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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
When I said that bit about the three First Generation Gravity Children on the Ring Road, since I had also mentioned that dark-skinned girl Kanon fought plenty of times already, I was assuming you'd know to think I was thinking of her as one of them.
Spitfire and Aeon called them the Apollon Road and the Avalon Road, but notice that they are still Spitfire's own techniques and Tricks (not to mention that Aeon is also technically a Flame Road Rider; it's just that his "run" focuses more on the "Time" aspect of the Flame Road). That All-Purpose Regalia Prototype wouldn't have the Trick "St. Elmo's Crossfire" as one of Spitfire's own exclusive Tricks otherwise (Here, look at these pages: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v29/c273/12.html, http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v29/c273/13.html, and http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v29/c273/14.html; see that? It's Sptfire's "run" and Spitfire's Trick; both lines that make up the "cross" are also burning, no? "Flames".). And I'm not making it up when I say that Spitfire told Kazu that "Time" is classified as part of the Flame Road. The scene with Spitfire saying that to him is shown in a flashback during Ikk's and Kazu's fight in that religious seminar, since that's when we first saw Kazu use the "Time" Tricks.
Also, you said that the mold of the 24 Regalia had been broken. It hasn't, yet. There are still 24 original Regalia. We just have some extra Roads added for some of the Regalia.
And about the Hurricane Road, it's going to be the 9th main Road, and its Regalia will be the 9th main Regalia. But since it's an additional Regalia, you could say it'll be the 25th Regalia. It's not like the Hurricane Road is one of the Roads of the Wind King. It's the Storm King's Road.
Before now, the Hurricane Road was a fusion between the Wing Road and the Over Road, but Over Road Tricks can't be used without either the Rumble Regalia or at least something with some kind of a ramjet engine in it (look at Shallot's ATs). That's the main reason why all of Ikki's Wind Tricks are Wing Road Tricks, and only the "Null Wind" Trick is an actual Hurricane Road Trick (in that, he did something to create a make-shift "ramjet engine," since he didn't have one on him (Agito's and Kazu's Trick, and Buccha's "reflective wave," along with Ikki's own mega wind for the Wing Road, to combine that with the Over Road's ramjet engine windmill principle and created a giant storm to swallow up all of the wind)). Now, though, it's getting additional Roads combined into it. Part of me is still hoping that after the battle against Sora, Ikki gives back all of the cores that are being fused into his Regalia, keeping only the Bagram replica Kururu made, along with the Rumble Regalia core, and maybe the Thunder Regalia core. The cores he keeps will of course have to be replicated. If he gives the Flame core and Fang core back to Kazu and Agito, respectively, I'll be happy, but if he keeps those, then I'll only be satisfied if it's revealed or implied that those cores will be replicated to be given to Kazu and Agito. Those two are still "Kings," they need the cores. The Rumble core and the Thunder core have to replicated as well. They need to choose a new Rumble King, and if Nue still refuses to use the core to his Regalia, even once it's been replicated (this time will be the second time, if it's replicated), then they could either give the new core to Blackburn or choose another Thunder King. Blackburn is still actively riding on the Rising Road, he hasn't retired, so he could still go back to being Thunder King.
Edit: Now, going back to the Wing Road being the most important one of the eight main Roads and all; first, look at these pages: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v12/c102/13.html, http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v12/c102/14.html, http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v12/c102/15.html, and http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v12/c102/16.html. There you go. The Wing Road is the one closest to the sky, and is also the most important Road, mainly because of the way ATs themselves mainly function and also because every Road and Regalia relies on the air/wind for all of its functions and Tricks. We need confirmation from Minami, but right now, everything points to the Wing Road being one of the eight main Roads as the most important one, being that it's closest Road to the sky, and also because it directly uses the air to produce and manipulate the wind. We've seen Ikki using the wind to to give himself a speed boost, with just his bare hands and without ATs, while they were in Tower and talking about the truth of the Sky Regalia, Sora, and the old Sleeping Forest team's past (in the gravity chamber, while it was in a 0G environment). Wing Road Riders may need ATs for some things, but they can still generally do a whole lot of stuff with the wind with just their bare hands. Sora said that the Wing Road is different from the others, right?
