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Thread: Your Own Hatsu!

  1. #451
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I am also not sure on to what extent you could use transmutation to change your conjured water. There is the water test although we have not seen someone actually control what water turns into, it seems a bit random so far.

    As far as water being "simple" to create, I am not sure if that makes sense. Water is well known to have some funky physics to it (the article is still pretty basic in that regard) so I am not sure if conjuring water would be that easy or simple. Water is pretty common to us but that is a decent bit distinct from it being simple. Back when Kurapika made his chain he talked about visualizing it. I would think doing that with water would be a tad more difficult if we consider water is formless, colorless and odorless....
    I concede the bolded part. Killua had no control over the taste of water, well he didn´t have control at all. The water could have easily changed colour and still be Transmuter. I still think I could overcome this by training though.

    Ad water physics; I knew some of those but i was literally baffled at the rest (boiling water into snow!). I imagine that would be somewhat difficult but looking at other conjurers (sentient clown, sentient vacuum cleaner) I still believe that it is an attainable feat. When Kurapika trains to Conjure the chains (from iron or steel I suppose) he basically tricks or beats his subconsciousness into Conjuring it. At the very least I don´t think he studied the physics to Conjure them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    It was mostly difficult because he was an Enhancer, for a Conjurer it would have been much easier, Cheetu could conjure a mini savanna. Killua is not using real lightning, he transmuted his aura so that it will have electric properties, it works exactly like lightning but it is not lightning created by a natural phenomenon, conjured lightning(if it's possible) would be actual lighting. I am not sure if I explained it well.

    It might be possible but it would be inefficient. By transmuting his aura into water, your aura has water properties and you can create more with your aura but with Conjuration it would be impossible to create more water, they train to create their weapons and then they can make them appear wherever they are. So the Conjurer would only be able to conjure a definite quantity of water(and where would it appear, it would be actual water there, you can't hold water ini your hands) once the weapon conjured it's over, it would be the same water for all his life. Kurapika's aura won't make him create more chains, same for Kite, and Shizuku etc.

    Also conjured weapons are not better than normal weapons without conditions.
    Yes, but Hisoka´s comment suggests that conjuring a human would be very difficult even for a skilled Conjurer but this still doesn´t explain how he could not do anything else with his Nen.

    Actually you did. Killua basically recreated things with his aura; he changed the looks of his aura to that of a lightning - shape, colour, and then he gave the effect of lightning to his aura (he knew these effects from the long exposure during his assassins training), but two things that can´t be explained as of yet are the need of recharging and the complicated movements of the lightning. Remember that he is Transmuter - it is still his aura so how can that aura move so fast, why can it crook and move like real lightning, why does that Transmuter aura do small discharges if it is under his control (he complains that his "lightning" can´t go on for long). A conjured lightning would understandably have all these properties but Transmuter must willingly do these changes on his own.

    Why would that be impossible? The one Conjurer mechanic left unexplained is this; what happens to deconjured items? Are they left in some pocket universe (an INSANE FEAT)? Or are they actually destroyed every single time and Conjurer basically reconjures them each time (which makes more sense to me)? Consider the case that the conjured item, let´s consider Kurapika´s chain, is cut in half for example. We know that it is self sustainable item so it should continue to exist in this reality, but what would Kurapika do? In the first case he would have to undergo the training again to conjure it again (since he trained to conjure that specific realization of chain), in the second case he would shrug it off by conjuring the exact same chain again (since he trained to conjure an idea of a chain that can generally be conjured anytime). If this principle is applied to water, in the first case I would indeed be able to conjure a specific amount and a specific realization of water (very useful for scams), but in the second case I would be able to conjure water, even after somebody drinks it and pees it (ewww) as long as I have aura. As far as water overflowing problem, I can conjure the water over some receptacle, like a bowl for example.
    Last edited by Master OZ; July 12, 2014 at 02:45 AM. Reason: I swear typos are my enemies

  2. #452
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    For conjuration makes sense to create a bowl that summons water instead of conjuring the water itself. All the conjurers we know work with solid things, or deal with non-solid trough a solid element (Like Basho). The limit of what you can do with it are quite blurry since you're allowed to materialize your own body into something, like Tsubone.
    About the amount...Leol stole an ability that let him conjure TONS of water. Like damn LOT. Even if He didn't control the water, it was a damn good hatsu.

