The Origins Of Naruto

[BuNKiTZ]

I read & watch both because they have to stick to the story line, plus you uncover information about the supporting characters. Naruto is the reincarnation of the 60PS thanks to 572 meaning he had some origins to the Senju clan. And if you recall Hiroshima Senju was recognized as a person to be immortal/senjutsu and have various jutsu/Senju the words are completely different in English but guess what Hiroshima possess both attributes. * also Tobi is an Uzumaki how else would he have known Pain/Nagato was an Uzumaki by blood, and be able to maintain both Sharringan and Rinningan plus tailed beast.

---------- Post added at 10:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 PM ----------

And about the flying thunder god being a Senjutsu tech. it still stands. Senjutsu allows you to enhance your chakra 100x the fact that it took # people to do it means that they needed to combine enough chakra to do it. And according to Pa Frog only people with enormous amount of chakra can perform Senjutsu. The Kekkie Genkia that the Uzumaki and Senju Possess is their longevity, seals, and chakra

Hiroshima Senju?? I think you're talking about Hashirama... Also, the Hiraishin no Jutsu isn't a Senjutsu. It's a time-space ninjutsu. That makes use of special markings (words). That's been said so many times already. And you HAVE to be in Sage Mode to use Senjutsu. That's the entire point of Sage Mode and Senjutsu's. If you could use them outside the Sage Mode, why the hell bother with Sage Mode?

And Tobi? An Uzumaki?? He doesn't have to be one to know all these. That's what makes him the series' antagonist, he's evil, mysterious, and knows stuff. That's a characteristic most villains have.

And also, when was it stated that Tobirama could use the Hiraishin no Jutsu?? Minato's the only one who could do that. He made the jutsu himself, and he taught it to his bodyguards (forgot their names), who had to be together to use the jutsu. And the fact that he made that jutsu clearly proves that it's not a kekkai genkai. That's not even an arguement anymore. It's an original Space-Time ninjutsu that Minato developed himself, not a kekkai genkai. And the only thing that only both Minato and Tobirama could do was that touching the ground and sensing the number of enemies thing.

[zArseniic]

Hiroshima Senju?? I think you're talking about Hashirama... Also, the Hiraishin no Jutsu isn't a Senjutsu. It's a time-space ninjutsu. That makes use of special markings (words). That's been said so many times already. And you HAVE to be in Sage Mode to use Senjutsu. That's the entire point of Sage Mode and Senjutsu's. If you could use them outside the Sage Mode, why the hell bother with Sage Mode?

And Tobi? An Uzumaki?? He doesn't have to be one to know all these. That's what makes him the series' antagonist, he's evil, mysterious, and knows stuff. That's a characteristic most villains have.

And also, when was it stated that Tobirama could use the Hiraishin no Jutsu?? Minato's the only one who could do that. He made the jutsu himself, and he taught it to his bodyguards (forgot their names), who had to be together to use the jutsu. And the fact that he made that jutsu clearly proves that it's not a kekkai genkai. That's not even an arguement anymore. It's an original Space-Time ninjutsu that Minato developed himself, not a kekkai genkai. And the only thing that only both Minato and Tobirama could do was that touching the ground and sensing the number of enemies thing.

The Rasengan isnt a Senjutsu but it can be inhanced by Senju Mode. And my point is only Senju or Uzumaki's have the chakra capacity to use Senjutsu bec of their Kekkiai Genkia of having high chakra, longevity, and seals. Also Tobirama Senju was the person who created the Space-time ninjutsu Minato just perfected it KNOW YOUR FACTS* And you easLy accept that Tobi has no UZUMAKI TRAITS only that he's a bad guy who can easly acquire both Sharingan and Rinnegan plus tailed beast without a powerful sealing tech. which what the Uzumaki clan is known for!? Dude if Tobi was a Uzumaki it would explain his motives and actions perfectly & we also know not all Uzumaki's were destroyed but they are powerful.