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 14, 2011 at 01:01 PM.
none of the grav kids with genesis (not including sora, nike, simca and formerly spitfire) were part of the 1st generation. you can't take age into account either because you have a span from grav kids as old or older than mikan - who is definitely a 2nd gen - and ones as young as ume and nue's team of kids. besides, if minami says that the other 1st gen were 'eaten' by sora, i don't think that they'd still be around so the grav kids in genesis like merlin (dark skinned ring road rider) isn't part of the 1st gen. that we know of, there are only 2 confirmed grav kids in 1st gen that are ring road which are simca and rune.
avalon was a mistranslation on another scanlation team's part. they didn't see the better scans and realized that it was actually supposed to be 'apollon' (to make 'po' in japanese, you add a little circle next to 'ho' but to make 'bo' you add 2 tick marks). you use the example of the flame road and time tricks but if you go by that reasoning, there's no point in saying that ikki's pile tornado or that huge hurricane causing kick or wind bubble explosion are part of the hurricane road and he really should just go back to being called the wind king of the wing road. that's what i'm pointing out with the apollon road - apollon and flame are part of the same type of roads which for the most part we are identifying as the flame road branch (main branch) so of course they can share tricks. its exactly the same with the hurricane and wing roads and the sharing of tricks between them (there's also that one wind/brute strength repelling ability that ikki used to keep the wires off of him but in earlier chapters we see mikan do the same thing so there's a cross of tricks between hurrican and gale). i'm sure that if agito tried, he could pull of a piercing laser-esque fang like how gabishi does and vice versa.Quote:
i never said that we've broken the mold of 24 regalia... i said we've broken the mold of 24 roads (8 main and 16 sub). i wasn't even including the regalias in that statement.Quote:
you are contradicting your stance on what defines a different road... you claim that time tricks are part of the flame road and not its own road but then you say that despite that all the tricks that ikki has been using are pretty much tricks from the wing road, he still has his own road. you can't say it works one way for one example and a different way in another example. tricks can be shared between same types of roads but the roads can still be different - that's my stance.Quote:
if you want to go off of what the old little man said about ikki's roadQuote:
in other words, the wing road is too 'constricting' for ikki's style so they need something more 'expansive' but in no way was a completely new and original road. the hurricane road is still technically branched from the wing road and the only reason they were regarding it as the 9th road was because a 9th regalia was eventually going to be made (since there was only 8 in the present time). they didn't know at the time that they'd end up combining quite a few cores (since kururu was originally aiming to make one entirely from scratch).
another mistranslation... the original japanese script actually translated to "every king's infinite atmosphere uses the sky" 王の持つ最終奥技は全て「空」を使う. I would also like to point out another o!g consistency fail, in how they made it sound like there were only 8 back then but now he's having key characters that supposedly know better (minami) saying otherwise. either everyone else really didn't know and the grav kids weren't telling, or o!g fails. i like to think o!g fails because it seems to be a common thing with him. the last page (16) you refer to is also saying 'sky' instead of wind so the whole wing isn't as key of a road as you believe it to be. however, yoshitsune does at least regard the wing/wind road to be the pivotal one among the 8. since yoshi is a smart guy and can deduce this without being told, we are certain that the wing road is definitely a key road but in yoshi's logic, it is simply because the wing road is the 'simplest yet expansive' form of manipulating the sky/atmosphere. as for what sora said the wing road being different from the other roads... i think he means that out of all the roads, its the one that doesn't need the regalia or a-ts at all to use... now we've seen rika pull some sonia road tricks without a-ts but those weren't true thorn tricks, just the movements that are used for a sonia road rider and all stuff internal, and the ring road is constantly active for tuners but its an input only in that constant active mode. the wind tricks have the most expansive array of tricks that can be done without aid of anything else like a-ts. in that regard, yes, the wing road or at least wind tricks are definitely on their own playing field in regards to when and how it can be used.Quote:
random tid bit:
little did we know just how accurate ine was in describing the ring road being the one to 'give birth' to the ultimate regalia (the equipment ume used to practically connect all the kings so they could use the sky regalia; i guess the secondary function of the pledge regalia was to do just that)
last thing, since kiric has also confirmed it, none of current sf have real regalias. i always want to wait until 2 or 3 'reliable' characters state the same thing before believing it to be true. i do wonder what nina, gabi, om and onibasu have done with their regalia... did they toss them? or are they simply not using them in keeping with their standards?
Last edited by suarhnir; October 15, 2011 at 04:12 AM.
