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View Poll Results: Which of the ability is more haxxed?

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21. You may not vote on this poll
  • Book of the End

    5 23.81%
  • Kanzen Saimin

    15 71.43%
  • A draw

    1 4.76%
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Thread: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

  1. #1
    The Original 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member thornofcarrion's Avatar
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    Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    I think title is self-explanatory. Both of these abilities are remarkable in their own way. These abilities give the users colossal leverage over their opponents. The question is:

    1. which of these abilities is more versatile in execution
    2. Damage they inflict on the opponent
    3. The effectiveness facing a single opponent to a group of opponents

    Discuss away ...

  2. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Book of End is far more versatile in execution since Tsukishima can use it affect non-living objects as well

    Kanzen Saimin is the type of ability, along with Aizen being pretty strong, that makes fighting him seem like a pretty dire situation. If you are already caught in the illusion then anything barring an area effect attack is pretty much useless. After being caught...it becomes much, much easier to follow through with a kill.

    Book of End, is really messed up...its also a mindfuck ability like Kanzen Saimin, but Tsukishima can make so that he's your best friend. Your beloved cousin, your brother etc. Its sick, he could make it so that you'd want to die for him if your past allows. Plus it as the added fact that if he creates an emotion conflict big enough he can drive you insane, all Kanzen Samin did was trap you in an illusion it never caused an actual mental harm.

    Kanzen Saimin is much better for group fighting since a single release can catch a lot of people at once. And we have an example of this in FKT when he used his abilities to easily control the fight between several opponents at once. Book of End doesn't seem as practical in a group setting, since it requires him to make contact...so if he's against several opponents that are ranged he could be in for a lot of problems, possibly overkill. The fact that he can manipulate non-living objects though, to set traps and such is a saving grace, he could use this to his advantage but Kanzen Saimin has the advantage in this regard.

    On a single opponent either ability is pretty good, though its kinda weird if Aizen comes up to you and say "hey, look at my sword" lol

    Either ability pretty much guarantees a win in a one on one scenario, Book of End is a little more iffy in that the manipulation depends on the target's past and their personality.
    Last edited by cracker; October 18, 2011 at 12:17 PM.

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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Actually I would say that Aizen's complete hypnosis is better, but actually if some Shinigami had Tsukishima's ability as his Zan's ability it would be also pretty hax, but this ability alone will not make him strong. Both Aizen's and Tsukishima's abilities aren't directly battle-oriented. Actually Aizen was damn strong and that was why he managed to fight so many strong opponents. For Tsukishima to fight at least two Captains he needs to have at least Byakuya's Reiatsu level. Otherwise he won't manage to take down those insanely strong opponents. His only chance is to fight Mayuri and Toushiro, cause Mayuri is the weakest Captain by far and Toushiro is easily manipulated, but even though to fight two of them at the same time he will need to have at least Byakuya's Reiatsu level.
    It's Bleach rule that was shown through all the manga - the most important thing is Reiatsu level.

  4. #4
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    I mostly thought of abilities themselves (since this particular scenario called for it) rather than the user because Aizen was much, much stronger than Tsukishima.

  5. #5
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    First, I'll quote my post from spoiler thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
    Like many people, I think Tsukishima's ability is more hax than Aizen's. If Aizen had Tsukishima's ability, things would have been much easier, no need for espada or WW, he even could have manipulated SS to fight RGs. Aizen's ability activates by showing the release of his shikai, Tsukishima's ability activates by cutting his enemy, considering that Aizen had been pretending to be a friend, he would have had no problems cutting every captain one by one. Aizen also wouldn't have needed to show his shikai release to every shinigami in Seireitei, cutting all captains and vice-captains would have been more than enough. On top of that, Aizen's shikai is kinda useless if his opponent knows of the trick but Tsukishima can activate it on anybody by simply fighting and cutting him. Tsukishima's ability also allows him to use inanimate objects without actually taking his enemy under control, which is an added bonus.

