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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
But since you ask I quoted this over on our forum while it seemed eloquent.
---------- Post added February 26, 2013 at 07:23 AM ---------- Previous post was February 25, 2013 at 01:09 AM ----------
Right, she has a strong will to power but it was supressed.Quote:
Well, you're supposed to make the connection. And with Priscilla.Quote:
Some people have said that Yagi re-uses characters in the Claymore-verse but it's more like you're supposed to recognise the parallels between certain characters.
---------- Post added at 08:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 AM ----------
I still want to know where Raki's name comes from.
The 'r' coulf have been an 'r' or an 'l' whilst the first wowel could be 'a', 'o' or 'u' and the final letter in his name could be silent.
My guess is Yagi is giving either a nod to the Polish origins of The Witcher, or to Raki the dog-king of the Danes.
"An earlier account is given in the Chronicon Lethrense V (SMHD, p.48) where Athisl of Sweden made his dog Raki king of the Danes, and this animal also jumped down to join in a fight among other dogs in the hall, and was killed. Athisl had so loved his dog that he had sworn to execute anyone who told him of its death, but finally a clever messenger tricked the king into announcing the death himself. Saxo has made use of this story to express his contempt for the Norwegians." - from Hilda Roderick Ellis Davidson's notes about the dog-king episode in Saxo's The History of the Danes. Will he get killed by jumping into a fight?
Last edited by faintsmile1992; February 26, 2013 at 03:19 AM.
faintsmile1992: I'm a bit confused by your use of the terms "alpha" and "beta" in this context. I've never heard those used non-allegorically to describe humans before. I'd like to know more about what you mean, but we also shouldn't derail the thread. Could you perhaps direct me to some sources?
Basically, alphas have the personality traits women seek in protectors whilst betas have the traits women seek in providers. Raki is therefore a protector and not a provider.
Obviously the words aren't used in 'real' psychological texts, but they reflect evol psych and what people have observed for centuries. Also what women are more likely to find attractive at a given time is affected by ovulation, during which time women become more attracted to alpha traits than usual.
If a girl finds a lad like Raki, he's daddy material because he's an alpha who'd stick around. It's also why girls get crushes on lads with a similar personality like Allen Walker. Though their nonthreatening look could be said to give them a more beta attractiveness as well, its their masculine instincts to protect that are turn on, and not the promise of economic provision lol.
If you want to understand the underlying psychology, this link ought to help. Women don't seek cads as dads, when they sleep with a 'bad boy' they want him to become a Raki or an Allen Walker - protective, masculine and not boring though sure to stick around. There's a reason why girls go for manga males who take part in battles, and not for fictional characters who start their own businesses or something.
Ovulation Leads Women to Perceive Sexy Cads as Good Dads
Kristina M. Durante et al
"Women, of course, ideally want the best parts of both types of men in a romantic partner (Buss & Shackelford, 2008; Fletcher, Simpson, Thomas, & Giles, 1999). Thus, many women seek sexy husbands—men who are attractive, charismatic, and dominant, while also being faithful, reliable, and investing fathers (Li, Bailey, Kenrick, & Linsenmeier, 2002). However, because it is difficult to find and secure such an ideal mate, most women must make a trade-off between pursuing long-term relationships with men who are good dads versus short-term relationships with men who are sexy cads (Gangestad et al., 2007; Gangestad & Simpson, 2000; Li et al., 2002)."
Where possible women go for bravery and kindness but if a woman has to choose then bravery wins out when women are most fertile.
Last edited by faintsmile1992; February 28, 2013 at 03:44 AM.
hm... i find your raki discussion interesting. though i am not a huge raki fan, i do like him because i can identify with him far more. though he has grown some alpha qualities, i believe he is more a mixture of alpha and beta. more precisely, he has beta qualities that he started with as being weaker, depending on another, and being emotional, and gained some alpha qualities or had some to start from clare and isely. learning the sword and fighting are qualities he probably learned from clare and isely, while wanting to protect clare and running off to see "the new girl in town" are probably alpha qualities he had at the beginning.
for me i like the combo of him and the fact that older him still reflects his younger years, i.e. being emotional and still being very affectionate with clare. though obviously he's evolved in his older years too.
Well at the beginning he was a cry baby. Does that mean he has omega qualities as well?
I don't go all that into the categories stuff the gamers talk about in the Manosphere, but the distinction between 'alpha' and 'beta' attractiveness relates as I wrote to a scientific fact that there are different kinds of good genes. Because women want it both ways, there's something very sexy about lads like Raki, Korluk Eihon, Allen Walker etc. That such lads are usually young or look young for their age is more or less a Japan-specific trope, probably related to the mixture of immature insecurity and surging manhood felt by boys entering adulthood making this age group particularly suitable for the trope - surging manhood channeled into defending others is definitely 'alpha', whilst at another level such characters are 'beta', safe, cute and unthreatening. I can however think of older examples such as Kiba from Wolfs Rain, who I got a crush on at once despite it being technically bestiality. (He has a soothing side Tsume doesn't.)
