It is offical - White House says there are no UFO's?

[Charlie]

So the news is out, there no known contacts with extraterrestrial beings by the US government. The White House responds to two petitions in a program run by the Obama administration called 'We the People'; which promised to give an answer if the petitioners were to get 5,000 digital signatures.

Any thoughts on this "ground breaking" news?

[faintsmile1992]

To tell you the truth, I don't doubt that governments would cover up knowledge of UFOs if they had a reason to hide the evidence, but I don't see why UFO pilots would be so secretive around humans in the first place if they're so far ahead of us in technology.

[Charlie]

To tell you the truth, I don't doubt that governments would cover up knowledge of UFOs if they had a reason to hide the evidence, but I don't see why UFO pilots would be so secretive around humans in the first place if they're so far ahead of us in technology.

Good question, perhaps the of race of extraterrestrials assuming they exist, have a need to keep things secret.

[kkck]

I would understand why a race of aliens would keep themselves a secret. The way I see it there would be two scenarios under which they would come. They could have either peaceful pretenses or invade us. If they invade us then it is obvious why they would keep themselves a secret. You would prefer invading unsuspecting victims, it is just good strategy. It gets tricky when there are peaceful pretenses. What would happen in the world if right now aliens made their existence known to us? The way I see it the religious, political and economic consequences of such a thing would inevitably result in more chaos than what can be described with words.

From a religious point of view you would have religious nut jobs (not all religions but several of them if not most) going crazy over this. I can imagine people wanting to worship aliens for one thing. Then there would certainly be the other extreme where they would be seen as emissaries of evil or something of the sort (in case aliens contrasts with fundamentalist views). There could be many possibilities in this regard but entire cities being thrown into chaos is not that unlikely considering everything.

From a political point of view you would have world leaders with vastly different views. On one side you would have the guys who want nothing to do with them regardless of anything. There are people who don't want other races or nationalities to move from the pieces of land they were born at, can you imagine the sheer chaos beings from another planet would cause? Then you would have the ones vouching from integration and whatnot.

Now, on another interesting note what would aliens want with us to being with(under the peaceful alien scenario)? Clearly a race of aliens would have to be several thousand years ahead of us in terms of technology. Natural resources? I don't see it. Would aliens be unable to find elements in other planets and would require specifically this one? Most minerals should be perfectly attainable pretty much anywhere. Oil? I have a hard time believing beings capable of space travel would need oil as an energy source. Nuclear materials? Even if they do use this I kinda have my doubts that such a thing would be so scarce that it can only be found on earth. Not all planets have water but it is not like water cannot be found in other planets either. So if it is not resources, do they want technology? As if we had something of technological nature which would come close to what species thousands of years ahead of us would have. Then we are left with humanitarian purposes. Sharing knowledge and technology? Interesting thought but I don't particularly see it. It could end up causing more trouble than help, in particular there are several ruthless dictators who I would appreciate staying a few decades behind with technology.

[faintsmile1992]

Based on the history of contact between human cultures, and between humans and other species, UFOnauts would either be here to conquer us (why so long?), to trade with us or to engage in purposes for which human knowledge of their existence would be irrelevant to them. The 'peaceful alien scenario' isn't rooted in human history. Its the potentially visited, like Edo Japan, that doesn't want to be known by visitors and not the other way around.

[kkck]

Well, aliens are not human . In any case it is true that if aliens made themselves known to us under peaceful pretenses we would eventually be assimilated into their culture (or at least we would slowly take is aspects of theirs). After all, they would be the ones with more knowledge, technology and experience so we would inevitably take the role of students (of sorts) and learn from them.

[earthforge]

Ah, the US. We have to be reassured that there were no Roswell aliens. XD

We monkeys are so self-centered about other forms of life. We know that tons of organics are dumped into the atmosphere every year by meteorites. Carbon-based or chlorine-based, bacteria is probably the closest thing we share with other worlds.