    Thanks to this hax, Tsukishima managed to mess up Ichigo more than Aizen would have been able to. If Tsukishima has the ability to control zanpakuto by simply clashing swords, it will be the definition of "absurdly overpowered". The only reasons why Aizen was far more dangerous than Tsukishima were that Aizen was still very powerful with his base stats and he had done enormous amount of preparation. I would like to see a "What if" mini arc which features the captains in KT (who were all cut by Tsukishima) vs remaining captains in SS. That would be one hell of a show. lol
    IMHO the only scenario where Aizen's ability trumps Tsukishima's is when Aizen fights people who have no idea about his shikai ability. Showing a shikai release is much easier than cutting your opponent but Tsukishima's ability can compensate for this weakness by making use of inanimate objects to create an opening. Once abilities are successfully activated, Tsukishima's ability is much better, Aizen still has to fight and defeat his opponents (albeit fairly easily), Tsukishima simply befriends them. Had Yamamoto been under his control, Tsukishima wouldn't have needed WW to defeat his opponent, he would have taken the key from Yamamoto and used him and other captains to fight RGs. Can it get any better?

    As a side note, I think Kubo misnamed Aizen's ability, it's not hypnosis, it's illusion. Tsukishima's ability is real hypnosis which means "to make a mind open to suggestions". Can Tsukishima's ability be suppressed with willpower? Possibly. Does it have limits? Probably. Is it better than KS? IMHO all things considered, yes.

    ---------- Post added at 12:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon View Post
    It's Bleach rule that was shown through all the manga - the most important thing is Reiatsu level.
    I think everybody agrees that Aizen is much stronger than Tsukishima. We're strictly comparing abilities, i.e. how powerful would Tsukishima be if he had Aizen's reiatsu & battle abilities and vice versa?

  6. #6
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Actually Kanzem Saimin is a much more dangerous ability, sure Book of end is hax beyond belief, but it requires direct contact. Kanzem shima is basicly there forever, you cannot snap out of it unless you hold the blade in its unreleased form. Meaning in all that time, Aizen or who ever the wielder might be, could easily mindfuck you beyond belief, Kanzem saimin is like the Green Lantern ring, its only limit is the wielders imagination (and cruelty)

    Book of End on the other hand is very messed up, but one major flaw is that you can strike the wrong person and end up getting killed because u immitated the wrong person in theyre past. Or Changed something that could lead to your death.

    Personally ability wise id rather have Kanzen Saimin, it actually allows me to take control of the situation much easier, and doesnt require me to do much rather than show off my blade
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Actually Kyoka Suigetsu is more hax. Even if Tsukishima cuts Byakuya, Kenpachi or Yama they will destroy him, because they weight their duty and pride more than their friends or relatives sometimes and Ken can just cut anyone with whom he wants to fight. Aizen in the same time can perform some mindfuck as he used against Hitsu, Kioraku, Soi Fong and Shinji in FKT.
    Also, Aizen's ability is easier to activate.

  8. #8
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    I think they're both equally hax, but I would use Kanzen Saimin, mostly because it's much easier to use the ability. I'd consider KS being more hax because it's so easy to use the ability. With Book of the End you are more at risk for a counterattack.

  9. #9
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    I would think kyoka suigetsu is the better ability overall. Kyoka suigetsu can be used on many people at once for one thing. In that regard it is far more practical. In turn book of the end requires the user to slash the target. It is far more difficult to use as when it comes to it using book of the end requires you to essentially defeat your enemy. From that point onward the uses of the two are actually different. Book of the end creates genuine loves and affection from a target, KS creates illusions. The issue here is that ultimately aizen DOES NOT NEED book of the end. He can already manipulate and mind rape people WITHOUT an ability. Aizen was a murderous treacherous fuck for over 110 years and no one ever knew the better, he was a smooth talker and could hit a never from 100 miles. I do think comparing book of the end and KS is like comparing apples and oranges though, both things do completely different things. More so, aizen did not use his ability to mind fuck anyone, NEVER. He used it to deceive however his actual mind raping was done through actual ass kicking and talking.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    lol I'm sure you know you know better. Hinamori was conflicted between the Aizen she knew as captain and the actual Aizen with all the evil desires, Kanzen Saimin contributed to the overall situation but not to any direct mental damage.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Seriously, this thread has to be seriously reconsidered. Aizen never used his illusion to mind rape people, not even once. If we are comparing mind rape capacities then we have to match up book of the end with aizen's tongue and I would still argue aizen's tongue is sharper (pun intended). Hinamori was severely mind raped however none of it had to do with kyoka suigetsu. Hinamori was the result of half decade of listening to the poison oozing from aizen's mouth. She feel so deeply for what he said that her brain might as well have been goo by the time the manga started. Kyoka suigetsu merely got her impaled by hitsugaya (and not in the way the hitsugaya dreams off every night).

