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Translations: Gintama 506 (2)
The Rinnegan being superior to the EMS is only a single factor when it comes to comparing the two. The fact remains that apart from his Rinnegan, we don't have a single feat or statement to base any of Nagato's strength on. On the other hand, we have actually seen what Sasuke can do outside of his Sharingan. Sasuke's fighting style is enhanced by his Sharingan, while Nagato's fighting style is completely based on his Rinnegan.
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Last edited by Rarhyx; October 20, 2011 at 01:53 PM.
Average/low class? Sasuke was already top of his class and fast enough to match Haku before he even began using his Sharingan in battle. Sasuke would be much more then average. Sasuke without his Sharingan would not change any of his physical abilities or fighting style much. He could very well still have his speed and some of his enhanced reflexes, considering Minato, Ee, and Gai are all speedsters with great reflexes that don't have a Sharingan. He would still have his fire and lightning techniques along with swordsmanship and genius intellect. Meanwhile, Nagato without his Rinnegan has nothing to fall back on.
Masterin all elemental transformation wouldn't necessarily require any skill for a Rin'negan user, just a Rin'negan.
Actually, you forget the little detail of his heritage, even without his Sharingan Sasuke has always been surounded by elites who taught him how to fight, and like Naruto/Hashirama/Madara/Itachi/Nagato his bloodline allowed him to excel where others failed.Quote:
Sasuke is actually heavily reliant on his Sharingan, much like Itachi, taking that away WILL change his fighting style. And Minato, E and all of them developed Jutsus of theyre own to enhance theyre already great stats, theyre bloodline doesnt suggest any added perks at all.
Fire = Uchiha trait. We dont know what would happen if he was to ever lose his Uchiha blood/heritage/lineage.
And didnt you just say that Nagato had other jutsus or training before he had the Rinnengan? So why are you saying he has nothing to fall back on? Again, you cannot put anything in stone without proof. You have no Idea what Nagato is truly capable of without his Rinnengan and we still have yet to see what he would be capable of with his Rinnengan and healthy body (i.e. mobility)
---------- Post added at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------
Since the Sharingan evolves into the rinnengan its pretty obvious the rinnengan is better.
Sasuke isn't heavily reliant on his Sharingan in his fighting style. The Sharingan does not physically affect his speed, or technique and weaponry usage, or intellect. The Sharingan, outside of MS usage, simply enhances his fighting ability. Sasuke can and has fought without using it and proven plenty skilled. The Uchiha bloodline does not automatically grant him perks and even if it did, we're talking about the Doujutsus themselves. And even without their unique skills, Minato and Ee were still quite fast. Lee has no unique skills to enhance himself, yet he was able to become one of the fastest ninjas around through simple hard work. Considering Sasuke has shown plenty of hard work, it wouldn't be impossible for him to make up the lack of his Sharingan with more effort.
Not having the Sharingan =/= not being an Uchiha. You're equating not using the Sharingan to not being an Uchiha no more and that's simply not the case here. And Sasuke's elemental nature has been implied to be lightning, meaning that learning those fire techniques would not have been easy. Regardless, Sasuke manage to learn another element without a far shorter time then normally possible.
No, Nagato didn't have anything before he gain his Rinnegan. Jiraiya didn't choose to teach them until he learnt that Nagato had the Rinnegan and by Jiraiya's own words it was due to the Rinnegan that Nagato was able to learn so much. He was completely dependent on his Rinnegan. Sasuke on the other hand was able to learn without having his Sharingan. He became top of his class, learn a multitude of fire techniques including one within a single week, and was able to match the speed of a faster ninja all without using his Sharingan. The whole point is that while Nagato has shown nothing outside his Rinnegan, Sasuke actually has shown several feats. There's nothing to suggest that Nagato would be strong without his Rinnegan while we know that Sasuke could be strong without his Sharingan. He may not be as strong, but he would still be stronger then most.
Last edited by Rikudou King; October 20, 2011 at 09:04 PM.
