Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (10/13/14 - 10/19/14).
Forum News: The nomination phase of the Community Awards 2014 is live! Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 600 by BadKarma
In pretty much everything that involves fighting there's always the topic of who is strongest, and this usually leads to a 'guys in this series can beat those guys from another series'. While these topics often get out of hand, I think if you want to argue about who is strongest of course the next logical thing ot ask is who is strongest across different series. Some guidelines to make the comparison manageable:
1. We'll assume the two series in question both live in the same planet and have some extended fight between the two universes, so you can't count on a one time trick to win.
2. No double KO methods that affects the entire world will be used relative to the character involved. That means you can't wish for Alluka to destroy the opposing world (and then probably lose yours when someone has to fulfill the pesterings). Goku can't destroy the planet because he can't survive in outer space. It'd be okay for Freeza to destroy the planet, though, since he can survive in outer space so this isn't a double KO situation for him (we'll assume the rest of the non spacefaring Dragonball guys will stop one of their own guys from trying this unless they're somehow losing).
3. Any broad immunity/pierce immunity effects are equivalent. So One Piece guys can hurt guys in HXH and vice versa instead of getting in a fight where neither side can even hurt each other. If someone is completely immune to damage in his universe, he still enjoys that ability unless the corresponding series has a way to pierce through similar immunity.
4. You can only include characters who have been depicted to have fighting ability in some way. So for example currently you cannot use anybody from the Zodiac from HXH, nor can you use Zeno's grandpa.
5. We'll assume Meryem can consume any universe's equivalent of 'life energy' but his pride means he won't be using this ability (he was shocked he ate the Royals, after all). Otherwise Meryem alone can beat almost any universe if he manage to even kill just a few guys.
Although the characters in Dragonball are said to be able to destroy a planet with ease, various measures from the series indicates their physical attribute is not unfathomable. The biggest thing going for the Dragonball world is that just about everyone is capable of flight and long range attack, and only 3 characters from HXH can fight and fly at the same time (Meryem, Pufu, and Yupi). It really shouldn't be close but Dragonball characters have a history of inexplicably ignoring their flight advantage. Since human-like characters in Dragonball are not immune to poison/disease, the HXH characters might get lucky. Still, eventually someone from the Dragonball side will probably figure out that he can just bomb away from the air, and there are plenty of guys from Dragonball side who can survive in outer space that can destroy the planet if things somehow get really bad.
One Piece will have the upper hand until the guys in HXH figure out that Seastone tipped weapons will absolutely destroy most OP characters, since most OP characters purposely get into position where their vital body parts can be cut off, so combine with Seastone tipped weapons that's instant death. There are a few guys who aren't dependent on such powers but they're too few to matter.
Morel can defeat anyone from Bleach by telling them, "You lost because you were stupid." and the guy would keel over after realizing that was a true statement. So far as universes go, Bleach has some of the more broken special abilities that are only balanced because the user of that special ability is downright moronic. Honestly characters like Aizen compare favorably even against characters from Dragonball, but the power of stupidity is infinite.
Naruto borrows heavily from HXH, and this is a classic example of talent versus hardwork. While HXH's characters are generally more creative, Naruto makes up by having way more characters of significance. Each character of significance in HXH will have to fight multiple Naruto characters at once since although Togashi gave HXH characters talent, but his laziness means they're few in numbers (compared to Naruto). I think the main characters in Naruto will get killed very quickly since those guys favor 1 on 1 and they're not a good match against an equivalently powerful character from HXH (say, Meryem, Netero, etc). However, I think Naruto will eventually prevail since they've a swarm of 'guys who are almost as powerful as the main guy' especially if you include all the guys that came from the dead. Netero should be quite capable of beating a Kage-class character from Naruto 1 on 1, but if it's 1 on 3, he'd be dead.
Feel free to add more universes or expand on the existing ones.
Last edited by Phantron; October 30, 2011 at 01:13 AM.
Currently checking popular fighting manga in MH.....
Toriko - Not Sure
HSDK - Absolutely Not
D. Gray Man - Not Sure Either
Negima - Passed
Air Gear - Not
Fairy Tail - Passed
Most main character of Negima! seem to have both talent, hardworking attitude, and experience in war. Making them having advantage over HXH guys because of their growth and their great range of Ki technique and firepower spells in their arsenal. Furthermore, some of them can also fly. If Negima! and HXH fight in 1-on-1 duel, HXH will stand a chance. Unfortunately, if they start a war I'm sure people from Negima! will just start throwing their artillery spells from afar. Not sure if Hunter below Gon or Killua will survive much chance if that were to happen. Broken characters introduced so far in Negima! are Eva, Rakan, and Nagi. Neither of them seem to be an idiot. By the way, if Negi fight with Killua it'll be amazing.