    BTW, I don't think that you "destroy" what you conjure when you don't summon things. Knov's Hide and Seek allowed him to create a completely different dimension that exist even when He isn't thinking on it. It's safer to assume that all Nen elements when un-summons goes to a Nen dimension until the moment they're summoned again.

    Transmutation users seems to work directly with their aura and not with elements. Or change the body itself, like Zazan and Biscuit. The most ambiguous cases are Feitan and Machi, but they could be using Conjuration skills on their techniques as well: After all Hatsu doesn't limit with the school.

    Since water is something you experience all the time, it shouldn't be hard to materialize, so little conjuration ability is actually used. I think Emission is the best for water, since it's closest to Manipulation and could work better to overcome the amount issue.
    The Sky is pouring
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    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
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  4. #453
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    For conjuration makes sense to create a bowl that summons water instead of conjuring the water itself. All the conjurers we know work with solid things, or deal with non-solid trough a solid element (Like Basho). The limit of what you can do with it are quite blurry since you're allowed to materialize your own body into something, like Tsubone.
    About the amount...Leol stole an ability that let him conjure TONS of water. Like damn LOT. Even if He didn't control the water, it was a damn good hatsu.

    BTW, I don't think that you "destroy" what you conjure when you don't summon things. Knov's Hide and Seek allowed him to create a completely different dimension that exist even when He isn't thinking on it. It's safer to assume that all Nen elements when un-summons goes to a Nen dimension until the moment they're summoned again.

    Transmutation users seems to work directly with their aura and not with elements. Or change the body itself, like Zazan and Biscuit. The most ambiguous cases are Feitan and Machi, but they could be using Conjuration skills on their techniques as well: After all Hatsu doesn't limit with the school.

    Since water is something you experience all the time, it shouldn't be hard to materialize, so little conjuration ability is actually used. I think Emission is the best for water, since it's closest to Manipulation and could work better to overcome the amount issue.
    That is actually an incredible idea, thank you.

    i was actually more inclined to believe this was the case, because then Conjurers if they were destroying and reconjuring their items every time, they would have to spend their aura again and again, which would be fatal for combat. Although my ability would have to work in such way, because creating only specific instance of water would be very limiting.

    Well, that didn´t occur to me. You see, when these are listed, they are usually sorted by one school and that threw me off. It would have been much more useful to say that e.g. Machi´s threads are Transmutation mixed with Conjuration and not just by the "dominant" school.

    The amount would be solely influenced by Conjuring, or Enhancing (Conjure a small amount of desired water with desired effects and Enhancing the amount like in the water divination test with Enhancer Ren), since Emission influences the control of aura after detachment from the original body. Manipulation should be able to control conjured item, in our case the water.
    Last edited by Master OZ; July 13, 2014 at 02:46 AM.

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  6. #454
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Demonspeed's Avatar
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    For conjuration makes sense to create a bowl that summons water instead of conjuring the water itself. All the conjurers we know work with solid things, or deal with non-solid trough a solid element (Like Basho). The limit of what you can do with it are quite blurry since you're allowed to materialize your own body into something, like Tsubone.
    About the amount...Leol stole an ability that let him conjure TONS of water. Like damn LOT. Even if He didn't control the water, it was a damn good hatsu.

    BTW, I don't think that you "destroy" what you conjure when you don't summon things. Knov's Hide and Seek allowed him to create a completely different dimension that exist even when He isn't thinking on it. It's safer to assume that all Nen elements when un-summons goes to a Nen dimension until the moment they're summoned again.
    Right but it is usable only on rainy days.Elemental powers with Conjuration is reall not very useful, Transmutation is far better for this.
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  8. #455
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Well, we're three users and we think that three completely different schools are suited better for the same technique xD
    I stand by the sort of vase for the water then if it's conjuring and Transmutation if you want to make a waterbend technique. I think the limitations of both techniques are obvious and efficient. Transmutation would work better since it's closer to both Enhance and Conjure and can combine both.