Remember what Nue said about Ikki's Wind Tricks? That they're all bad copies, right? Nue said that the only reason Ikki was able to become a "King" in such a short time was because Sora taught him Tricks. The Pile Tornado is Sora's own Trick, he taught it to Ikki. The hurricane-causing you mentioned, if it's the "Null Wind" Trick, is Wing Road + Over Road, it's not just the Wing Road. And the Trick he did to get out of Nue's wires i their Dash match; according to Falco, that's one of the most fundamental basics in AT, the Trick Ikki did there. It's not really a Wind Trick, though he did seem to make it into a Wind Trick when he put his hands behind and use wind to propel himself forward (unless I'm mistaken, that's what he did). But the rest of what he did to get out of the wires, as Falco said, is one of the most fundamental basics in AT--all he did go full speed, charging at the wires, then pull the brakes before using the rebounding energy to jump off and escape. But, the situation in which he did it is what made it a big deal and even got Nue to give Ikki the Thunder Regalia core. That situation was one in which Ikki could've lost his life if he'd even one wrong move; the only other two people who can the same thing in that kind of situation, as far as Falco knows, are Kilik and Sora.
Also, Ine seems to know that "Pyon" girl, and when Sora mentioned the "successful" and "failed" First Gen. Gravity Children, she was, IIRC, the very first Gravity Child to be shown. Ogure showed her just as Sora was talking, actually. This tells me that she actually is a First Gen. Gravity Child. But yeah, if Merlin isn't part of the First Generation, then right now we only know of two Ring Road Riders from the First Generation. But maybe the third one died, then? If there where 24 Regalia but 28 Gravity Children, then besides Nike, there must have been one other "extra" person.
And, okay, I stand corrected about the "sky" versus "air/wind" bit, but do notice how all of Roads seem to rely on the air? Isn't "Infinity Atmosphere" also the way a Road uses the air?
And I'm aware that Wing Road Riders can use the wind without ATs--I already said that.
And as for the Flame Road vs. Apollon Road, and Hurricane Road vs. Wing Road. On the former, I was thinking that since the Apollon Road and "St. Elmo's Crossfire" are listed an that All-Purpose Regalia Prototype's database as Spitfire's own Road and Trick, that it's a Flame Road Trick. Spitfire said that "Time" is classified as part of the Flame Road because it makes the opponent feel a burning sensation. Spitfire used fire more than the "Time" Tricks, and Aeon did the opposite of that, by relying mainly on "Time". But they're both Flame Road Riders, and Aeon did use the Flame Regalia for a while before giving it to Kazu. If the Apollon Road is a branch Road, it's a branch Road of the Flame King, since it can be used with the Flame Regalia. If it were of a branch Regalia, then it wouldn't be that good when being used with the Flame Regalia. That's what I was getting at. About the Hurricane Road: it was originally an altered Wing Road, I get that. But now look at it. It's now a combination of the Wing Road, Rising Road, Bloody Road, Flame Road, Gaia Road, and Over Road; two Roads shy of the Sky Road, if such a Road does exist. But Ikki is a Wind-user, so the Storm Regalia has to be made such that it powers up his wind. They do refer him a lot as a "wind," and also as "the wind that has become a storm".
As for Ine mentioning the "ultimate" Regalia, I took that as her referring to the Wind Regalia. The Sky Regalia isn't really a Regalia in the sense that other eight main ones and the sixteen branch ones are. It's the software/network that controls all ATs and AT technology in the world, and the Skylink is one part of it. Inorganic Net and the Chronos Image are part of Skylink. And the Flame Regalia allows the wearer to access Skylink and use the Tricks of every Rider in the world, as long as he/she has permission (maybe, with the master codes at the bottom of the "Tower," in that briefcase, one could that function of Skylink without having to ask permission for using the Tricks, and, ultimately, it's most likely also for allowing the Sky King to take full control of the whole AT world). I don't fully understand the bit how gathering all of the Regalia to activate the Sky Regalia works, yet, though.
About the Roads, even if Yoshitsune knew about there having originally been 24 Regalia, since the main eight are the ones that really matter, he probably still wouldn't have mentioned the other sixteen since they're just "child" Roads of the main eight, based on the same concept as the "father" Road, each, but still a bit different. Also, chances are, only Dr. Minami and the Gravity Children knew up until now about the 24 Regalia.
Anyways, yeah, I was already thinking that all of the current Sleeping Forest's Regalia were Regalia without cores. What Kilik said in the recent chapter made my belief more solid. But yeah, I do wonder what Om, Gabishi, Nina, and Onibasu did with their Regalia.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 15, 2011 at 08:52 AM.
wrong one i meant this one:
the combination of brute strength and a little bit of full body wind push. whether this is actually a trick or something ikki and mikan just do as an instinctive 'break free' action, i'm not sure but they both do it.
