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View Poll Results: Which of the ability is more haxxed?

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  • Book of the End

    5 23.81%
  • Kanzen Saimin

    15 71.43%
  • A draw

    1 4.76%
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Thread: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

  1. #46
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    That thing actually became a legitimate thing, because Kubo then prooved in the last Databook that Harribel was Vasto Lord and thus, I believed also prooved that it was part of the plot, but not included in the manga. There were some things like this also in One Pice.

    Of course the posibility of taking damage always exists. Even Yama can be damaged to some extent, but I believe it's quite obvious that Koma will be quite an esy prey for Shunsui, especially as we know that Shunsui was capable to match Starrk's speed and his Shikai is too treacky for Koma to handle.

  2. #47
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    The last databook did not confirm that the top espada were VLs. If I recall it was somewhat ambiguous on the matter and it could be taken either as if they were at the VL level or that they were VL before. Of course, if the espada were at the VL level then they naturally would not have had the power of a VL before becoming an arrancar. The ulquiorra situation is even murkier as even if the databook showed a chapter which with ulquiorra fitting a VL description to a T, he still apparently kept his regeneration instead of gaining power and on top of that had a second stage of release which no other espada had.

  3. #48
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    I think it was quite obvious that it was stated that Yami, Starrk, Barragan, Harribel, Ulquiorra were Vasto Lords before. And Wondi also, but he wasn't an Espada.

  4. #49
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Now that Tsukishima vs Byakuya fight is almost over (barring a last minute surprise), we can have a closer look at BOE's relative strength. Let's compare BOE with KS under different conditions:

    1) The opponent knows about BOE and KS's ability and the opponent isn't affected by it before the fight.

    Going by Aizen's fights with Isshin and Ichigo, it's not easy to put someone under hypnosis. If you're not under hypnosis, KS isn't much different than a sealed sword. Going by Tsukishima's fight with Byakuya, even if you're not affected by BOE, Tsukishima can learn everything about you by cutting your zanpakuto and he can modify the past of inanimate objects and use them against you. This information can help Tsukishima create an opening (as in Byakuya fight) to use BOE's ability on someone by making a cut. Not all cuts end a fight, especially if your opponent is at least as strong as you, therefore someone has much better chances to use BOE successfully compared to KS in this scenario. In other words, IMHO Tsukishima would have lost faster with KS against Byakuya.

    2) The opponent knows about KS or BOE beforehand but still gets affected by KS or BOE during the fight.

    BOE takes time to show its full effect, so an opponent can improvise to defeat BOE in the meantime. KS's hypnosis kicks in immediately and defending yourself against it is much harder than against BOE. However a) as I mentioned it, putting someone under KS's hypnosis in combat is less likely compared to BOE's hypnosis 2) BOE still lets you know about all of your opponent's moves which makes it relatively easy to prolong the fight until everything is over. So I think KS is better in this scenario but not by a large margin.

    3) The opponent knows about KS or BOE beforehand but is affected by KS or BOE before the fight.

    Aizen still has to fight and defeat his opponent and there's a chance of losing however small it is. Tsukishima has already won and not only that but also he strengthened his forces by having a new ally on his side. Even if the opponent resists his influence, he can still cause a memory overload (as on Chad and Orihime) to defeat the opponent without lifting a finger. BOE is much better in this scenario.

    4) The opponent doesn't know about KS or BOE beforehand and isn't affected by KS or BOE before the fight.

    Aizen can put everyone under hypnosis without arousing suspicion whereas Tsukishima still has to cut them. KS is much better in this scenario.

    5) Owner of KS or BOE pretends to be a friend and uses his ability in a lengthy time frame with patience to accomplish his plans.

    Well, if Aizen had BOE instead of KS, he wouldn't have gathered espada to fight RGs, SS captains would have fought RGs as his allies. Perhaps he could have convinced Yamamoto to give him the Royal Key. Ichigo would have had a hard time fighting his own friends or getting help from them against Aizen. Actually he could have made Ichigo fight on his side by cutting him before it was too late. Aizen would have learned everything about Urahara and his studies by using BOE's ability which would have been extremely useful for his research. BOE seems to be better in this scenario.

    6) Against multiple opponents who aren't affected by KS or BOE but know about it before the fight.

    Putting someone under hypnosis will still be hard for Aizen but if he somehow succeeds to do so, he can affect many of them at once. He can also use affected ones to attack his friends by misdirecting them using KS. Tsukishima has to use his ability on them one by one but if he somehow cuts some of them, they can join him in the long run, which will be much necessary when he is out of energy in the later stages of the fight. Defeating multiple opponents is very hard under these circumstances, so I give it to KS because Aizen can hit the jackpot by affecting 2-3 of them at the same time, there's no lottery ticket for Tsukishima which makes it almost impossible for him to win.