But when it comes to the process of evolution... How can we even assume that another sentience has language? Or even technology? I think Solaris was the most thought-provoking scifi movie I'd seen because of the lingering notion that the "planet" itself was alive, but it had no sense of memory. Language and communication are often assumed to be signs of an advanced civilization, but what if another civilization communicated entirely differently? What about collective species that might have a centralized mind? That would mean no concept of an individual unit.

I'm really rambling here, I apologize. My point is more that it's very narrow to think that there is another advanced civilization out there that has identical irrationalities to human beings (this doesn't keep me from watching SGA and Trek). It's just so unlikely. It is more likely that there is sentience out there but we just can't recognize it because it is so different.

[faintsmile1992]

But when it comes to the process of evolution... How can we even assume that another sentience has language? Or even technology? I think Solaris was the most thought-provoking scifi movie I'd seen because of the lingering notion that the "planet" itself was alive, but it had no sense of memory. Language and communication are often assumed to be signs of an advanced civilization, but what if another civilization communicated entirely differently? What about collective species that might have a centralized mind? That would mean no concept of an individual unit.

I'm really rambling here, I apologize. My point is more that it's very narrow to think that there is another advanced civilization out there that has identical irrationalities to human beings (this doesn't keep me from watching SGA and Trek). It's just so unlikely. It is more likely that there is sentience out there but we just can't recognize it because it is so different.

What about the Scramblers from Blindsight by Peter Watts?

[Charlie]

From the documents or video's that are available that I've seen from people who've allegedly had 'contact' with another race of beings, there were some commonalities.

Of all the video's from those who've claimed to have had some contact with an extraterrestrial, all the alien's have a common feature. That is, in each of the cases, the 'being' is a humanoid. Meaning they have two arms, two legs and a head.

I recall one video from the past (forgot the name of the video) where one person who claimed to be a witness or worked in something related to the government. He said that when the government scientist's were shocked to find that nearly all the races of beings out there are humanoid in nature. This caused a big shock to them (the scientists) because they were expecting life forms to have evolved differently on other planets like earthforge has mentioned.

If I recall correctly, that person mentioned that the government (U.S.) / military, were particularity frightened of a race of being's that were identical in appearance to that of humans here. I think they were blonde haired, blue eyed folks. Meaning they could blend in to the population and never be noticed.

Now whether this person was telling the truth or not is another matter altogether but it is pretty interesting.

[kkck]

Well, as far as what other species being humanoid I don't think it is that far fetched. I would think it would be extremely unlikely for another specie to be identical to humans though. I think the humanoid scenario makes sense mostly because primates have a few features which allowed for evolution of intelligence. One if the ability to stand up on two feet (or as you would say as normal people) and thumbs. I recall from a class I took that the mere ability to stand up on two feet made a huge difference when it came to the evolution of intelligence and lets face it, without thumbs we could not ever use tools. At least as far as far as developing tools, I would think that at least the ability to use them is requires and what makes the most sense overall are thumbs in that regard (of course arguments could be made so that tentacles and whatnot to work in the same manner but then we have to consider that molluscs never seem to have advanced brains).

I am all for alternate forms of live forms out there, however we do have to consider a few things scientists today do know. Alternate molecular makeups for living creatures have been studied and considered however evidence so far suggests they are unlikely. For the most part things like silicon (an alternative which has been repeatedly suggested) has not shown to be able to do the things it would be expected to do for it to support life.

As for language, I would argue any advanced civilization would have it, what would be out there is whether it is comprehensible to us. I do have my doubts about physic links between species though. I would also question whether a specie with a single centralized mind would be an advanced specie so to speak. Without individuality they would not be more than animals (unless that one centralized mind has an individuality which would be both remarkable and sad).

[faintsmile1992]

If I recall correctly, that person mentioned that the government (U.S.) / military, were particularity frightened of a race of being's that were identical in appearance to that of humans here. I think they were blonde haired, blue eyed folks. Meaning they could blend in to the population and never be noticed.

You're getting confused with WW2, Charlie, because those people are called Aryans.