Characters from Fairy Tail using magic as their firepower and their abilities are very balanced. Just like Negima!, but few of them can fly. The main characters is following the principles that if we work hard we'll achieve anything, thus making people like Royal Guards and Meryem a broken characters for them. Few characters from Fairy Tail is using strategy or trick during fights, making them very vulnerable to Hunter like Hysoka, Killua, Illumi, or Morel.
Actually I think Netero could beat five Kages at once. Though if Danzo is included it
will be a bit more troublesome since Danzo is invincible for 10 minutes and can
brainwash Netero with Shisui's eye. Though the four other Kage would need distract
Netero long enough for Danzo to get the jump on Netero. Otherwise Netero wins.
Main problem with HxH is that while there is a lot of feats there's also a lot of hype.
For instance I don't think we've really seen what kind of damage Illumi can do.
The Zolydck family alone is serious business.
Netero's move isn't effective against multiple targets at once. In the fight against Meryem it's said that Netero's statue can't change direction so if you got 3 or 5 Kage-class guys, they'd just surround Netero in a circle. He can easily repel whoever he's attacking but the guys behind him would be able to get close to him, and once in melee range Netero loses his advantage.
The problem with HXH is that very few characters actually are shown with significant fighting ability so they're at a huge disadvantage against any series that has a massive cast of characters. In Naruto when you fight against someone that has a special eye power the strategy is to use many against one (one guy gets affected, use another guy to restore) but this strategy isn't viable for HXH since they've very few characters compared to Naruto.
Additionally, HXH respects the fact that fighting against multiple characters gives the side with many a significant advantage, while most series do not honor that. Since HXH is probably always going to be the side of 1 versus many, this is pretty bad. For example, in the fight against Yupi, it looks like Potclean will hit about 400K on the counter. We know Yupi's estimated to have 700K AP, so presumably he used up 300K from just fighting. Now remember Yupi said all these guys are only 1/10 as strong as him. That means, even without Potclean, he'd have to use almost half of his total AP to defeat the 4 guys he's up against. Now in the world of HXH where you have very few elites to begin with this is no big deal, but against some series you'd literally be fighting 10 or 20 guys continously. Netero's AP can't possibly last enough to take out 5 Kage-class characters either if you assume a Kage-class character is comparable to him in most aspects minus the skill.
Last edited by Phantron; October 30, 2011 at 01:22 PM.
I don't think it's going to take that long for Netero to smack all the Kages with his statue. He did after all hit Meryuem who is hella fast.
He just wasn't able to do enough damage. I don't think the Kages could tank a statue slap. Danzo maybe due to Izanagi. But only for ten minutes. Netero just gets rid of the other 4. Of course it depends on which Kages. First Hokage having all the tailed beasts would perhaps
be somewhat of a challenge. Though that's really just giving the benefit of the doubt.
Though as far as HxH verse vs Naruto verse.
Meryuem and Royal Guards annihilate it.
Netero is supposed to be the peak of human limitation, except it's scaled back by 50% due to his old age (he acknowledges this). There's no reason to assume a Kage-class character in Naruto isn't at least equivalent if not higher than that assuming that a 'human' in both series are equivalent.
Netero's attack requires a line of sight. If he doesn't know where his enemy is, it doesn't matter how fast the statue attack is. Meryem says the statue can only hit in a straight line, so if the statue is currently facing say, north, there's no way it can hit someone who is south of Netero. Netero will have to turn around and reuse the technique to hit someone on the opposite side where the statue is facing. Now, in a 1 on 1 you can assume he can simply turn around fast enough to match anyone's speed, but if we're talking about a 1 on 3 against guys who have comparable if not higher physical abilities, some of those guys will always be behind him unless Netero is behind a wall or something similar. Both Pitou and Meryem can easily get to near melee range against Netero but they're repelled by Netero's attack. But you can't repel someone who is behind you since Netero's attack cannot hit someone behind him.
While the Royals will certainly have a huge advantage (their base ability is far beyond human), Naruto has a lot of elemental attacks which we know can hurt anyone in HXH (no reason to assume anyone except the Zs are immune to lightning/poison, for example). Again you're really looking at the sheer number of powerful characters in Naruto. Just counting characters with a Kage title that has demonstrated some fighting ability, I get:
Fire - 5
Lightning - 2
Earth - 2
Water - 2
Wind - 2
That's 13 characters here and the Kage-class characters aren't even the strongest characters in Naruto. That leaves you 3 Kage-class character per Royal + Netero, and you can gather at least 10 characters who are potentially more powerful than a Kage-class character (heroes, major villians) for just Meryem.