Originally Posted by zimbardo
No, it isn't. Raiton was his natural affinity. Katon was learned later. As for shunshin and kenjutsu, ofcourse they were increased thanks to Sharingan. That doesn't mean he LOSES them if he loses his Sharingan.
Originally Posted by jaymizzo
No it doesn't. Sharingan makes up for the tunnel vision gained when running with the Chidori to add piercing power to it. Sasuke doesn't always run with his Chidori (like when he was standing right next to Sakura and chose to stab her in the back). There was no tunnel vision, because he wasn't running like a bat out of hell, thus, his Sharingan wasn't needed. It's not like he has to turn it on to make the lightning chakra form in his hand...
Feats are impressive actions performed by a ninja. I'm not taking away Nagato's feats. I'm taking away his Rinnegan, just like I'm taking away Sasuke and Kakashi's Sharingan. That way you can guage what all three are capable of without their doujutsu. You're trying to say I'm nerfing Nagato, but you're not acknowledging that I'm doing the exact same thing to Sasuke and Kakashi. Take 3 ninja, put them next to eachother, and then remove their doujutsu, and guage their effectiveness without them. That's what I'm doing. Nagato has no feats without Rinnegan, thus it is acceptable to believe the feats he HAS performed are thanks entirely to his doujutsu alone.
Originally Posted by jaymizzo
No I'm not, and yes you do. See, I've stated atleast twice in this thread that the difference between Sasuke or Kakashi and Nagato, is the fact that they've been proven to be what makes their eyes powerful, not the other way around. Sasuke and Kakashi both, prior to even having Sharingan, were already the best in their generation. Sasuke, the best in his class, already using jutsu out of his rank, kicking the ass of Haku before his Sharingan kicked in... all of that stuff can be attributed to Sasuke, and Sasuke's efforts and training alone. No genetic alterations, no implanted eyes, nothing. Just good old fashioned training. Ditto for Kakashi, who had already ventured into shape manipulation, creating an A rank jutsu on his own. Taking away Nagato's Rinnegan forces us to look at what the man can do on his own. Some people are of the opinion that Nagato is more than a pair of eyes. I'm asking for proof. Proof that he compares to Kakashi, or Sasuke, in any way without their Sharingan.
You somehow managed to believe I'm attributing Sasuke and Kakashi's Sharingan feats to them, while taking away Nagato's Rinnegan feats. That's not what I'm doing. I'm taking away EVERYTHING performed thanks to ANYONE'S special eyes.
It's asking for too much, because we'll never see proof otherwise... but that's the point. The question is rhetorical.
Originally Posted by jaymizzo
Tobi, sure. Well, until we find out whether his S/T jutsu is Sharingan-based or not. If it is, and he didn't have his Sharingan, or Rinnegan, what, pray tell, can he do against anyone at all? He can use a doton to dig underground and hide. He has an incredibly impressive amount of experience and is really knowledgable, ontop of a really strong body... that's likely only strong thanks to being modded with Senju DNA... but yeah, he's a total cripple without the stolen abilities we've seen for the same reason Nagato is: because he hasn't shown NOT to be.
Now, Madara's a different story. His BASE movement speed (no jinchuuriki shroud, no raiton armor) allowed him to blitz a small army and kick the ever-loving crap out of a dozen or so ninja. He even used a katon so powerful it took what... 4 or 5 COMBINED suiton (and that's with elemental advantage!!) to put that shit out. That's a show of prowess that can't be blamed on eye power.
And I say base Nagato is slow because he's confined to a wheel chair, lmao. Unless he's got rockets on the back of it he's not outrunning anyone. Even when he powered himself up from absorbing Bee's chakra he remained immobile, watching his back instead of trying to blitz anyone because his legs wouldn't allow otherwise.