---------- Post added at 12:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

And no shit Sherlock I was talking about Hashirama Senju. Thanks for the spell check

[BuNKiTZ]

The Rasengan isnt a Senjutsu but it can be inhanced by Senju Mode. And my point is only Senju or Uzumaki's have the chakra capacity to use Senjutsu bec of their Kekkiai Genkia of having high chakra, longevity, and seals. Also Tobirama Senju was the person who created the Space-time ninjutsu Minato just perfected it KNOW YOUR FACTS* And you easLy accept that Tobi has no UZUMAKI TRAITS only that he's a bad guy who can easly acquire both Sharingan and Rinnegan plus tailed beast without a powerful sealing tech. which what the Uzumaki clan is known for!? Dude if Tobi was a Uzumaki it would explain his motives and actions perfectly & we also know not all Uzumaki's were destroyed but they are powerful.

---------- Post added at 12:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

And no shit Sherlock I was talking about Hashirama Senju. Thanks for the spell check

First, chill out. Second, how does being an Uzumaki explain his goal of wanting to conquer the world and putting everyone under an infinite Tsukuyomi...?? I can't see the connection... And when was it stated that Tobirama made the Hiraishin no Jutsu?? I know he can use Space-Time Ninjutsu, but I don't remember it ever being stated that he made the Hiraishin no Jutsu...

[zArseniic]

Have you heard of any body else doing it. You just said that Minato created it,"It's an original Space-Time ninjutsu that Minato developed himself." But in fact Tobirama was doing it way before Minato was born. Also the only other person to use Space-time ninjutsu is Tobi. He's starting to sound more and more like an Uzumaki to me. And ask yourself why does Tobi's sealing tech looks exactly like Kushina Uzumaki's & knew the date of the seal at its weakest, unless he knew about the sealing tech. himself, & undoing the seal that is supposed to be a top level seal only Uzumaki's have knowledge of. Lastly Kabuto suggested to Madara that Tobi might not be going with the plan of Tsukuyomi. Hes motives isn't clear but his actions are.

[BuNKiTZ]

Have you heard of any body else doing it. You just said that Minato created it,"It's an original Space-Time ninjutsu that Minato developed himself." But in fact Tobirama was doing it way before Minato was born. Also the only other person to use Space-time ninjutsu is Tobi. He's starting to sound more and more like an Uzumaki to me. And ask yourself why does Tobi's sealing tech looks exactly like Kushina Uzumaki's & knew the date of the seal at its weakest, unless he knew about the sealing tech. himself, & undoing the seal that is supposed to be a top level seal only Uzumaki's have knowledge of. Lastly Kabuto suggested to Madara that Tobi might not be going with the plan of Tsukuyomi. Hes motives isn't clear but his actions are.

When was it stated that Tobirama created it?? You're still not giving me your source for this. Okay, let's say that Tobi is an Uzumaki, I just want to ask, what's the connection between being an Uzumaki and Space-Time Ninjutsu??

[zArseniic]

When was it stated that Minato created the space-time tech. the tech that Minato created was body flicker which is a form of Space-Time tech. being better at it doenst make you the creator of it. If that was the case then Tobi would have been the creator. Only 4 people in the series can do Space-Time ninjutsu Minato,Tobimara, Tobi, and Hanzo and they all seem to resemble traits of both Uzumaki and Senju. We know that Uzunaki's have been scattered throughout the nation so Hanzo being an Uzumaki decent may be plausible. It also fit's with Tobi knowing Nagato bec. Hanzo was the ring leader of the instigated war which lead to Nagato's eyes awakening. All of these ninja's have longevity, huge chakra, and strong sealing tech. all of which points to Uzumaki clan and Senju clan

[BuNKiTZ]

When was it stated that Minato created the space-time tech. the tech that Minato created was body flicker which is a form of Space-Time tech. being better at it doenst make you the creator of it. If that was the case then Tobi would have been the creator. Only 4 people in the series can do Space-Time ninjutsu Minato,Tobimara, Tobi, and Hanzo and they all seem to resemble traits of both Uzumaki and Senju. We know that Uzunaki's have been scattered throughout the nation so Hanzo being an Uzumaki decent may be plausible. It also fit's with Tobi knowing Nagato bec. Hanzo was the ring leader of the instigated war which lead to Nagato's eyes awakening. All of these ninja's have longevity, huge chakra, and strong sealing tech. all of which points to Uzumaki clan and Senju clan