that would be a good point on pyon, but it could have also been that ine knew her because she was helping genesis in the regular capacity of the ttt neutrality. though it might have been a character design recycling on o!g's part, the first time pyon makes an appearance is at the end of the behemoth match when kaito's men come in but then nue disarms all of them then sora comes up with a girl that looks like pyon, some huge masked bulky guy and rika in her wrestling outfit. if pyon was genuinely there, then it might be that pyon was around enough to be seen and introduced to ine. also, i think ine was the masked bondage looking chick with straight hair (there's a scene where ine has her hair down all the way when calling kururu about nue's defeat - she may have been the one to bring in nue but was dressed as that gas mask bondage outfit and was changing back to her normal attire and hairstyle (basically, she's been more involved with genesis than ttt's neutrality should have allowed because later on we see her releasing the captured om and gabi via chauffer). anyways, it is a common plot device of authors to show a connection of someone else entirely when talking about a character or narrator talks about a certain subject - i'm shuffling pyon into the 'probably 1st gen' but merlin and the others are definitely 2nd gen, and this is supported by their constant fear/thinking of being disposed of.Quote:
i was merely pointing out that the reason why sora said the wing road was different was because of it being the only road that can be used without a-ts. that's really the only thing uniquely different that i can think of.Quote:
when you have a branch road that is of the same type as the main, then you can use the same type of regalia. since time is a branch of flame, then of course you can use the flame regalia to use time tricks. i imagine that you could use storm tricks with bagram as well.Quote:
i guess i need another example to explain this: musical instruments... different families of instruments will be the types of roads. we shall have woodwind instruments as the wind type road - the wing road shall be clarinets, the gale road shall be oboes and the hurricane will be the flute. they are still all part of the same family/road type, but they have varying unique abilities(sounds) and since the hurricane is the most different of that road type they have the most different instrument type from the other 2 (clarinet is a single reed instrument, oboe is double reed, flutes don't use reeds). they are all based on the same requirement though, which is air flow into a sharp edge or reed (hence the name wood wind) and the main body to manipulate notes is very similar across the 3 instruments (which we can liken to the tricks) - it is possible to mix them up; use the body of the flute with a clarinet mouthpiece and you will be able to still play music (it'd pretty much be a saxophone at that point).
the flame type will be brass family of instruments. you have spitfire as the trumpet and aeon as the trombone. trumpet uses the more common valve mechanism (actual flame tricks like afterburner and just making flames in general) to change notes while the trombone has the unique sliding mechanism(lack of flames but uses the same/greater speed and some heat to do time tricks). mouthpieces in the brass family are much easier to interchange because it's the same across the board with the exception of size.
i can go on with the different instrument families and roads but the thing to take away from these examples is that the regalia core is like that of the mouthpiece to the instruments within these two families and it can be used with different bodies of instruments within the family which can be like the road types. notice however we have the brass/flame which has the same core but different bodies/roads, where the woodwinds with different mouthpieces/cores being used in very similar bodies/roads. the woodwinds/wind type road are pretty much churning out the same tricks with only small nuances while the brass/flame type roads are churning out different tricks because of the bodies/roads.
if o!g was actually trying to be super foreshadowing then he could have meant ine's comment to actually refer to the sky regalia, but we may never know unless enough of us write to o!g and ask him to honestly tell us if he meant the wind regalia or the sky regalia with ine's line.Quote:
if yoshi did know, i don't think it was because the other 16 were 'child' roads but that in general there are 8 types of roads that he would bother to mention (each with a main and branch roads). and there's no point in mentioning the other regalia because they are no where to be found (no rumors or people using/claiming they have a 'regalia'). again, we may have o!g probably failing on consistency with the somewhat contradicting info from earlier chapters and recent chapters - but i guess that's common when you have been doing a series for so long (and a weekly one at that, it would be hard to fit in time to look over old chapters to make sure he had things in order - and he also had tt until recently as well).Quote:
Last edited by suarhnir; October 15, 2011 at 02:07 PM.
Um . . . about the 16 branch Roads, since they're branching off of the main eight, wouldn't it make sense for them to have the same concept but be a bit different in how the concept is applied? They aren't different from the "father" Roads that they branch off of; if a "child" were to differ from the "father" Road too much, then it wouldn't be the branch of that main Road. But realize that I'm not saying that "Time" is a "child" Road; I did say "if it's a branch Road of the Flame Road," but that was only an "If". I'm saying that, according to Spitfire himself, "Time" is classified as part of the Flame Road itself, not as part of a branch Road of the Flame Road. Meaning, I don't think that "Time" is part of one of the 16 branch Roads. I also still consider the Apollon Road to be part of the Flame Road because when that Loli girl used "St. Elmo's Crossfire" Trick, she accessed "Flame" mode first, and specifically used one of Spitfire's Tricks. I already posted a page for that, so I'll just post the page for when Spitfire tells Kazu that "Time" is classified as part of the Flame Road. Let's start here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v22/c201/12.html, http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v22/c201/13.html, http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v22/c201/14.html--you see that? "Flame Road, Chapter of Restraint". That's what the "Time" Trick falls under. And this: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v22/c202/1.html. See what I mean now? Though, yeah, I actually am confused as to why Spitfire and Aeon teamed up, and O!G even went as far as to say that their Roads have become one, when both of them are Flame Road Riders.