  12. #12
    The Original 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member thornofcarrion's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    MY question, how effective would be Book of the End if Tsuki faces 2+ captains? Or lets say, the same scenario when Aizen faced SS in FKT. And, SS team was not stabbed by Tsuki prior to their encounter.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Well, stabbing a captain is not an easy thing at all, let alone several of them. Aizen is strong as hell so it is entirely possible someone of his level would have progressively turn the captains against each other but only because the guy is insanely strong. Still, I would argue KS is more effective in a battle. It does not require you to stab the captains and it affects everyone at once if the conditions are met. I think book of the end being capable of affecting only one person at a time is a huge disadvantage.

  14. #14
    The Original 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member thornofcarrion's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, stabbing a captain is not an easy thing at all, let alone several of them. Aizen is strong as hell so it is entirely possible someone of his level would have progressively turn the captains against each other but only because the guy is insanely strong. Still, I would argue KS is more effective in a battle. It does not require you to stab the captains and it affects everyone at once if the conditions are met. I think book of the end being capable of affecting only one person at a time is a huge disadvantage.
    Exactly the response I expected. Of course, KS is far more effective in battlefield. Even if SS was not effected by the hypnosis prior to FKT encounter, all Aizen had to do was use it in front of them, probably standing far from them. Whereas, Tsuki needs to stab everyone. I can't that happen. Like I said, Tsuki can only stab opponents as strong as a captain, if he faces them 1-1 or he sneak up on them. Even if he sneaks, he can't stab them all at once.

  15. #15
    ~ Forum Fixer ~ 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Miyagi's Avatar
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    Re: Book of the End vs. Kanzen Saimin - which is more HaXXeD

    Quote Originally Posted by thornofcarrion View Post
    MY question, how effective would be Book of the End if Tsuki faces 2+ captains? Or lets say, the same scenario when Aizen faced SS in FKT. And, SS team was not stabbed by Tsuki prior to their encounter.
    I think such a comparison gives unfair advantage to KS. What if other captains knew of KS's ability and they weren't under hypnosis? If Aizen had "book of the end", he could have stabbed his opponents and converted them anyway but KS would have been absolutely useless under such circumstances. What if Tsukishima was a captain in SS and had secretly converted all other captains one by one? Would there have been a war in FKT at all?

    If Tsukishima was in Aizen's shoes, he could have won easier. If Aizen is in Tsukishima's shoes right now, KS will be less useful than book of the end. In either case, Tsukishima's ability seems better. Aizen's preparation shouldn't matter.

    ---------- Post added at 01:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Still, I would argue KS is more effective in a battle. It does not require you to stab the captains and it affects everyone at once if the conditions are met. I think book of the end being capable of affecting only one person at a time is a huge disadvantage.
    But the conditions will never be met if the opponents are aware of KS's ability. In this case, fighting multiple captains will be a huge disadvantage for Aizen. Give Aizen the book of the end and he can still turn the tables by stabbing weaker captains and make them fight on his side.

    The plot gave Aizen a head start by already putting everybody else under hypnosis. If Aizen had Tsukishima's ability, IMHO we would be watching SS vs RGs right now. If Tsukishima had Aizen's ability, would he be more of a threat to Byakuya? Would he do any better? Considering that he would be unable to tamper with the ground or Byakuya's zanpakuto, he would have lost faster. (Assuming he has already lost lol)

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