Remember that Yupi used nearly half of his power for the 10 minute battle against 4 guys who are 1/10th of his power. Yes some of that is wasted while he's experimenting new techniques, but even the Royals don't have infinite stamina. While the HXH characters seem to be far stronger on a 1 on 1 basis, I think they'll die from exhausation. If the Zodiac's powers are revealed, this could potentially add some badly needed manpower to turn things around, but until that happens, there just aren't a lot of HXH characters to work with.
Note that this doesn't apply to One Piece since it's clear that in OP, one very strong guy can take out an arbitarily large number of weak guys, so if the top guys are roughly equal between OP and HXH, then you'd expect Meryem to simply use his aura and 500 to 5 million random OP no name guys fall over since they already do that right now. Naruto is really unique in that it has a massive amount of characters who are 'almost as strong as the major characters'.
Last edited by Phantron; October 30, 2011 at 06:41 PM.
Well maybe. I dunno. From what most I heard on Naruto forums mind you is that Netero >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kages
But really this would take way too much energy I don't care to expend on actually finding out which is stronger. Why?
Because it all depends on speed and there are so few examples of actual speed calculation in Naruto. Saying something
like "he's so fast that even the sharingan can't see him" tells me zilch. Maybe once I get the speed figured out I'll have more through answer.
Well thinking about it this way. Killua is lightning speed.
See this thread http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=211061
Raikage is most likely the same. So as far as speed goes. Killua and Raikage are likely the same.
Which would make sense since both of them are all about lightning. From the same thread
it can be seen that Uvogin and Cheetu are faster than lightning speed. Keep in mind this
is the speed of the actual lightning bolt and not the speed of the light you see which
is obviously the speed of light. The eletricity itself is much slower. Though still incredibly quick.
Minato is likely the fastest character in Naruto. But he's probably only a tad bit better than Raikage.
I think it was said before that Cheetu was the fastest of the Chimera Ants but I don't know if that
includes Meryuem before the rose bomb. But Cheetu alone would speed blitz Minato lickety split.
I guess it would be figuring out where Netero compares to someone like Cheetu but from the
point that Netero was actually able to hit Meryuem who is likely comparable to Cheetu if not better
than I would say Netero would simply be too fast for the Kages.
Last edited by mrsticky005; October 30, 2011 at 09:12 PM.
Well there's not much point to try to compare speed of one series to another but I think you can say that both Naruto and HXH features human beings who are equivalent of each other, so you can assume human beings in both series have similar physical peaks.
Cheetu is only something like 200 mph. They actually said how fast he was when Knuckles was trying to ambush him and it's not anywhere close to the speed of sound. Killua's lightning speed refers to his reflexes. If he really is as fast as the speed of light he'd be able to get to where Gon is immediately when he was fighting Pitou.
For the most part the human characters in HXH don't have overwhelming physical attributes, be it strength, speed, or durability. Even the Ants that have by far the greatest physical attributes for HXH aren't insurmountable relative to HXH. We see that Yupi indeed does get tired from fighting 4 guys in a row even if it isn't apparent (used nearly half of his AP). Not to mention Naruto has easily accessible teleportation like powers even if their speed is inferior. In fact, teleportation would really mess up Netero's ability since he has to keep his enemy away from meleeing him.
HXH characters tend to have low (relative to most manga) physical power, even for the villians, but make that up by being clever. However being clever isn't going to help very much if you're jumped by 3 or 5 guys at once. If two sides fight 1 on 1, I'd say Meryem would easily wipe the floor with Naruto characters even if he has to fight 100 times in a row, but there's a huge difference between 1 on 1 fight 100 times, or 1 versus 100.
I can see in a war between HXH and Naruto, it would look pretty similar to the current Naruto arc. People will be like, "Meryem? Yeah 10 Kage-class guys and 50 guys who are as powerful as Kakashi died, but finally we wore him down after a 10 day battle." For every powerful HXH character, there seems to be at least 5 Naruto counterparts if you include all the dead guys.
---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 PM ----------
HXH has a pretty significant distinction between speed like going from point A to point B, and speed in combat. If you go from point A to point B, no human can probably beat Cheetu. It's not certain even if Meryem can outrun him on foot.
On the other hand you got Killua who has amazing combat speed such that even a Royal cannot hit him. Yet, when he needs to get to Gon it took a decent time before he got there. You can assume that just because Cheetu has one of the highest top speed, it's still easy for a Royal to hit him in combat unless Cheetu is just running as far away as possible.
Naruto characters don't seem to have a high speed in terms of getting from point A to point B really fast, but since everyone and their brother can teleport in Naruto, this means their combat speed has to be incredibly high as well just due to teleporting. Neither series consider the ability to traverse large distances to be important in combat, and although I think HXH characters ought to have an edge there physically, the wide availability of teleport nijitsus in Naruto means they're at best even. Novu's ability is considered very valuable in HXH, but if confined to a short distance, it's not even necessarily any better than what any nijia learned in school.