    7) Against multiple opponents who aren't affected by KS or BOE and don't know about it before the fight.

    KS has a huge advantage in this scenario.

    8) Against multiple opponents who are affected by KS or BOE.

    Aizen has to fight and, if they're sufficiently strong, exhaust himself to defeat his opponents. Tsukishima shakes hands with his friends and they move on to their next enemy. I give it to BOE by a large margin.

    Verdict: I would rather have BOE because it provides me with friends and knowledge. On the other hand, KS provides me with relatively easy victories against people which are otherwise potential assets with BOE. Even then KS's power isn't absolute and needs safeguards against people with devastating power. BOE has no such shortcoming and can actually make these strong people fight on your side which may prove crucial in a scheme. But KS is much more powerful than BOE if the opponents don't have prior knowledge of it, and it can be argued that people can fight the effects of BOE, which makes a proper comparison a moot point.

  5. #50
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member daman246's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    BOE is useless if the person using it doesnt have enough strengh like yukishima his so arrogant that he taught just because he knew all of byakuyas moves he was able to block them and look what happen instant Hole trough the chest. Like Gin said it doesnt matter if you have hax ability, if you arent strong enough to balance the ability with your speed,power is useless
    Overall KS pwns BOE in every scenario
    Boe doesnt work like above said, is not that simple. im sure if tsukishima knew all of aizens or yamamotos move he still wouldnt be able to do shit. just imagine tsukishima knowing all of aizens move he shit himself cause hel no that he stands no chance

    ---------- Post added at 09:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

    Like the person above me said aizen doesnt need to fight to win a fight he can just make an illusion to make the person believe that his leaving or wining the fight thats all.

    if its sakanda vs BOE im sure even sakanade will win reverse everything for anybody besides aizen and im sure they will lose. aizen can hypnotise himself to make himself believe that right is left and left is right so sakanade had to no effect

  6. #51
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Quote Originally Posted by daman246 View Post
    BOE is useless if the person using it doesnt have enough strengh like yukishima his so arrogant that he taught just because he knew all of byakuyas moves he was able to block them and look what happen instant Hole trough the chest. Like Gin said it doesnt matter if you have hax ability, if you arent strong enough to balance the ability with your speed,power is useless
    Overall KS pwns BOE in every scenario
    You mean "Aizen owns Tsukishima in every scenario", don't you? In other words, if Aizen had BOE and Tsukishima had KS, BOE would own KS in every scenario? Did I understand you correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by daman246 View Post
    Like the person above me said aizen doesnt need to fight to win a fight he can just make an illusion to make the person believe that his leaving or wining the fight thats all.

    if its sakanda vs BOE im sure even sakanade will win reverse everything for anybody besides aizen and im sure they will lose. aizen can hypnotise himself to make himself believe that right is left and left is right so sakanade had to no effect
    I don't think Aizen can hypnotize himself but this is beside the point. lol If Aizen had BOE, Shinji wouldn't have fought Aizen, Shinji would have fought RGs as Aizen's friend, this is my point. Having Shinji on your side is much better than defeating Shinji. If Aizen didn't have hogyoku, he still could achieve his goal by making SS, Urahara's group and vizards fight on his side against RGs but he couldn't defeat RGs with KS which RGs knew about.

    I agree with you that KS is better than BOE in a straight fight with no prior knowledge of KS (or BOE for that matter) because showing the release of your shikai is easier than cutting someone. But if the opponent has prior knowledge, presumably it's very hard for Aizen to put someone under hypnosis. With BOE, Aizen could still fight and cut someone like Isshin. He could set traps using BOE's ability to create an opening.

    If I were Aizen, I would rather have BOE because it would serve my purpose better. Cut Urahara and learn everything the most intelligent man knows, how convenient! Do you need experience? Cut Yamamoto. Is it hard to cut Yamamoto? No worries, you will have your friends (other captains) that will help you. IMHO BOE is the best ability for a long term evil scheme until we see a time travel ability or something of that sort. lol

  7. #52
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Idk, couldn't you place people under hypnosis to help you? Basically have them see things incorrectly? It's probably pretty difficult to do something like that for a long time though, or else Aizen would've just had the Captains helping him. I mostly agree that BOE > KS if I'm Aizen, hahaha
    Avoiding debates with people below a certain level of English comp.