About that thing Ikki and Mikan did, couldn't it just have been a coincidence? And Ikki and Mikan both have the personality type for brute strength, so yeah, I don't think that was a Trick. And, shouldn't any Wing Road Rider be able to do that, now that I think about it?
And I'd like you to rethink your idea of the Hurricane Road . . . the fact that it's Wing Road plus Over Road, and is now getting more Roads added in should mean that just having Bagram wouldn't really be enough. The only reason all of Ikki's Tricks using the wind so far are from the Wing Road, mainly, is because it's practically impossible to use Over Road Tricks without the Rumble Regalia, or at leas something with a ramjet engine; the only alternative is to do what Ikki did with the "Null Wind" Trick, but in that, he used the Grand Fang Firebird Trick being reflected off of Buccha's "moving wall" being combined with his own wind to create a big storm where he amplified the power of the Grand Fang Firebird Trick. He used the Trick that was reflected off of Buccha's "wall" as the ramjet engine, and also amplified it and his own wind to create a gigantic storm. But besides the "Null Wind" Trick, all of his other special Wind Tricks are from the Wing Road; let me repeat: all of his Wind-type Tricks are from the Wing Road besides the "Null Wind". Only the "Null Wind" Trick is from the Hurricane Road. And it'll remain that way until he gets the Storm Regalia. After that, we'll see the actual Hurricane Road.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 15, 2011 at 06:29 PM.
may i also add:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/air_gear/v18/c160/15.html (and i double checked the japanese script, it does say apollon road)
with this example, we have a clear example of a trick being carried over across different roads of the same type; you could also say that tricks that can be shared between roads can just as easily be called with one road one time and a different road another time. it gets really tricky when you bring in kazu's use of the flame regalia and churning out everyone's moves from roads that aren't his normal. is apollon a branch road based on the diagram of the 24? not certain, but as agito put it in the chapter 102, "there are as many roads and kings as there are people in the world" so for all we know, the apollon road is probably a branch road of a branch road of another branch road but it still follows the same type/family of flame. buccha himself has pretty much fallen into some branch off of the gaia road but its probably definitely one that's a way out there of a branching road.
anyways, since the jade road came into play, we've broken out of the 24 road mold quite simply because that diagram didn't have any examples of fusion roads. yet despite that, because of the regalias, it doesn't really matter that we did because the regalia are gonna stay the same (the shell may be tweaked but the core stays fundamentally the same - and i'm not even considering what is happening with the storm regalia) so regardless of the road it will somehow be part of one of the 8 road types. before we started adding more cores to the storm regalia, the hurricane road would have essentially been like the jade road which is a fusion road but it was considered a 9th road simply because there were plans to make a 9th regalia (before the rumble regalia was offered for parts). at that point, it could have really ended up creating a new main branch of roads that was more unique, but we suddenly went into reverse with all the other cores being combined that if you follow the diagram, would be come the central core road in which all others branched from. could we also consider that the origin of the 8 roads a 9th road (or 1st road since the other main 8 branched from that)? very likely, but aside from the sky regalia itself, there was no single regalia that could do that until now though it still lacks 2 cores.
Last edited by suarhnir; October 15, 2011 at 08:19 PM.
I know it was called the Apollon Road. But notice that Spitfire taught the "Time" stuff to Kazu as part of the Flame Road, not part of the Apollon Road, though he can run both. Then again, so can Kazu himself. And since Kazu and that Loli both showed that it's possible to use that Crossfire Trick by oneself, without help from another person, I'd say Spitfire could've done it himself if his leg hadn't been injured, and still call it the Apollon Road. The Apollon Road and the Flame Road, both are Spitfire's Roads. That's why Kazu can follow both, too; it's because he was trained by Spitfire.
And the Jade Road is a Gem-type Road, though it does have the Wing Road as part of it. The Hurricane Road is a Wind-type, so they aren't alike. And yeah, Koro-jii did say that the Wing Road was too narrow/restricting for Ikki, so you could say that the Hurricane Road is a wider and more powerful Wing Road, but it's already got the "Null Wind" Trick, a Trick that can't be used with Wing Road Tricks alone, nor can just the Wind Regalia by itself suffice, and now it's getting more Roads added in. But Ikki is originally a Wing Road Rider, so when he runs the Hurricane Road with the Storm Regalia, of course his Tricks will be based off of Wing Road Tricks, and will be primarily Wind. But still, with the additional Roads and Regalia parts, it'd become impossible to get the same result with just Bagram. So the Hurricane Road, while being based off of the Wing Road, is still different.