By lightning speed I'm not talking about the speed of light. But the actual speed of a lightning bolt which isn't the speed of light.
Point A to B speed doesn't really matter since once the Naruto characters are in range of attack the HxH characters will just dodge/counter.
They're fighting. This isn't a race.
Is it safe to say that HxH will win vs anything with the exception of DBZ? When people like Alluka are around the world of HxH, anything is possible. Good luck killing her too when she's protected by Zoldyecks. Plus, just imagine when she can control those conditions and/or was trained to use it for assassination. Illumi and Alluka seems like a deadly combination. Illumi or any other strong manipulation type will ask the target to make crazy/big wishes to Alluka, and in turn she asks for the hardest/impossible pesterings. Refuse her four times, and the wisher/manipulated person is dead instantly.
Double KO methods cannot be used or most of these hypothetical fights would always end up with both universes destroyed. Note that destroying the planet is not a double KO method for people in DBZ that can survive in outer space, but I'll assume this isn't the method they'd use first (since the non spacefaring DBZ guys probably isn't interested in dying immediately).
Well we know very little about what to expect from Alluka's power but Killua says the price you pay has to be equivalent, so it'd seem wishing for the enemy to all get sick means you'll have to pay a price comparable to all your guys getting sick so it'd yield no advantage.
It'd only be useful in a fight where the tradeoff is not the same for both sides, i.e. versus One Piece getting a bunch of Seastone weapons would absolutely maul most of those guys, yet you're only wishing for materials that is not even very rare in the OP universe so the expected price for that is very low for huge gain.
A new matchup I thought of:
(New) Prince of Tennis
NPoT guys can probably fight off Dragonball level entities with a racket in hand. While it's in theory possible to ambush them while they're without a racket, in NPoT it looks like the more powerful characters ought to be able to materialize a racket and ball out of thin air, and at any rate we know most PoT characters carry tennis equipment with them at all times and can use stuff like sticks or rocks as substitutes and still achieve their world-destroying effects on the court. Just the 2 guys who can see into the future can wipe the floor with HXH characters (and most other universes too).
Remember that butler who wished for 1 Billion in HXH currency? Alluka's pesterings weren't difficult before that wish since the last wish as an upsy-daisy from Killua. The pesterings become impossible/crazy *after* a big wish, not before it.
So assuming that you wish the destruction of whatever opposing universe/people HxH will be up against, you can wish for something simple first, fulfill 3 wishes, then wish for a big one.
What I am not sure about is how her ability resets. Assuming it does reset to easy pesterings after the last 4 have failed, her ability becomes abusable after every next wish.
You can certainly wish for the destruction of the opposing universe, but the next 3 pesterings is most likely going to cause the destruction of your own universe if failed, and they'd almost certainly be conditions that nobody can possibly fulfill.
Alluka's ability is only useful if you're planning on using it once, since after you make a crazy wish you can simply lock Alluka up forever and not worry about the consequences. You can't let it reset because if you wish for something like destruction of the enemy universe, then the next guy who fails the pestering will cause the destruction of your own universe and that'd be it.
Even in the billionaire wish, 67 people died due to failing the pesterings. Since we have no idea how those 67 people are determined, and it seems like Alluka's power can kill anyone of arbitary power, there's no reason why the Z family couldn't have been part of the 67. Unless there are more rules known about how the 'others' are determined, you've to assume if you don't plan on fulfilling the pesterings then the 'others' could easily include say, the entire Hunter's Association. Given this unpredictability, you'd have to assume anyone attempting to use the wish as a weapon has to fulfill the pesterings if at all possible because they can't risk the 'others' part taking out all their key members.
You can use Alluka's wish as a one time miracle weapon against anything, but then you also end up question like why not have Dragonball guys immediately destroy the planet the moment the fight starts and just sacrifice the guys who can't survive in outer space. You'd get into a lot of nonsensical results with most series, given that most series feature some kind of doomsday mechanism with no obvious way to stop it.
---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------
I'm going to assume you'll never know who the 'others' are for failing the conditions, because if you could know this then you can simply figure out who will die and determine if that's worth losing those guys for whatever you're wishing for, and that'll pretty much mean your side has no way of losing unless the enemy is godlike compared to you.
That said Alluka's power will still be very useful in doing things like gathering intelligence or obtaining rare materials. Of course none of us are Togashi so we can't say what the required payment for that, but it'd seem these kind of wish should be manageable if you got the sum total of HXH universe's resources to work with. For example I don't think the HXH universe can defeat Superman, but they can certainly use Alluka's power to wish for Kryptonite, and again since Kyrptonite is a naturally occuring object in the Superman universe, it shouldn't require an impossible to fulfill condtion to obtain. Not sure if that alone is enough, but it'd at least give the HXH guys a chance.