    And you could use the vase idea even as a Transmuter , because it's not something that complicate to imagine. Hmmm, now that I think about it, Transmutation IS the best course.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

  9. #456
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    I am not sure if transformation is the ideal one here. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the limit of the water you could transmute at a time the size of your ren? More so, if the water separates from you then you would need emission. In that regard transmutation would be rather inconvenient for the water, you need conjuration for efficiency's sake.

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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    You can't create water with Conjuration, it's more of a Transmutation technique, like Killua's ability. Conjuration creates an object.

    It's a 100% Transmutation technique, it would be impossible to change the taste of the water after this excepted like Killua did to know his affinity. I can only imagine you being able to make sugar water.
    What do you mean you cant make water? Of course you can, thats what leol did with that one guys ability. There is no rule that says you cant conjure liquids nor would it evn be that hard to make water. You drink it every day of your life hell you even made up of mostly water. The guys ability is ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master OZ View Post
    Yes that was the idea. That´s why I felt necessary to mention the level of attainment of other schools. Conjuration to create water. Transmutation to change the properties of water. Enhancer to increase the effects or amount of water. Emission to remote control the water at distance.

    Looking back, the drawback would be incredibly long time before the completion of said ability.
    Well yeah it would for the enhancment, emission, and manipulation stuff but conjuring a bowl of water and changing it with transmutation would be incredibly easy for any conjurer worth his salt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    Right but it is usable only on rainy days.Elemental powers with Conjuration is reall not very useful, Transmutation is far better for this.
    Conjuring elements may not be useful for combat but his abilitynisnt really a combat ability, its mainly for him being a "water dealer" that does different things with water thru transmutation to use or give to ppl. All of the other combat applications for it would be much mire difficult however since he is only a conjurer but its still not a bad ability.
    Last edited by tupadre97; July 13, 2014 at 09:47 PM.

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  13. #458
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Hi guys, I'm new here. Been reading the forum for a while, and now finally decided to make an account.
    Let's get started.

    Name: Root of Evilness (极恶根源)
    Type: Conjuration/Specialist
    Description: When activated, an ability is conjured to best fulfill a task based on my knowledge, condition (physical and psychological), environment, preference and the level of frustration.
    Condition: I can only activate the ability when I feel a situation, person, or object is frustrating and problematic.

    I have been thinking about nen abilities for almost 2 years, and I kept having new ideas every time after I made an ability, so this is the generalized one to best fulfill my personality. I like to gain knowledge over the things that I find interesting (that can be anything, from arts to science). One of the reason I love to do that is because those knowledge might end up helping me when I am facing an unexpected situation or problem. This has proven to be true, and I enjoy it a lot. Also, since I always like create a nen ability when I'm free, so I think it is logical to have an ability like this, since my preference is included. Also, I like to have things that is kinda like "jack of all trade, master of none", similar to the red mage in FF.

    As a side note, the name of the ability, Root of Evilness, is the term I use for frustrating, problematic, annoying things.

    I think it is easier to explain the ability if someone asks question

  14. #459
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    My thoughts on this whole water issue
    I dont have a problem with the conjuration of water, it is already proven possible (leol), it just needs a condition
    an infinite amount of water that lasts an infinite amount of time is too powerful
    Water is only 'simpler' than chains and vacuums because a clear complete mental image already exists in the user's mind, this doesn't mean you can conjure more
    you can conjure more simply because the same volume of water and iron or whatever has less mass of water (less total conjured subatomic particles)

    I am under the impression that materialized nen objects cannot exist 'forver,' like Kortopi's 24 hr limit, or if a conjurer were to get knocked out/die, the nen object should disappear (after any death nen grudges are enacted). I dont know if conjured stuff also dematerializes when the user goes to sleep, or stops actively willing the nen. So drinking water that will dematerialize seems risky to me

    Say you sell your water like you wanted to and everyone is drinking that, and for some reason your ability gets canceled (u die/get knocked out/your nen gets stolen/your nen gets blocked/you lose your nen/etc.), all of this h2o dematerializes and everyone who has bought from you instantly dehydrates and dies or is in a lot of danger
    From a business standpoint this is probably bad and very risky (lawsuits/loss of consumer/loss of company credibility)
    Based on the condition for your ability (which is much needed) whether it be a certain volume/day, certain amount of time of existence, or another misc. condition, it will limit and probably end your business plan