When it was just starting off, I was pretty adamant about the Hurricane Road being nothing more than an altered Wing Road, since of all of its Tricks so far are from the Wing Road and only the "Null Wind" Trick combines the Over Road into it, and I also said that it was only in the Regalia that it was part Over Road. But later, I got to think more on it, especially about how the Over Road is impossible to run without some kind of a ramjet engine, and now that there are more Regalia cores being fused into it, it's become even more of a different Road. I do still hope it doesn't add in the other two Roads, though. And if possible, I think Ikki should give back all of the cores that were given to him except for the Thunder core, so that the Hurricane Road can be Wing Road+Over Road+Rising Road. Of course, I'm not saying he should give them back immediately, I'm saying he should wait until he's fought Sora, or at least until Agito and Kazu are out of the hospital. The Gram Scale Tournament is still going, so if Ikki does decide to keep all of those cores, they could still make new Fang and Flame cores for Agito and Kazu so that they can have fully operational Regalia for the Final Round.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 16, 2011 at 03:06 AM.
there's a page in the volume version of the battle between aeon and spitfire vs nike, it comes after spitfire and aeon decide to team up but before they use the apollon road. spitfire tells the story of prometheus and how he defied the gods by giving fire to the world. that fire became a new 'power' and 'time' began and continues to 'burn'. it was spitfire's analogy of how the apollon road branched from the flame road.
however, it still stands with the current number of used regalia, they could only regard 8 kings and roads. if they didn't have someone as talented as kururu, or anyone like minami who started the research, then a 9th regalia wouldn't have been possible and ikki's hurricane road would have simply been regarded as a branching road of the wing road. just because it branches from it, doesn't mean its restricted to keep the same style of tricks, if ikki worked on it (which he has) he can start developing his own tricks that are not wholly based on wind but without a regalia it would mean he's a new kind of wind king (making it more of the evolution of the wind king to storm king and he would have to reclaim bagram).
the jade road is still a fusion road and the one trick that nike did that would probably count as an actual jade trick is the part where he walks upon the hardened air. gazelle's fusion road is also the same - she worked on mastering fang tricks when she had the thorn regalia, but now in agito/akito's body who were raised into the bloody road and fang tricks, is using her thorn tricks with the fang regalia in which lind used to save kaito and attack shalott and arthur. by acquiring the rumble regalia, ikki's wind based upbringing on a regalia that isn't bagram would also make the hurricane road a fusion road.
i personally don't want the storm regalia to keep all the cores, but yes, the storm regalia as it was first conceived in kururu's mind was strongly based on wind regalia and then it was redesigned off of the rumble regalia which became the first real step away from the wing road (something we never truly get to see in action). the additions of the other cores in my opinion are actually making it step back towards the sky regalia then to its own hurricane road (based on what we've seen on sf's use of the sky regalia).
The Sky Regalia isn't a step back, since the Sky Regalia is the Regalia of Regalia. If you combine all of the Eight Regalia into one, you get the power of all Eight Roads into one, and the power of all Eight Regalia into one; we're talking about the most powerful Regalia ever here.
And what I think of the Storm Regalia as is a combination of Kururu's replication of Bagram plus the Rumble, Thunder, Gem, Flame, and Fang cores. Ikki's still primarily a Wind-user, though, like I keep saying here, so even with all of these cores, his use of the Regalia would still be for powering up and augmenting/adding to his own wind. And all of the things he's done with the wind so far, I'm pretty sure Sora would also be able to do them if he tried (and knew enough about the Over Road--for the "Null Wind" Trick). Same for Mikan, since she's Sleeping Forest's Fuujin (Wind God), which basically makes her the Wind Queen of Sleeping Forest. The Gale Road is another of the Wind King's Roads, with the other one being the Wing Road.
I know that the Hurricane Road is a fusion Road. But it's based off of the Wing Road, and Ikki is primarily a Wing Road Rider. Am I wrong?