---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------
Its worth considering Raki's age here and the accusation that Clare is a shotacon. At the beginning of the manga when they are introduced, he is obviously a child. By the time later in the series that they're sexually attracted, he's taller (in the Funimation audio commentary to the anime, in which Raki is this same height through the series, it is stated that he is 12 - Laura Bailey and especially Stephanie Young like Raki very much). Of course now Raki is older he's still hot.
I don't know whether I commented on this in the thread, so remember that Raki is the same height throughout the anime unlike the manga. Men don't mind a little boy crying because kids do. But they have contempt for a young man who cries. In the manga when Raki defends Clare he is clearly a man for the first time and before that he was a boy - when facing death fighting Ophelia he did not cry. But in the anime men have already seen a 12yo acting like a crybaby before that point. This is why men make more of the difference between manga Raki and anime Raki. (Of course girls aren't evaluating him in this same way - it doesn't matter so much to girls, we just see him 'man up' for his woman and become a perfect mate to have kids with.)
I'm not speaking for anybody but myself here, but to be honest I don't find anything bad in particular for young men who cry. Of course, I can't say whether some girls prefer that or not, you tell me But I do think, crying is an expression of honesty in the general case, sometimes admirable even, when knowing full well the so-called "expectation of society" they choose to go against it and let out their feelings in the truest form.
I don't know what is attractive and what isn't (it obviously depends on the person's preference) but I certainly wouldn't give a direct comparison of the two or more types of male even subjectively. They are all admirable in their own way (at least for the good-hearted ones anyway.) Though I quite acknowledge the scientific aspect of the topic, I do believe our moral reasoning by the 21st century is evolved enough to counter our genes or society's stereotypes.
Often the society goes double standards against men and women. Whereas girls are encouraged to express their feelings through crying, boys are often mistreated or even bullied if they do so, simply because there's the gender differentiation. No matter of their personality type (alpha, beta, omega or even zeta), boys/men are expected to behave in a certain manner. Although it's the 21 century and our mentality shifted towards a more tolerant view, the society is still rigid when it comes to gender roles. Heck, even colours are assigned accordingly even before we're born (think about baby rooms).
Raki's most attractive trait is that he does not care whether he fits a certain framework. He just acts according to his emotions, feelings, and reasoning...and that takes insane courage. I absolutely admire people who swim upstream.
Speaking of frameworks: I believe that the alpha beta labels should not even be considered when referring to the complexity of the human nature. These behavioural badges are too rigid and simplistic, if you'll ask me.
On the contrary, they're too ill defined and not supposed to be scientific. But the alpha and beta personality traits and their attractiveness to females are nonetheless real.
I, for one, think that such demarcation between the genders and the behaviors expected of them will always remain to a higher or lesser degree.
Not entirely. people do have hardwiring, you know lol. Women are hardwired so to find certain personality traits appealing in men. Personal preferences differ but onnly within reason.
Though I wouldn't directly call expectation a bad thing, being ruled by that expectation is. Whether you are the party that is expecting, or the party that is receiving the expectation, I think this is the more fundamental issue. You may have formed some sort of expectation, but that's only natural as that is probably how humans are conditioned/made. But rather than sticking to your expectation, maybe one could try giving everything else - other than your expectation - a chance. Well, that's something that works for me anyway, of course everyone has different priorities.
Thing is I'm straight (male, just to make sure lol) so it's a bit difficult for me to talk about attractiveness in terms of Raki. But when I talk about my kind of attractive female, (I don't know what of the female kind males are attracted to in your presumed 'hardwiring,') I can safely say I'm totally different from the 'norm' that you might have in mind. I like females who are literally better than me at most or all things I care about, even in the martial arts that I do. Funnily enough, I couldn't care less if they weren't good with kids at all, even though I do intend to start a family of my own. I would also be attracted to females who are more or less clueless about makeup, or never wear dresses or skirts. Although I haven't directly listed anything pertaining personality traits, I think the above two points are enough to imply the kind of traits those females would have. And I pretty much doubt your expectation of a guy would want to be with a female stronger than he is, or better than he is at playing drums or guitar. This surely isn't "within reason," and before you say it, I'm definitely not one-of-a-kind lol. Weird by expectation, maybe, but not unique in tastes :P
As I mentioned before, the alpha beta badges are rather simplistic. Why? Well the answer is simple:
1. most humans present a behavioural mix of the traits specific to alpha, beta, omega
2. some people may act as an alpha at home, as an omega at the office and as a beta when going out with friends or viceversa. This indicates that their behaviour is dictated by social contexts.
3. there is the issue of dynamic behaviour. For example alpha teens may become omega adults later in life or viceversa.
4. subjective attractiveness (the halo effect, herd behaviour, men become even more attractive when they are in a relationship, etc)
5. cultural alpha, beta, omega (an alpha in America might behave differently than an alpha in Japan, for example)
See why I consider the alpha beta labels simplistic?
Last edited by Ancy; August 26, 2013 at 07:02 AM. Reason: added some stuff