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Thread: Can the Elder be beaten?

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BASED Shinigami's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenichi23 View Post
    I think Tanaka would have a chance against a master on Fortuna's level because although Fortuna is an all around master, I think Tanaka has the edge in pure technique. If Fortuna can be defeated by a disciple with a high class technique, then an advanced level expert with several high level techniques (including kozue nukite) could definitely defeat him if he gets an opening. Shinpaku created that opening through combining their strength. I think an expert of Tanaka's level could create his own opening during a prolonged fight, and I don't think Fortuna has any type of sunday punch or kill move that could finish someone of Tanaka's level.

    As far as the Elder is concerned, I think anyone can be beat if the circumstances are right. Someone like One Shadow, who may know a weakness his father has, could exploit that. He's outclassed other super masters like Apachai but not to the point where it was a complete annihilation, and he's had a tough fight against Jenazad. I'd wager he'd have an even tougher one against Kushinada and even more so against Saiga. So, my theory is that no matter how godly he may look in his day to day feats, in a one on one fight, he's only slightly stronger than the best super masters(masters like, Saiga, Kushinada, Jenazad, and possibly Akisame) and therefore, the right opponent could possibly find a way to win.
    We can't make the assumption that the Elder is only "slightly" stronger than the others super masters becuz readers have yet to see the Elders true full power...for all we know he could be twice as strong as them..who knows?..and about Fortuna if your a master class fighter that means your knowledgeable about all the techniques of your martial art so i'm pretty sure he has some type of one shot killing technique we don't know of.
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  2. #17
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    That's why I said its a theory based on what we currently know. According to the Elder's own words he had a tough fight against Jenazad who I think its safe to say is pretty high tier among the One Shadow Nine Fist. Based on nothing at all but my own thoughts I'd rank Kushinada and One Shadow ahead of him. If he had a tough fight against Jenazad then I'd think he'd have a tougher fight against at least Saiga. So when I say only slightly better than the best super masters I basically mean that he wouldn't dominate the fight. My main point was that no one is unbeatable in this manga.

    And as far as Fortuna's rank as master goes, being a master doesn't mean you've mastered everything, it could simply mean he has a master class body(according to the manga) and a certain level of mastery over some techniques. I don't even think he had a style. I think he was just a fan of various different styles and picked certain things up from them as time passed. I've always viewed Fortuna's rank as master as having alot more to do with his age, size, durability and experience than pure skill. It's a lot like in real life(I've experienced this in my own training) when you see a young martial artist with superior technique have trouble with someone of the same rank whose much older. Advantages in speed, power and motor skills due to natural body development has to be accounted for.

    And assuming Fortuna has a kill technique when he didn't show one is the same as me saying Elder's only slightly stronger than the best of the best. If its not been seen yet you can't know that's the case. With Fortuna will never know, because I doubt he'll be back(unless they wanna make him fodder for one of the up and coming disciples). With the Elder, as far as his power level is concerned, it remains to be seen. My main point with Tanaka vs Fortuna I guess, was that the difference in overall power between the highest level expert and the lowest level master shouldn't be great enough for that fight to be a guaranteed win for Fortuna. In a one on one fight, even if Fortuna won the majority of the time, if they fought 10 times, I feel Tanaka would win at least twice.
    Last edited by kenichi23; November 13, 2011 at 05:43 PM.

  3. #18
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenichi23 View Post
    That's why I said its a theory based on what we currently know. According to the Elder's own words he had a tough fight against Jenazad who I think its safe to say is pretty high tier among the One Shadow Nine Fist. Based on nothing at all but my own thoughts I'd rank Kushinada and One Shadow ahead of him. If he had a tough fight against Jenazad then I'd think he'd have a tougher fight against at least Saiga. So when I say only slightly better than the best super masters I basically mean that he wouldn't dominate the fight. My main point was that no one is unbeatable in this manga.

    And as far as Fortuna's rank as master goes, being a master doesn't mean you've mastered everything, it could simply mean he has a master class body(according to the manga) and a certain level of mastery over some techniques. I don't even think he had a style. I think he was just a fan of various different styles and picked certain things up from them as time passed. I've always viewed Fortuna's rank as master as having alot more to do with his age, size, durability and experience than pure skill. It's a lot like in real life(I've experienced this in my own training) when you see a young martial artist with superior technique have trouble with someone of the same rank whose much older. Advantages in speed, power and motor skills due to natural body development has to be accounted for.