What?? o_O Dude, I said Minato made the HIRAISHIN NO JUTSU. Not Space-Time Ninjutsu. And you're still not giving a source when it was stated that "Niidaime created Hiraishin no Jutsu"

[zArseniic]

The Hiraishin no Jutsu is body flicker attached to a kunia. Minato also passed the technique on to his special guards, Genma Shiranui, Raidō Namiashi and another shinobi, however all three are needed to perform the technique. To do so, they form a circle with one another by performing the seal of confrontation with each other with their thumbs, middle and index fingers touching. This allows them to transport anything within the confines of the ring. As they are now the guards of the Fifth Hokage, Tsunade has been marked with the technique formula. Chakra elements can also be passed down to people outside of the clan, such as Yamato going through Orochimaru's DNA re-modification to acquire the Wood Release technique. However, Yamato's skill in using it is not nearly as powerful as the original practitioner, Hashirama Senju.

Although kekkei genkai are usually genetically shared within a specific clan, sometimes it is unique to one person alone, and that even family relatives do not share it, such as the Wood Release and Shikotsumyaku. Yet other kekkei genkai seem to appear in individuals with no known relation, such as the Lava Release, which has appeared in ninja from Kirigakure, Iwagakure, and Kumogakure, while Magnet Release, which has appeared in ninja from both Kumogakure and Sunagakure.

There is an advanced variant of kekkei genkai known as kekkei tōta.

[BuNKiTZ]

Funny how far we've gone from the original post's theories and all that. Even funnier is how you still haven't answered my questions and then say something completely different. Well, whatever helps you sleep at night

[ibblows]

I think the sage of 6 paths was an uzumaki.

I think that would explain a lot.

Naruto that would explain why the whirlpool had close ties with the leaf if they were run by uzumakis... they would have blood ties to the 2 main clans of konoha.

It wouldnt break story and fits his development.

[Copperstone]

I think the sage of 6 paths was an uzumaki.

I think that would explain a lot.

Naruto that would explain why the whirlpool had close ties with the leaf if they were run by uzumakis... they would have blood ties to the 2 main clans of konoha.

It wouldnt break story and fits his development.

I don't understand. I thought all these clans were formed many, many years after the Rikudou Sennin died?! Rikudou's two sons/pupils were given the eys/body.
The DESCENDANTS of the elder and younger brother with the maximum traits of the original brothers turned out to be the Uchiha and Senju clans. The clans were definitely formed much later. In the same sense the Uzumaki clan never existed all these years, for you to be saying, "The sage of the six paths is an Uzumaki". That doesn't make sense. Obviously, all these clans are inter-related and the Uzumakis are just distant relatives of the Senju clan. The Uzumaki could have some traits of the Sage, but the Sage obviously has traits of the Uzumaki... He's everyone's "father" (yes, a Full Metal Alchemist reference)!

[Zau]

There are several points you're wrong about, Zarseniic.

Hiraishin is NOT body flicker attached to a Kunai. The Shunshin (Body Flicker) technique is just very fast physical movement. Hiraishin (Flying Thunder God) is teleportation-going from one place to another without physically moving through the space between the two points.

We know Tobirama was skilled in Space-Time Ninjutsu; but Hiraishin is just one of many space-time ninjutsu, and Minato was the one who created Hiraishin-which is, like I said, just one of many Space-Time Ninjutsu. Tobi, Tobirama, Minato, Kakashi, anyone who uses summonings...they all use Space-Time Ninjutsu. We have no idea what kind of Space-Time Ninjutsu Tobirama used; we don't know if he was teleporting himself, if he was teleporting other people, teleporting jutsu...we just don't know. That's like saying that because the Raikage are all skilled in Raiton, they invented Chidori.

The chains that Tobi is currently using to restrain the Bijuu are not of his creation. They're stemming from the Statue of the Outer Path, meaning that Tobi's version isn't an Uzumaki thing, it's a Rinnegan thing; Kushina's chains look similar, yes, but are different. It just so happens that chains are fairly useful for holding something still, so probably get used as seals alot. If you remember back to Motoi's flashbacks, the villagers of Kumogakure also used chains to restrain the 8-Tails.

