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Thread: Bleach 474 Discussion

  1. #271
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sollum's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    What will happen - Ichigo will fight Ginjou, Ginjou will escape.

    What I want to happen - this manga to become "Shounen"! Ichigo listening to his emotions and going on rampage against SS. Gathering some allies:
    Vaizards
    Arrancar
    Aizen-sama
    And mopping da floor!

    Alas its not "Shounen" and Ichigo will think it out as a grown man...

  2. #272
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ca12nag3's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollum View Post
    What will happen - Ichigo will fight Ginjou, Ginjou will escape.

    What I want to happen - this manga to become "Shounen"! Ichigo listening to his emotions and going on rampage against SS. Gathering some allies:
    Vaizards
    Arrancar
    Aizen-sama
    And mopping da floor!

    Alas its not "Shounen" and Ichigo will think it out as a grown man...
    haha? what is there not shonen bout it? :P

  3. #273
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollum View Post
    What will happen - Ichigo will fight Ginjou, Ginjou will escape.

    What I want to happen - this manga to become "Shounen"! Ichigo listening to his emotions and going on rampage against SS. Gathering some allies:
    Vaizards
    Arrancar
    Aizen-sama
    And mopping da floor!

    Alas its not "Shounen" and Ichigo will think it out as a grown man...
    I don't see how is attacking people that you know that once had to keep you in check because they couldn't know who you are and what will be your goals in the future, but now that you literally died for them (and came back~), defeated their no.1 enemy, they share bonds and are indebted to you, how is that in any case logical?

    They didn't tell him anything about it. Okay. But it's not like Ichigo will stop believing in them. After they came and saved him, gave him the powers, after he realized the bonds between them.. I mean, he believed in Isshin and didn't ask any question back in Deicide arc. He just believed in him, believed in Isshin's own reasons.

    Yea of course, he'll do exactly what the person that betrayed him, psychologically manipulated him and absorbed his powers only a few minutes ago says...

    If Ichigo goes on a rampage just because this badge thing, he will be much more stupid that any typical shounen hero. And Ichigo was never presented as dumb by Kubo.


    ex oriente lux

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  5. #274
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sollum's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Darjaille View Post
    I don't see how is attacking people that you know that once had to keep you in check because they couldn't know who you are and what will be your goals in the future, but now that you literally died for them (and came back~), defeated their no.1 enemy, they share bonds and are indebted to you, how is that in any case logical?

    They didn't tell him anything about it. Okay. But it's not like Ichigo will stop believing in them. After they came and saved him, gave him the powers, after he realized the bonds between them.. I mean, he believed in Isshin and didn't ask any question back in Deicide arc. He just believed in him, believed in Isshin's own reasons.

    Yea of course, he'll do exactly what the person that betrayed him, psychologically manipulated him and absorbed his powers only a few minutes ago says...

    If Ichigo goes on a rampage just because this badge thing, he will be much more stupid that any typical shounen hero. And Ichigo was never presented as dumb by Kubo.
    Yeah, i agree on the first part. But it was made clear that he was not TRUSTED. Maybe if he was told truth from the beginning, they would have avoided this drama.

    And about saving part... well what can i say, i can't let my pet dog die from illness, can i? Who will protect my house when am not at home?

    I am not saying that Ichigo should align himself with Ginjou. He needs to make army of his own 8-)

    Nah, rampage would be fun! Something new, something cool!

  6. #275
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollum View Post
    Yeah, i agree on the first part. But it was made clear that he was not TRUSTED. Maybe if he was told truth from the beginning, they would have avoided this drama.
    If I were Soul Society, I wouldn't trust him until I was sure I can trust him. That is, I'd start trusting him after he saved the world

    After the SS arc, he was someone that, even though DID save Soul Society (well.. not that much, since Aizen still got Hogyoku, but still), he was someone that was breaking rules, going on rampage etc. They knew that he'd do everything for Rukia. But only Rukia, they couldn't be sure about anything else. They couldn't know what will happen in the future. What if he'd end up turning on Soul Society?