    And assuming Fortuna has a kill technique when he didn't show one is the same as me saying Elder's only slightly stronger than the best of the best. If its not been seen yet you can't know that's the case. With Fortuna will never know, because I doubt he'll be back(unless they wanna make him fodder for one of the up and coming disciples). With the Elder, as far as his power level is concerned, it remains to be seen. My main point with Tanaka vs Fortuna I guess, was that the difference in overall power between the highest level expert and the lowest level master shouldn't be great enough for that fight to be a guaranteed win for Fortuna. In a one on one fight, even if Fortuna won the majority of the time, if they fought 10 times, I feel Tanaka would win at least twice.
    I never said Tanaka couldn't win against Fortuna i stated "he would most likely get beaten by him" ,but i agree with you the difference in overall power between the highest level expert and the lowest level master isn't great enough to guarantee Fortuna a victory but it does give Fortuna a slim if not an considerable advantage in a one on one fight with a lower class fighter. The difference in power here is larger than when Kenichi fought Sho for instance and Sho was an far superior opponent compared to Kenichi. If Tanaka fought him ten times he would probably die 10 times unless he has a super wicked technique like Ryuusei seikuken in the bag lol

    I still believe he has some type of killing technique even if he doesn't have a style and just picks up techniques like you said how can he be a Satsujin Ken follower apart of yami and not have knowledge of a technique that enables him to kill?..even the yomi disciples have killing techniques its more than a assumption at this point i consider it implied knowledge based upon what we've seen so far throughout the manga.
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blakreaper View Post
    I never said Tanaka couldn't win against Fortuna i stated "he would most likely get beaten by him" ,but i agree with you the difference in overall power between the highest level expert and the lowest level master isn't great enough to guarantee Fortuna a victory but it does give Fortuna a slim if not an considerable advantage in a one on one fight with a lower class fighter. The difference in power here is larger than when Kenichi fought Sho for instance and Sho was an far superior opponent compared to Kenichi. If Tanaka fought him ten times he would probably die 10 times unless he has a super wicked technique like Ryuusei seikuken in the bag lol

    I still believe he has some type of killing technique even if he doesn't have a style and just picks up techniques like you said how can he be a Satsujin Ken follower apart of yami and not have knowledge of a technique that enables him to kill?..even the yomi disciples have killing techniques its more than a assumption at this point i consider it implied knowledge based upon what we've seen so far throughout the manga.
    Tanaka may not have Ryuuseikuken but he does have Kozue Nukite, one of the elders 108 techniques.

    And I'm sure that Fortuna does have techniques that can kill. Under the right circumstances and in the hands of a master any technique used can become a kill move. I was more referring to something that is solely his own that's a technique purely designed to end a fight. Even Kenichi developed Mubyoshi with his complete training and strengths as a martial artist in mind. I don't think Fortuna is in touch enough with himself as a martial arts to reach those depths. But that's just my opinion of course.

  5. #20
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    @kenichi23 I wish the Elder would teach kenichi Kozue Nukite sometime soon, a technique that allows the user to break through any defense no matter how tough it is would really help out kenichi in a lot of ways his skill and power would skyrocket just like when he learned seikuken or ryuuseikuken.

    And on the matter of Fortuna i understand your point i also don't think he is in touch enough with himself to reach that point. He's really a joke lol
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  6. #21
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Wouldn't fortuna being in fact a master imply he mastered some form of martial art and reached those depths? The manga did not state fortuna was weak, it merely made a point to say fortuna was at the lowest level of master class fighters. When tanaka first becomes a master, he will be where fortuna stood when we last saw him, at master class garbage and he will have to continue growing from there.

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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    ^This is my personal opinion here, but I think the master class, along with, disciple class and the expert class are more power level rankings in Kenichi as opposed to mastery rankings like in real world martial arts. For example, we've had black belts in the manga who wouldn't even be considered disciple class fighters. You'd think that the disciple class would include anyone who studies martial arts that has not reached expert class, but fighters like Tsukuba(black belt level karateka), Koga the kicker, and even Ukita (black belt level judoka) wouldn't be considered disciple class, which is a ranking that only appeared after ragnorok, making it seem like Odin was Kenichi's introduction into disciple class battles. After he came back from his mountain training, Elder said he'd have no problems with delinquent class fighters anymore, but set Ryuuto a part from those he'd fought before, although he never witnessed Hermit's fight w/ Kenichi and may have changed his mind after he saw Hermit fight Berserker. Of course, most of the eight fist have ascended past delinquent and into the disciple class.

    Even people like Aaron Sensei, and the Crab head karate fighter, who are the masters of their dojos, were defeated by the high level disciples of Yomi. They have the techniques but they haven't gone through the hellish training to take those techniques and their bodies to the superhuman level. Now, on the opposite side of that spectrum in regards to Fortuna, he's actually been able to bring his body to the class of master, which I give him credit for. Due to him being such a fan of martial arts and collecting masters(his words) he became a master himself. In my opinion from what he said, I feel that he gained his experience from other masters and learned how to transcend human limitations from these masters and he seemed to pick up some good techniques here and there but he never truly mastered a particular style. It also appears that he became a master much later in life. This still makes him very intelligent though. But while he may be a master in overall power level, he never reached the depths of true technique mastery. For instance he never even took a fighting stance. Now within the master class their are of course those who have mastered there styles in addition to achieving the body of a master, and not just the Ryozanpaku and Yami masters. Middle tier masters (above master level garbage and below super master) such as Christopher Eclair, Li Tenmon, and Kei Retsumin have mastered there styles as well.
    Last edited by kenichi23; November 14, 2011 at 01:41 AM.