Yes, Tobi knows a lot of things-if he's as old as the few glimpses we've seen of him would tell us, that makes sense. There are several year long gaps during which we can't account for Tobi's actions. Who knows what he learned in those decades?

As for him being able to undo complicated seals...Orochimaru was able to interfere quite heavily with Naruto's seal, which has been stated several times to be quite powerful. Jiraiya was strong enough in sealing to be able to undo Orochimaru's seal that was interfering with Naruto's seal, and was also strong enough to lessen Naruto's seal (resulting in Naruto going 4tails for the first time and giving Jiraiya that scar), and was ALSO strong enough to create tags that could be used to suppress Naruto's seal-and Jiraiya was not an Uzumaki.

Just because the Uzumaki are good at Fuuinjutsu does not mean they're the only ones who are good at Fuuinjutsu.

Last point about Tobi-being an Uzumaki is not required to have large chakra, nor is it required to have transplanted eyes. Case in point; the entire Uchiha clan. Which would make far more sense for Tobi to be a part of, I might add, since he clearly identifies more with the Uchiha than he does the Senju. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's said once or twice that he hates the Senju.

As for you saying that only Senju can use Senjutsu, that is also incorrect. Jiraiya was not a Senju, and he is one of the only two confirmed human users of Senjutsu we know about. And if we don't count just human users, then we also have the Frogs-who, I think it's fairly safe to say, are likely not Senju.

Your logic for Flying Thunder God being Senjutsu is also flawed. "It uses a lot of chakra...Sages need a lot of chakra...it must be a sage technique!". If that logic works, we might as well say that the Raikage is a Sage too. Kisame too, must obviously be a sage, since he has lots of chakra.

Hashirama was never declared to be a Sage. That is completely inaccurate. He was one of the most powerful ninja of his time, and was able to match Madara, who at the time, had Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan AND Kyuubi at his command...but he was never stated to be a Sage. And I'm not sure what you mean by him being declared immortal...he died young enough for his little brother to become Hokage, after all. Orochimaru resurrected his spirit, meaning he was definitely dead.


The last point I'm going to mention is what you said about how you watch both the Manga and Anime because they both have to follow the storyline...no they don't. The anime has filler arcs, which are not Naruto canon. If something happens in a filler, it didn't really happen. For instance, that nonsense about a 0-Tailed beast...that didn't happen. Kishimoto doesn't write the filler arcs, so things that happen in those cannot be used in discussions about the Manga.

[BuNKiTZ]

There are several points you're wrong about, Zarseniic.

Hiraishin is NOT body flicker attached to a Kunai. The Shunshin (Body Flicker) technique is just very fast physical movement. Hiraishin (Flying Thunder God) is teleportation-going from one place to another without physically moving through the space between the two points.

We know Tobirama was skilled in Space-Time Ninjutsu; but Hiraishin is just one of many space-time ninjutsu, and Minato was the one who created Hiraishin-which is, like I said, just one of many Space-Time Ninjutsu. Tobi, Tobirama, Minato, Kakashi, anyone who uses summonings...they all use Space-Time Ninjutsu. We have no idea what kind of Space-Time Ninjutsu Tobirama used; we don't know if he was teleporting himself, if he was teleporting other people, teleporting jutsu...we just don't know. That's like saying that because the Raikage are all skilled in Raiton, they invented Chidori.

The chains that Tobi is currently using to restrain the Bijuu are not of his creation. They're stemming from the Statue of the Outer Path, meaning that Tobi's version isn't an Uzumaki thing, it's a Rinnegan thing; Kushina's chains look similar, yes, but are different. It just so happens that chains are fairly useful for holding something still, so probably get used as seals alot. If you remember back to Motoi's flashbacks, the villagers of Kumogakure also used chains to restrain the 8-Tails.

Yes, Tobi knows a lot of things-if he's as old as the few glimpses we've seen of him would tell us, that makes sense. There are several year long gaps during which we can't account for Tobi's actions. Who knows what he learned in those decades?

As for him being able to undo complicated seals...Orochimaru was able to interfere quite heavily with Naruto's seal, which has been stated several times to be quite powerful. Jiraiya was strong enough in sealing to be able to undo Orochimaru's seal that was interfering with Naruto's seal, and was also strong enough to lessen Naruto's seal (resulting in Naruto going 4tails for the first time and giving Jiraiya that scar), and was ALSO strong enough to create tags that could be used to suppress Naruto's seal-and Jiraiya was not an Uzumaki.