    A while ago, I was thinking about something like this, say a conjured water molecule was in the body, and some type of reaction occurs, can the molecule even undergo a reaction? say it can and a hydrolysis rxn occurs and the conjured h's and o are split up and in molecules with other real atoms, say the conjurer dematerializes the ability and these atoms disappear, then what happens, the molecules lacking whatever atom disappeared now is in a highly reactive state or something and bad things happen, idk, im thinking about this too much lol, its probably that conjured molecules cannot react as normal real molecules, which would mean that drinking your water would accomplish nothing, you could make it a commodity with the taste transmution i guess, but why not just buy the normal drink lol

    ---------- Post added at 07:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

    Also
    Hatsu: Gender Bender
    Nen: Manipulation
    Description: You have control of someone's gender
    The condition is met you have to strike with an nen imbued punch/kick/hit/poke/etc. to the head, throat, both breats, stomach, and crotch
    When condition is met, user is able to change the victim's gender once (does not have to be male/female, can be half n half, or whatever)

    This could be used in a fight with a girl to give them balls and then kick them there, or in a fight with a guy, use the ability to mess with their psyche

  15. #460
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter x Hunter Chapter 347 Discussion/ 348 Predictions

    About leol's water, was he really conjuring it? Because just as he died his ability disappeared but not the water... If his ability disappeared then conjured water should have disappeared too. I doubt the water was the sort of nen that sticks, it didn't seem to do that at all. Perhaps the water simply being controlled by the conjured items? It had some limitations that could have aided with that IIRC.

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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    It seems like that would work better if you were emission though. The main point of the ability would be the emitted nen so your hatsu would not take advantage of the fact that you are primarily a manipulator. To boot if you are talking about shapes your hatsu would require transmutation. It would be pretty basic but if you are a manipulator then you will be very far away from transmutation. Your hatsu works although it would befit an emitter more than a manipulator. Maybe you could use actual iron sand?
    If I were a Transmuter, I could only transmute my aura to a magnetic force, and conjure Iron Sand. Maybe I could use real Iron Sand if I could lug around an entire gourd of it...
    The thing is, with my ability, Emission is a very low part of it, only to create the particles. The manipulation allows me to do whatever I want with it. But yeah, I guess that an Emitter might pull it off better than I.

  17. #462
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Quote Originally Posted by DinoTaur View Post
    If I were a Transmuter, I could only transmute my aura to a magnetic force, and conjure Iron Sand. Maybe I could use real Iron Sand if I could lug around an entire gourd of it...
    The thing is, with my ability, Emission is a very low part of it, only to create the particles. The manipulation allows me to do whatever I want with it. But yeah, I guess that an Emitter might pull it off better than I.
    Well, perhaps manipulation or emission would work well although with slightly different results.

    With emission as your primary element you would get to maintain the force of the nen thingies at all times. You might even get bonus damage or strength from the hatsu benefits users sometimes get. Like when the manga said franklin got stronger nen bullets from cutting the tip of his fingers or what gon does with rock.

    With manipulation as your primary element you would perhaps get more precise control over the pellets. It would be easier to construct things out of the pellets. Not sure how a hatsu bonus would work here although odds are you would be at a disadvantage in terms of offensive capacity against other fighters. In this case your ability might be better for things not related to fighting that require a more finesse. To put it in perspective, imagine being up against an emitter. If you attack being a manipulator you would be at 80% while the emitter will probably be at over 100% thanks to the hatsu thing. Even if you have your hatsu bonus going on you would still be at a disadvantage because it would be quite optimistic for you to get at 100% while the enemy is at any given point at over 100% at least.

    So depending on what you want, I would argue you need emission ideally for fighting and manipulation for anything else.

    Conjuring iron sand and controlling it via transmuted magnetism sounds cool although I am not sure of how useful it would be. If you really plan to use it at a range you would need emission which is weak for transmuters. So you would be limited to using it at close range which can perhaps be made to be very effective. Perhaps something like palms' hair technique which made a good armor (enough that she didn't have to worry about defense). You could use the transmuted nen to control the sand and make it into an armor which you can manipulate at will. You are close enough to enhancement too which should be very effective too. Reinforce the sand and you have a killer defense and offense added to the natural properties of the iron. In one go you can turn your sand armor into a reinforced blade or fist.... You can presumably do something similar with the original alternative though and it would be pretty effective too.