Originally Posted by jaymizzo
Where'd you get that from? Even if they had the same databook stat, Sasuke proved against Deidara that equal databook stats mean nothing, as he was still significantly faster than Deidara. Even more odd, their databook stat isn't equal, and Naruto has never (ever) shown to be able to match Sasuke blow for blow without surrounding him. Even then he was systematically owning his clones left and right. This is a complete miss on your behalf.
Again, I try to avoid resorting to databook stats but, Naruto's current base speed is 3.5. Sasuke's current base speed is 4.5 Naruto is NOT as fast as Sasuke.
That's not what I'm doing. I'm bringing to light what he's capable (or rather, incapable) of doing without his Rinnegan. The same way that people claim Sasuke's nothing without his eyes. The difference is that Sasuke's worth without the Sharingan actually can be argued againt thanks to shown feats. Nagato has none, so I want this thread to stand as proof that Nagato was fast-tracked to the top far easier than Sasuke was, and with less than half the effort. The thread asks what's superior, Rinnegan or Sharingan. The answer is obviously Rinnegan, but because of that, people will mistake Nagato's Rinnegan as proof that he's a better ninja than Sasuke, Kakashi, Itachi, or anyone else with a doujutsu.Originally Posted by Oathencrantz
I'm clarifying that Nagato's superiority on the battlefield COMES from the superiority of the Rinnegan. I'm not nerfing anyone. I'm putting their strength in perspective. Likewise, I don't know why you're annoyed by Nagato being discussed without Rinnegan, when I'm "nerfing" Sasuke and Kakashi in the EXACT same thread (comparing Sharingan-less versions of them both to a Sharingan-less Nagato).
Last edited by ninjabot; October 20, 2011 at 10:01 PM.
why are you guys arguing? it has nothing to do with the topic. that said its also stupid because if those characters didn't have their abilities their whole stories would have changed so we really can't say exactly what they would be like. for example - haku probably would have killed sasuke and naruto were it not for his sharingan, kakashi wouldn't have taught him the chidori which means he wouldn't have access to any other of his variations, he would have never been wanted by orochimaru and wouldn't have gotten his training etc and nagato would have been even different as he would have died with yaihko and konan vs that rock chunin. we can't know his elemental natures as the rinningan gives him all of them. the only thing we could really give him would be that his high chakra capacity is his because of his uzumaki blood.
it was said without sharingan sasuke can't do do any shit.
why wouldn't there be any raiton jutsus without sharingan?
he didn't copy them, he created them alone, they are just based on chidori
I don't know where any of you got that no Sharingan = no raiton, no one even stated that.
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Look, put it this way. When it comes to these kinds of threads, i.e. Rinnegan vs Sharigan or Nagato vs Uchiha X, you've always got those 2 or 3 Uchiha supporters (plus some followers) who start off by removing the Rinnegan from Nagato and state, "Nagato's nothing without his dojutsu, look what Itachi and Sasuke can do!". Then you've got the Rinnegan/Nagato supporters who rebuttal by saying, "remove Itachi and Sasuke's Sharingan, as well as everyone elses traits and characteristics, i.e. Kimimaro's bones, Haku's ice, Neji's Byakugan, Shino's bugs, Oonoki's Jinton, etc etc, on and on, and you're left with..... well, nothing because that's what they've built their whole repertoire around". What some of you are trying to do simply doesn't work.
No one says that Itachi and Sasuke are nothing without their Sharingan because they are still geniuses, but still rely heavily on their dojutsu; especially Itachi, the guy who activates his Mangekyo Sharingan for no reason at times.
With the recent chapter pointless to argue what is the stronger one rinnegan or sharingan...
With what people are arguing if take away rinnegan,sharingan or byakugan from people who use them will equals to becoming konohamaru... Sasuke didn't have anything worth praising without his sharingan same goes with Neji without his byakugan... That being said if Sasuke and Neji without byakugan/sharingan will be Lee's b!tch...
To put it simply when Neji trains as a child he trains while he use his byakugan and when Sasuke trains he use his Sharingan too like when Naruto trains to have the FRS he use his monstrous chakra with bunshins to easily achieve it.