    And then he went to HM and three days (or how many) days after he defeated Aizen. And then he lost his powers

    I just don't think it's bad, trying to protect Soul Society.

    Quote Quote:
    And about saving part... well what can i say, i can't let my pet dog die from illness, can i? Who will protect my house when am not at home?
    They didn't come saying "We'll give you your powers back.. now swear you'll be fighting for Soul Society forever".. Maybe they knew he WILL do it, but no promises.. so it was fair

    Quote Quote:
    I am not saying that Ichigo should align himself with Ginjou. He needs to make army of his own 8-)
    Nah, rampage would be fun! Something new, something cool!
    I agree on this though. I want to see him go find Vizards and HM inhabitants and mop the floor with Soul King rampage mode.
    Of course, first we need to HEAR that Soul King is bad...
    or mop the floor with Hell King or whoever.

    I just don't see logic in fighting SS

    ---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ca12nag3 View Post
    haha? what is there not shonen bout it? :P
    Well I always thought that Ichigo wasn't this stereotype shounen hero in the regard of his... intelligence... in school...
    Since he was said to have higher than average grades and he reads Shakespeare and stuff..


    Somebody may think that accepting that they told him nothing is out of "shounen character", but Ichigo was shown to be mature when needed (Isshin appearance in Deicide chapters for example).


    ex oriente lux

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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Darjaille View Post
    I don't see how is attacking people that you know that once had to keep you in check because they couldn't know who you are and what will be your goals in the future, but now that you literally died for them (and came back~), defeated their no.1 enemy, they share bonds and are indebted to you, how is that in any case logical?

    They didn't tell him anything about it. Okay. But it's not like Ichigo will stop believing in them. After they came and saved him, gave him the powers, after he realized the bonds between them.. I mean, he believed in Isshin and didn't ask any question back in Deicide arc. He just believed in him, believed in Isshin's own reasons.

    Yea of course, he'll do exactly what the person that betrayed him, psychologically manipulated him and absorbed his powers only a few minutes ago says...

    If Ichigo goes on a rampage just because this badge thing, he will be much more stupid that any typical shounen hero. And Ichigo was never presented as dumb by Kubo.
    From the way Ginjou said it, it seemed that the only reason they are actually keeping Ichigo is because they deem him useful, if it so happened that he broke a single rule they would have tried to obliterated him (not that they could anyway lol)

    Im not saying that Ichigo will go on a rampage for such a stupid reason, but the impact behind the words are heavy. The fact that even after what he saved SS from Aizen, they still never mentioned the badge or its uses, meaning even if they established bonds they still kept him at arms length.

    He wont do it for Ginjou, but im pretty sure this will be at the back of his head and he will question Ukitake about it; If Urahara doesnt get there first that is.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    From the way Ginjou said it, it seemed that the only reason they are actually keeping Ichigo is because they deem him useful, if it so happened that he broke a single rule they would have tried to obliterated him (not that they could anyway lol)

    Im not saying that Ichigo will go on a rampage for such a stupid reason, but the impact behind the words are heavy. The fact that even after what he saved SS from Aizen, they still never mentioned the badge or its uses, meaning even if they established bonds they still kept him at arms length.

    He wont do it for Ginjou, but im pretty sure this will be at the back of his head and he will question Ukitake about it; If Urahara doesnt get there first that is.
    That's Ginjou's opinion. He knows nothing about relationships between Ichigo and SS. It's probably his case, I bet he was deemed to be dangerous for whatever he did/wanted to do and was to be executed. Not Ichigo's case.

    He saved SS from Aizen and then lost his powers and all connections to SS..
    I can imagine Rukia saying to Ichigo, farewell scene, "oh Ichigo, you're monitored through the badge, take care, I love you~"

    If you mean the end of SS arc. They knew that he cares about Rukia deeply. But they couldn't be sure he won't change, they couldn't be sure about his true personality. At least Captain Commander couldn't. I bet Byakuya, Kenpachi and Renji knew him good enough


    ex oriente lux

  9. #278
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Darjaille View Post
    That's Ginjou's opinion. He knows nothing about relationships between Ichigo and SS. It's probably his case, I bet he was deemed to be dangerous for whatever he did/wanted to do and was to be executed. Not Ichigo's case.

