?

1) Most original character
2) Most complicated character
3) Most prudent character

We can go ahead and use "Most Favorite Character", there's nothing wrong with that but having a different theme may provide an opportunity for more intelligent discussions and an unpredictable winner, hence a more exciting tournament.

[Goral]

You have a point here but the same can be said for your suggestions:

1) Rubel is most original because he wears sunglasses
2) Rubel is most complicated because he wears sunglasses even at night
3) Rubel is most prudent character because he wears sunglasses during the sunny day

If justifying your vote won't be somehow specified (or there won't be an arbiter who will decide which votes are valid and which have the same value as anonymous voting in a poll) there might be votes like the above for practically every category, no matter how subjective it will be. And favourite character gives a lot of room for discussion and justifying. I could give many examples but I'll give the one I wrote: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post2798303

It's obvious that by covering favourite character we won't exactly cover everything but at the same time it's one of the very few "categories" where practically every Claymore can participate on equal ground. If the category would be too specified fights such as Agatha vs. Hilda could be impossible since we know too little about them to call them complicated or prudent or even original (we could judge by appearance only).
And there will be room left for more discussion for the next tournaments anyway so IMO it's better to start with something huge and then use the leftovers than to start with something small (like finding most prudent character) and go from there. The bigger the tournament and the more candidates (and users) participating the better we will see how the survivor will work at Mangahelpers and what to improve in next editions.

And let's be honest, tournaments like these usually turn into most popular character "battles". The best example is on MH itself where the best mangaka award was given to such writer as Oda Eiichiro and what's more he had a humongous lead ahead of such great mangaka as Naoki Urasawa or Osamu Tezuka. In the end the most popular mangaka (and the richest) won, not the best (heck, he's far from Togashi's brilliance who can create original worlds and stories without repeating himself and Togashi is far from Urasawa or Tezuka). The point is that making users to justify their votes could prevent it if properly implemented. Also having a huge, HUGE pool of characters to choose from would prevent from having to choose a lesser evil.

That's why IMO first tournament should be treated as an experiment and a foundation for later, more specified tournaments. There is a danger after all that only few people will decide to justify their votes (or in the case it would be mandatory - to participate) so the broader the category the better. It may as well be the last tournament like this so we should make the best of it. I'm pretty sure though that during this tournament some interesting ideas for next tournaments will be conceived thanks to users who will really take their time for explaining why XYZ is their favourite character.

[benelori]

How about we go with, most interesting character, or most intriguing character? They are broad enough categories to invite fresh and redundant discussions as well, and both subjectivity or objectivity, and perhaps Teresa won't win...and if we will consider this an experiment, then in the end we shouldn't concern ourselves too much with the theme...however, anything is an experiment...in everything we do here, previous versions of different events always served us in organizing future ones, same with this one...

If this suggestion is okay with you, then the next thing on our list is making the bracket...I hardly know the manga as well as you guys do, so I don't know whether Goral's list is complete or not, or should be revised or not...but on that list there are 56 people...which means, in classic elimination rounds, a bracket of 64, with some holes in it, obviously...we could do some group stages, but with that I suggest lowering the number of participants, because groups stages are a bit longer...

I can do the bracket, after the participants are decided, since I have some experience in it...

The next thing after that is selecting or submitting artwork...what I would like is to catalog everything in this thread, so if an image, or something we can use, from places like our own image thread, then please post it here...but this is a last minute thing, and not nearly as important as the ones above

[littleangel]

Ok I think we either add to the list or remove from it until we reach a certain number. So I think if we want to remove those are my candidates because we almost know nothing about them or incapable of surviving a single slash from a Claymore:

5. Hilda
10. Veronica
17. Elena
30. Gonahl AB
37. Vincent
40. Male AB (first male AB we've seen in Slasher's arc)
53, Ermita
53. Orsay
54. Rimuto
55. Rado
56. Zaki