[earthforge]

(of course arguments could be made so that tentacles and whatnot to work in the same manner but then we have to consider that molluscs never seem to have advanced brains).

Actually octopuses have shown considerable intelligence. It breaks down unfortunately when essentially their optic gland goes off.

I am all for alternate forms of live forms out there, however we do have to consider a few things scientists today do know. Alternate molecular makeups for living creatures have been studied and considered however evidence so far suggests they are unlikely. For the most part things like silicon (an alternative which has been repeatedly suggested) has not shown to be able to do the things it would be expected to do for it to support life.

I am in astrobiology. One of the key tenants is that something that is an extremophile here could be a lifeform somewhere else. This is why we research hyperarid deserts like the Atacama and Antarctica for possible lifeforms on Mars (which could be very likely. Heck, even carbon-based is possible considering that the tests that "disproved" the existence of organics on Mars were faulty.)

This is why the arsenic bacteria is interesting.

As for language, I would argue any advanced civilization would have it, what would be out there is whether it is comprehensible to us. I do have my doubts about physic links between species though. I would also question whether a specie with a single centralized mind would be an advanced specie so to speak. Without individuality they would not be more than animals (unless that one centralized mind has an individuality which would be both remarkable and sad).

Really? I would think the centralized mind would have an identity. Why would that be sad? It's just... different. Like the Krell in Forbidden Planet. Like the Gethenans in Left Hand of Darkness.

(I checked Blindsight, and it bothered me because it completely messed up a possibly interesting story with so much random unrelated crap. Scifi is about a careful and fun examination of the unknown.)

[faintsmile1992]

(I checked Blindsight, and it bothered me because it completely messed up a possibly interesting story with so much random unrelated crap. Scifi is about a careful and fun examination of the unknown.)

How is it 'random unrelated crap'? And sci-fi is a genre defined by the world its set in. The whole point of Blindsight is to explore the relationship of humans to the rest of the natural world, through the nature of the psychopathic non-human hominids called vampires and through that of the Scramblers his crew hunts.

Blindsight is Moby-Dick in space, because Melville's Moby-Dick uses the similar backdrop of a monster hunt at sea to explore the relationships of civilized European Christians to uncivilized non-European pagans and non-human whales, which are identified in Moby-Dick with fish to be hunted, mammals to be studied and reptilian sea monsters to be feared. In Blindsight, the relationships are between humans, the vampires and the Scramblers but the difference between Blindsight and Moby Dick is that the hunt for the Scramblers is mostly a plot device, leaving most of such questions to revolve around the humans and the vampires. And that the Commander, whose role is similar to Ahab's on board the Theseus, is identified right from the start as an outsider and a monstrous animal rather than as a civilised human like Ahab.

[kkck]

Actually octopuses have shown considerable intelligence. It breaks down unfortunately when essentially their optic gland goes off.



I am in astrobiology. One of the key tenants is that something that is an extremophile here could be a lifeform somewhere else. This is why we research hyperarid deserts like the Atacama and Antarctica for possible lifeforms on Mars (which could be very likely. Heck, even carbon-based is possible considering that the tests that "disproved" the existence of organics on Mars were faulty.)

This is why the arsenic bacteria is interesting.



Really? I would think the centralized mind would have an identity. Why would that be sad? It's just... different. Like the Krell in Forbidden Planet. Like the Gethenans in Left Hand of Darkness.

(I checked Blindsight, and it bothered me because it completely messed up a possibly interesting story with so much random unrelated crap. Scifi is about a careful and fun examination of the unknown.)

Octopuses are crafty however I don't think the level of intelligence they have shown is enough to suggest that it is on its way to becoming intelligent so to speak. Not sure how to explain this part....

My post did address the scenario where the individualized mind has an individuality however that would only mean its parts (which in this I assume to be some sort of controlled organisms) would be critters with no intelligence of any sort, only enough to instinctively act according to the main mind. As for the sad part, I just was under the impression it would be sad because it would be a lonely existence of sorts. Even if it commands millions of organisms it would be by all intents and purposes alone.