What you said about Spitfire's analogy of the Apollon Road was in the chapter we read on Mangafox and Manga-Access, I think. I'll have to go back and look.
what i meant on step backwards for the sky regalia is from the diagram. if the center 'road' that the first 8 branch from is the 1st step and going outwards is 'forward' then going back to the center would be 'backwards'. by all means, sky regalia would be the best of the best, but i was describing in a relative way.
so thinking about roads and kings and all that... we have regarded that lovely yet partially obscured diagram as mostly a roads progression and sometimes tie into the kings and regalia. so going on that tangent, what if that diagram was actually meant for the regalia progression? while between you and me, we can't come to a full agreement as to which is main and which is branch, what i think we can at least agree on is that there are 8 types of regalias. i'm not really trying to pick out which is the regalia of the main road but just in general, we do know that there are 8 types of regalia to work off of: gem, fang, thorn, thunder, wind, flame, rumble, pledge (we'll talk about those other regalias like gabi's and om's another time). the roads and regalia are based around that whether it be main or variation.
there could have been 1 - 4 grav kids with the same regalia type however, i think the very last to be developed and never fully realized while the 1st gen grav kids were still in the tower was the pledge regalia. in chapter 331, minami laid the foundation for gem, fang, thunder, wind, flame and rumble to understand gravity. thorn was last and the necessary component to bring about anti-gravity, but he never mentions pledge. my guess is that the reason why we don't see any regalia that even remotely looks like the pledge regalia is that it could have been developed last and late enough that it never saw fruition because the grav kids escaped by then. however, being a genius and the daughter of one of the key researchers, ine was able to complete the pledge regalia based on the left behind specs and data (different then kururu who was building from scratch and on what little she knows from working on a-ts themselves; ine had loads of data left behind so she was pretty much doing the final stage of completing the pledge regalia). this completed the 8th regalia which would serve as the 'link' between the other regalias in order to use the sky regalia. each regalia on their own has some sort of connection to the sky regalia and one of its main functions which can be used on its own (pledge and flame are the 2 prominent regalias that have been explained or shown in detail as to what it uses from the sky regalia; flame - access to memory/tricks stored in the database which we know as the Lon Houtz Bourne Street, pledge - access to chronos to control/utilize and process data). this last chapter had labeled the 'anti-gravity' portion under thorn and general 'control of space/movement' under wind. i think thunder has been given the 'power supply' role and the other roads i'm not sure...
this does put a twist on regalias for teh 1st gen for ones like simca and rune. if pledge wasn't really finished when they escaped, would it mean that they were using regalia of a different type? or were they using the building blocks of what would become part of the pledge regalia? at the least, no one was leaving the tower with some huge cross...
Well, it's not really concrete if the Pledge Regalia wasn't complete yet; they could have left the Tower with an incomplete Pledge Regalia, or "building blocks" for it like you said, or there could've been a way to "fold" it into a compact form.
And I think that since those six powers Dr. Minami mentioned are for defying gravity, "Wind," "Gem," "Thunder," "Rumble," "Flame," and "Fang," which are also the names of the Regalia themselves, it's safe to say that those six are the main ones of their types. Same for "Thorn". And since Ikki's Regalia is going to all of those six powers inside of it, it's going to be one hax Regalia. I can't wait to see it in action.
And if Ikki does keep them all, which he most likely will no matter how much some people might dread it, I'll be fine with it if they make replicas of the Gem, Flame, Fang, Thunder, and Rumble Regalia, and give them to those suited to use them. So that those Roads can continue to have "Kings". Since Kilik has decided to use a pseudo-Regalia, he might not accept a real Gem Regalia. If not, they could give the replicated Gem Regalia core to Buccha, and Kilik could train him. As for the Flame and Fang Regalia cores, well, we of course already have Kazu and Agito, so the replicated cores would go to them. The two left are the Rumble and Thunder Regalia. Nue might accept a Thunder Regalia core made by Kururu or someone else from Tool Toul To, since it seemed he just didn't want to use one made by Dr. Minami. If that also won't work, though, then maybe Blackburn could go back to being Thunder King. The tough one is the Rumble King's position. No one in Kogarasumaru could make a good Rumble King/Queen.
And once Sora has been arrested or killed, what's going to happen to the Wind Regalia? Who'll take it? I hope O!G has something good in mind. The Thorn Regalia Rika has could either stay with her (after her brainwashing is undone and she does actually want to stay as Thorn Queen), or it could go to Ringo if she'd accept it.