  18. #463
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    Re: Hunter x Hunter Chapter 347 Discussion/ 348 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    About leol's water, was he really conjuring it? Because just as he died his ability disappeared but not the water... If his ability disappeared then conjured water should have disappeared too. I doubt the water was the sort of nen that sticks, it didn't seem to do that at all. Perhaps the water simply being controlled by the conjured items? It had some limitations that could have aided with that IIRC.
    Leol did conjure the water but only by using the surfboard. He didn't need any focus to keep the water conjured but rather the surfboard because it had other abilities and required more mental energy.

  19. #464
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hunter x Hunter Chapter 347 Discussion/ 348 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by tupadre97 View Post
    Leol did conjure the water but only by using the surfboard. He didn't need any focus to keep the water conjured but rather the surfboard because it had other abilities and required more mental energy.
    Dunno, for me the situation is weird. Overall, did we see any clear evidence that the water was conjured? The manga chapter is not particularly clear about that and the anime is somewhat ambiguous on whether the water came out of nowhere or from somewhere. The ability itself has the limitation that it can only be used in rainy days.

  20. #465
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    Re: Your Own Hatsu!

    Quote Originally Posted by heehoo10 View Post
    My thoughts on this whole water issue
    I dont have a problem with the conjuration of water, it is already proven possible (leol), it just needs a condition
    an infinite amount of water that lasts an infinite amount of time is too powerful
    Water is only 'simpler' than chains and vacuums because a clear complete mental image already exists in the user's mind, this doesn't mean you can conjure more
    you can conjure more simply because the same volume of water and iron or whatever has less mass of water (less total conjured subatomic particles)

    I am under the impression that materialized nen objects cannot exist 'forver,' like Kortopi's 24 hr limit, or if a conjurer were to get knocked out/die, the nen object should disappear (after any death nen grudges are enacted). I dont know if conjured stuff also dematerializes when the user goes to sleep, or stops actively willing the nen. So drinking water that will dematerialize seems risky to me

    Say you sell your water like you wanted to and everyone is drinking that, and for some reason your ability gets canceled (u die/get knocked out/your nen gets stolen/your nen gets blocked/you lose your nen/etc.), all of this h2o dematerializes and everyone who has bought from you instantly dehydrates and dies or is in a lot of danger
    From a business standpoint this is probably bad and very risky (lawsuits/loss of consumer/loss of company credibility)
    Based on the condition for your ability (which is much needed) whether it be a certain volume/day, certain amount of time of existence, or another misc. condition, it will limit and probably end your business plan

    A while ago, I was thinking about something like this, say a conjured water molecule was in the body, and some type of reaction occurs, can the molecule even undergo a reaction? say it can and a hydrolysis rxn occurs and the conjured h's and o are split up and in molecules with other real atoms, say the conjurer dematerializes the ability and these atoms disappear, then what happens, the molecules lacking whatever atom disappeared now is in a highly reactive state or something and bad things happen, idk, im thinking about this too much lol, its probably that conjured molecules cannot react as normal real molecules, which would mean that drinking your water would accomplish nothing, you could make it a commodity with the taste transmution i guess, but why not just buy the normal drink lol
    It wasn´t stated in detail but I get where you get that from. We have no idea how long conjured things can last, but they are brought into existence and are self sustainable, so they should be able to exist until they are broken or in our case used up.

    Kortopi has that 24 hours limit because he can basically create anything he can get his hands on, although it remains to be seen if he/she (I can´t remember now) can copy conjured items.

    That would be the case if my ability was a Transmuter, but as a Conjurer an already conjured water exists even after my death.

    Condition is not needed at all. You see condition is for people who need some kind of boost, let it be in battle, to make up for lack of time (they are in a hurry like Kurapika), to make up for a lack of a talent (a very tangible thing in this manga), but basically the more training and skill you have in Nen, the less conditions you need to set. I am working on the assumption that I need to train a lot for my ability precisely to circumvent these limitations and conditions.

    Sadly we will never get an answer to that. Ever. Togashi is obviously done with the normal Nen system, he already moved on the ability Nen system, it is going to be all Hatsus from now on

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