  8. #53
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    The problem of book of the end in the battlefield are the limitations of the ability itself. The ability is very practical for a number of reasons however the fact of the matter is that it cannot intrinsically alter memories for them to say something else. The ability is limited in that tsukishima can only insert himself into people's memories however the memory in itself will on principle be the same. lets say yamamoto gives byakuya an order to brutally murder tsukishima because he is an enemy. What could tsukishima's ability do in this scenario? Tsukishima has the choice to either make it so that he appears in the memory as a third party or he can make it so that he is the one giving the order to byakuya. Neither of this would change in that in the end byakuya will have received an order to kill tsukishima so even if tsukishima alters the memories and manipulates byakuya in a fight it won't change that byakuya got an order to kill him. It is perfectly possible for tsukishima to take advantage of the manipulated memories to make it seems as if a bond is there however in the end if the victim is determined to kill you it does not matter. KS is far more practical in a fight as the illusion is by all intents and purposes flawless.

  9. #54
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    ^ I think BOE's ability takes time to be fully active. By saying "to be fully active", I mean "to change someone's past so that this person won't attack you under any circumstances and be willing to help you." I don't know how long it takes but I think Byakuya would stop attacking Tsukishima at one point. Luckily he ended the fight before it was too late.

    When Tsukishima first cut Orihime, she had mixed feelings about Tsukishima but after some time she was ready to help Tsukishima against Ichigo even though Tsukishima was clearly Ichigo's enemy. If Tsukishima's ability can influence someone to the extent that this person can take action against her sweetheart, would it be far-fetched to think that Byakuya would stop listening to Yamamoto's orders?

    All Tsukishima had to do was stall Byakuya and it wasn't that hard because arguably even Byakuya's kido and bankai were useless against him. If BOE can make someone like Tsukishima fight a captain's bankai, would Byakuya have a shred of chance against someone like Aizen? Which is better: "Aizen with KS & Byakuya (dead)" or "Aizen with BOE & Byakuya (friend)"?

    KS is certainly better if your goal is to defeat someone who is already under hypnosis or is about to be hypnotized because he doesn't know what KS does. What could Tsukishima possibly do against Byakuya with KS? Byakuya knew about Tsukishima's ability beforehand and KS doesn't have extra abilities to create an opening.

    There are circumstances which KS's ability trumps BOE's. But when we look at the big picture, IMHO BOE is high up in the threat scale. BOE can be used to make situations more complicated and dire than KS can ever do. BOE can give you great experience & knowledge with one cut. You can cut Tessai and be a kido master if you have the talent, you can cut Urahara and gain knowledge which can help you greatly in your research. How can KS make up for that?

  10. #55
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member daman246's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    BOE is already the max tsukishima can do KS is a shikai Remember this what do you guys think a Bankai of KS will be Super hax

  11. #56
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Quote Originally Posted by daman246 View Post
    BOE is already the max tsukishima can do KS is a shikai Remember this what do you guys think a Bankai of KS will be Super hax
    I am not sure Bankai would mean a further extension to his Shikai's abilities. KS is already complete hypnosis. I am failing to imagine how his bankai could improve on that. Nevertheless, Aizen's bankai could have been colossal but it isn't shown and we are left with speculation.

  12. #57
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    ^I agree, I also do not see how aizen's ability could be further improved. The ability is in itself perfect as it is, there is already no limit to what aizen can do with it once the target is caught. The only thing which I can imagine could be improved is the process to catch someone under hypnosis however I doubt aizen would have hesitated to use it if he had such a thing. IMO aizen's bankai will be one of those rare cases where it is innately different from its respective shikai (kinda like soifon whose shikai ability was not improved with bankai, she simply went some other way). Or mayuri whose bankai abilities have nothing to do with his shikai ability.

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  14. #58
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Soifon bankai can be viewed as improvement from her shikai in that its an attempt to one shot her opponent. Mayuri's shikai uses poison to cause paralysis, the bankai improves upon that by becoming deadly.

  15. #59
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    If Aizen's perfect hypnosis is similar to Naruto's perfect clones which can't be distinguished with five senses, it can be further improved in a number of ways (like real tangible clones which can move and fight without Aizen's presence) but this is beyond the scope of this topic. I don't want to spoil the new chapter, all I can say for the moment is that BOE's influence on people may not be as powerful as I thought before.

  16. #60
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    The thing is Tsukishima can only replace people who have already existed in your life. If your past does not allow him the room, he won't be allow to worm his way in, plus personality is also a factor. Its likely after scanning through Byakuya's past, he realized the best role to take was training rival/mentor. But Byakuya is the type to kill anyone who gets in his way lol

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