Anyway, about the Apollon Road, Kazu and Spitfire both ran/run it, and Kazu used the "St. Elmo's Crossfire" Trick as his Infinity Atmosphere Trick instead of "Infinite Inferno" which was said to be the Flame Road's Infinity Atmosphere Trick. And according to that Greek Mythology tidbit Spitfire talked about in the fight against the Takeuchi Brothers on the rooftop, Apollo created Flames and Time (IIRC). When teaching Kazu how to run the Flame Road, Spitfire did teach him the "Time" Tricks as part of the Flame Road's Restraint moves. The "cold flame" which can restrain the opponent's movement. Kazu and Aeon also used it to hide themselves and the rest of the team with heat convections, when they first got onto the aircraft carrier. "Time" uses heat, even though it's not actual flames, and so it's considered part of the Flame Road.
i figured it would be good to pull in your post from the other thread here...
i looked back at the scans and saw what you meant about the regalia sora used when going after gazelle to when he formed sf. they look very much similar so i would say yes they are the same. what this means is, the flashback that has sora receiving bagram was sometime prior to 10 years ago when he chased after gazelle (o!g's style has evolved so it's hard to just look at the early chapter flashbacks to the recent chapter flashbacks and consider them the same age, but going on these 'subtle' clues, we have to accept it). what it also means is that sora had claimed the other 20 regalias (which is probably also where nike's regalia ended up but he probably voluntarily gave it up for sora) before gazelle and this pretty much settles when sora and nike had hunted down their fellow 1st gen grav kids.
next thing that comes from this piece of knowledge, bagram was not sora's original regalia/core (its not the regalia he left the tower with at least) and the bagram we know now is fused 21 cores into 1. along with this chapter, sora lists of other regalias so the list of original regalias/cores we have so far are:
speed (really not sure on this, but the kanji was for 'jin' which doesn't function by itself in japanese but usually concerns speed)
then we have the two fused cores:
on the topic of a fused core, if the core's function was actually tied to the sky regalia then what minami did in fusing the different cores was combine the different access functions into one. kind of like making a universal remote control instead of having different ones for different functions (like having a separate controller for the tv, one for the sound system, one for the audio player, etc.) if minami was going for more of that approach, then he wouldn't necessarily need to use the physical attributes of all the other cores, just the ones that would help get to the suitcase (the ability to create a safe barrier to go through the 8000 Kelvin (nearly 14000 farenheit or approx 7700 celsius) and not fall to his doom and make it back out alive... on an off note, i googled the temperature at which the human body would ignite and eventually turn to ash - 1400 farenheit (o!g your physics fail us on a huge scale *facepalm* ^^;; )
as for what kururu will do with the cores that she is combining... i think that she is working more on a physical attribute of combining cores so not so much being able to utilize the sky regalia (aside from a few functions that would be helpful as a storm rider like the access of Lon Houtz Bourne Street) and more on using tricks from the different cores. before i said that the storm regalia being made from combined cores is like a step to becoming the sky regalia but if minami made bagram to be more focused on utilizing the sky regalia and kururu makes the storm regalia focused on utilizing tricks as a storm rider, then i guess we have a yin yang kind of road between the two. both regalia have pretty much taken all the other roads and brought them together but their 'functions' are very different if not opposite.
It was said that Sora and Nike were able to "catch the 'wind'" as children. That would mean they had the Wind Regalia. I think what the point of that part of the chapter was, was that Dr. Minami took the Bagram Sora originally had while in the Tower and combined the 20 cores he'd stolen into it, and had to teach him how to use it so that he could handle it better.
And from the flashback itself, Sora was older than he was in the Gazelle and Kaito flashback, when Dr. Minami gave him the new Bagram.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 21, 2011 at 04:06 PM.
the bagram sora uses now and 10 years ago when pursuing gazelle is not the same one he had when he left. it was very likely that sora's original regalia was geared towards wind due to sora's aptitude for it, but it still stands that the current bagram isn't one of the 'original' 28 cores that they all started with. from nike's lack of regalia and the sharing we see in the gazelle flashback, we can assume that nike had his combined into bagram as well. with the japanese script minami actually says he made a newly designed wind regalia that he called bagram that was made from combining 21 cores, not that he redesigned bagram and gave it back. in other words, bagram was the name given after the fusion of cores.
Yeah, but he did still say that it was a Wind Regalia then as well. It just probably wasn't called Bagram. Sora and Nike each had a Wind Regalia, but it wasn't a fusion Regalia yet and it wasn't exactly the same as it is now. And the Sora in the flashback in which he's given the Bagram by Dr. Minami is much older than the one in the Gazelle and Kaito flashback.
If both Sora and Nike were already Wing Road Riders, then the Wing Road isn't a fusion Road, and so its Regalia couldn't always have been a fusion Regalia. The Hurricane Road is a fusion Road with the Wing Road in it, but the Wing Road itself is one of the Eight Main Roads and is not a fusion Road.
Last edited by DragonOsman2; October 22, 2011 at 08:01 AM.