Just because the Uzumaki are good at Fuuinjutsu does not mean they're the only ones who are good at Fuuinjutsu.

Last point about Tobi-being an Uzumaki is not required to have large chakra, nor is it required to have transplanted eyes. Case in point; the entire Uchiha clan. Which would make far more sense for Tobi to be a part of, I might add, since he clearly identifies more with the Uchiha than he does the Senju. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's said once or twice that he hates the Senju.

As for you saying that only Senju can use Senjutsu, that is also incorrect. Jiraiya was not a Senju, and he is one of the only two confirmed human users of Senjutsu we know about. And if we don't count just human users, then we also have the Frogs-who, I think it's fairly safe to say, are likely not Senju.

Your logic for Flying Thunder God being Senjutsu is also flawed. "It uses a lot of chakra...Sages need a lot of chakra...it must be a sage technique!". If that logic works, we might as well say that the Raikage is a Sage too. Kisame too, must obviously be a sage, since he has lots of chakra.

Hashirama was never declared to be a Sage. That is completely inaccurate. He was one of the most powerful ninja of his time, and was able to match Madara, who at the time, had Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan AND Kyuubi at his command...but he was never stated to be a Sage. And I'm not sure what you mean by him being declared immortal...he died young enough for his little brother to become Hokage, after all. Orochimaru resurrected his spirit, meaning he was definitely dead.


The last point I'm going to mention is what you said about how you watch both the Manga and Anime because they both have to follow the storyline...no they don't. The anime has filler arcs, which are not Naruto canon. If something happens in a filler, it didn't really happen. For instance, that nonsense about a 0-Tailed beast...that didn't happen. Kishimoto doesn't write the filler arcs, so things that happen in those cannot be used in discussions about the Manga.

Thank you. You, sir, clearly did your research. Now zArseniic, I didn't really do my research, I just brought up what I remembered, you know stock knowledge and all that. But you either did not make your research, or researched on some retarded wikia. So YOU do your research, before saying anything else. And try to actually answer questions and not start talking about something else. Now go reread Zau's entire post cause it's quite informative, and it's really going to help you.

[hyper_megaman]

More importantly, Minato's three guard squad members (Genma, Raido, and another guy) also know the Flying Thunder God Technique, which they use to send the Mizukage to the battlefield in one of the recent chapters, however it takes all three of them to use it. It's not so different from a summoning or reverse summoning technique.

"Sen-Jutsu" means "Sage Techniques", while "Senju" means "thousand fists".


So far, the only living Senju heirs we know of are Tsunade and Naruto, however there may be several others, as it's known that the Senju clan became dispersed through several different bloodlines via marriage (unlike the Uchiha and Hyuuga clans which preserved their bloodlines).

There's absolutely nothing known about the Namikaze family line, and it's likely that the clan no longer exists, so Minato was probably the last surviving member. Naruto was probably given the Uzumaki surname to cover up his connection to Minato. They may well have been an offshoot line of the Senju clan.


Edit: Here's something I made a while back. It's a chart of known descendants of the Sage of the Six Paths, assuming that the Hyuuga clan is an offshoot (based on theories that the Sharingan evolved from the Byakugan).

good graph

Why not put the byakugan above the sharingan? with current rumours in the naruto world, it's quite possible it's the direct ancestor to the sharingan from the rinnegan

also, there's no mention of the senju or the uzumaki being the older clan, so i think it'd be better to put them as parallel descendants for now instead of the senju being the ancestor to the uzumaki

side question that's not entirely related - why is the uzumaki symbol a spiral? it looks like uchiha ancestor's eyes to me

let's discuss this guys, it's more important than whatever zarseniic is consistently struggling to form as we speak

---------- Post added at 05:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 AM ----------

actually, if you analyse their clan symbols, it's also a possibility that the senju descended from the uzumaki instead

the uzumaki have a much simpler/abstract symbol, it's possible some time in history some of the uzumaki branched off and formed the senju, making minor alterations to the clan symbol to show a connection yet difference