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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    I think to many people translate the master, expert and disciple classes into power levels. I believe its far more of a persons state of being.
    1. Disciple class: this is the level when you step into the world of true martial arts. Your still in the development stage and your strength while increasing is normally stable.
    2. Expert class: this is level when you now have a great knowledge of your art but your lacking polish and self control of a master class. Training from your master starts to reach diminishing returns and normally to reach beyond it requires that you find your own style and place. (I a believer that Sakaki only truely reached master level after his duel with hongo in front of yami even though he seemed really strong at that time.) At this level your growth becomes chaotic and control can sometimes be difficult.
    3. Master class: The level when you have found your own style and place in martial arts. You can still get stronger but now its been tempered with experience and normally if you reach this level you are safe from yourself.

    Now the way I see things a guy like tanaka is very strong but the uncertainty within himself is the thing that is holding him back from becoming a master. While a guy like fortuna figured out his place without as large of a journey focusing more on wealth and power, this makes him knowledgeable and strong but he never had the desire of conditions to really elevate his power. As such depending on your journey you take to reach master it can give pretty large variations in your strength when you finally hit that level.
    Last edited by jerithil; November 22, 2011 at 11:07 PM. Reason: grammer

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  10. #24
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member union98's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Nope!!!

    He's essentially been written in this manga to be the strongest person in existence. He's never lost a fight in his (however many) years of fighting, he runs on water, and has never even really looked worried per se. He's mastered every type of martial arts in existence and created his own kind of style...I mean, who could beat him? Maybe if EVERONE in ryuzanpaku, everyone in ragnarok, everyone in one shadow nine fist, Fortuna, me, and Goku, we might stand a chance.
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    I feel like Kenichi is probably at expert level by now. I mean he sparred with Tanaka a while ago and was able to hold his own and since then he's gotten a lot stronger. I know he would have gotten his butt kicked had they been serious but had he not held back his mubyoshi and actually used it when Tanaka landed his blow, Tanaka would have been in pretty bad shape himself. Not to mention the two separate times he's managed to get inside the guard of that weapons master. True, an all but dead Apachai crushed him with one hit but he was still a master. I think that Kenichi might be a prodigy considering how much he's progressed in such a short time. His masters constantly tell him he has no talent just to keep him from getting arrogant. By 20 he'll probably at least be at Fortuna's level, just based on his current pace of progress. He's already surpassed Miu or at the very least completely equal to her and she's been training literally her whole life. Anyway, that was off the topic, but to add to the actual topic, I don't think the Elder can be beaten at this point in any one fight. However, if he were to fight another high class master, he'd need to rest and if caught in that period he could possibly be beaten. That's just my opinion.

    ---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

    Also, Akisame even pointed out when the Elder was fighting Kenichi and Miu with his body split and his eyes closed using only .0002% of his power that he was still, in that state, the strongest being on the planet. I don't think anyone in a single one on one fight would stand a reasonable chance of beating the Elder. The other masters at Ryozanpaku could most likely defend themselves against the Elder but probably not mount much of an offensive against him.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Lectro Volpi's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    For me the Elder is the Equivalent to Whitebeard from One Piece: in a one-on-one he can defeat everyone in the series (Akisame is our source of information about his power and I trust him). Gotta love the "Strongest man in the world" and "The Invincible Superman" titles; I giggle like a teenager cheerleader.

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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Can the elder be beaten I would say yes...Is there anyone that can beat him 1 on 1? I say no maybe just maybe Saiga sine he's his son....But Elder is a Superman he can practically fly....The Demon Fist, Bewitching Fitst and Saiga I believe are the most suitable people to fight close on even basis with the Elder...Eveybody else it would be great practice for their Martial Arts...only Super Class master can hurt the elder but he's SUper SUper Class

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member jimtors's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    I think the Elder was a character made to be unbeaten.. I think, not even aids and cancer can defeat the Old Man... Pow!

  17. #29
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner g0i5y's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    Kenichi is a long way from contesting the Elder.. the Elder doesn't even use 0.01% of his strength on him yet!
    Plus this manga seems to like being quite good in respect to actual martial art knowledge and martial artists know that as one gets older they do not get weaker if they train properly (hence why you see the videos of ancient, skinny masters on Youtube shortening moves and apparently 'cutting corners'.. it's because they have awesome technique and amazing power for certain actions).
    I think that woman in the 9 fists would give him a good match because he is super strong (yes he has great techniques) but she is purely based on technique to overcome others' techniques and power. Plus she is presented as someone who could challenge him because there is a mention of how they never have fought because both of them don't want to risk losing.
    I suspect that the One Shadow will be against him, it would be very apt and dramatic.
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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member jimtors's Avatar
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    Re: Can the Elder be beaten?

    I don't remember the chapter where they were fighting the armed division and the elder was shocked by a dagger thrown on the ground and he can't find the source, i think, whoever threw that dagger can beat the elder.. But still He is Superman so i have my money still on the elder..^__^

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