    He saved SS from Aizen and then lost his powers and all connections to SS..
    I can imagine Rukia saying to Ichigo, farewell scene, "oh Ichigo, you're monitored through the badge, take care, I love you~"

    If you mean the end of SS arc. They knew that he cares about Rukia deeply. But they couldn't be sure he won't change, they couldn't be sure about his true personality. At least Captain Commander couldn't. I bet Byakuya, Kenpachi and Renji knew him good enough
    No, not just in Ginjous POV, the fact that they would actually try and execute you if you dont abide by theyre strict rules is baffling. Like i said, the only reason Ichigo is still not dead is because he was useful to them.

    Im not denying the fact that Ichigo has made a lot of friends in SS, but that doesnt mean they wouldnt turn on him? The ones here i know wouldnt turn on him, but the remaining ones sure could. Its unlikely that they would since Toushiro just said that Ichigo has chaged Yamaji.

    What im saying is that it wouldnt be farfetched for Ichigo to get pissed of if he got the wrong answer to his question, wouldnt be logical for him to turn against SS either :P. I just hope that we get a hell Arc before we ever get to get to the Royal dimension. And in the process Ichigo makes his own Group (i want Nel, Grimmjow and Starrk back) Since non of them were confirmed dead. [but this borderlines into my fangasmness lol]
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post

    What im saying is that it wouldnt be farfetched for Ichigo to get pissed of if he got the wrong answer to his question, wouldnt be logical for him to turn against SS either :P. I just hope that we get a hell Arc before we ever get to get to the Royal dimension. And in the process Ichigo makes his own Group (i want Nel, Grimmjow and Starrk back) Since non of them were confirmed dead. [but this borderlines into my fangasmness lol]
    in bleach fantasy world what happens when a shinigami or a menos level hollow, arrancar is killed.

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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Darjaille View Post
    If I were Soul Society, I wouldn't trust him until I was sure I can trust him. That is, I'd start trusting him after he saved the world
    Nevertheless, you can't expect someone to trust you if you don't trust back. Trust is a delicate thing, it's not something you just develop out of the blue, it's a slow process of events between people.
    Soul Society not *trying* to trust Ichigo will only result in Ichigo not trusting them back, for all we know, it may even have created Ginjou's current rebelish attitude in the first place. Despite of him being a dangerous character deep down.
    That's why I think SS scr**ed up pretty badly here, how do you control someone with awesome power...? Not with force, but with trust, SS did everything wrong if they wanted to control Ichigo.

    Trusting someone means taking risk, Soul Society don't dare to take risk, they can't trust people as an organization, thus no one would ever want to trust them back.
    Holding someone with awesome force and power the way SS does it, will only come back biting them.

    Imho, it would be bad story telling if Ichigo started to trust Soul Society after he finally gets the full story by Urahara (likely, by the way Urahara spoke this chapter), something is being build up. The gap between Soul Society and Ichigo is increasing, if Ichigo does not go banana now, then eventually he will, or this build up would seem pointless.

    Many of us has asked what the point is with the fullbring arc over the time since it started, so far, the point seems to have been revealed to be Ichigo's personal development and to give the reader new perspectives on SS, along with fresh new artworks.
    If nothing big comes out of Ichigo starting to question Soul Society after all the mistrust, then this arc would return to pointless, nothing came out of it... A story is a red line, not a circle afterall, development!

    What really put me on my toes is that the old man Yama finally showed Ichigo a bit of trust, but will it be too late..? I think this will be rather interesting, Soul Society seemingly have got a really big liking to Ichigo, thus trust as well, but Ichigo might not have realized it.

    Soul Societies normal way of not showing trust, being a military society and all and that they did not trust him much in the past, with him not knowing anything about what's truly going on in the world, even his own dad & Urahara keeping big secrets from him, and now Ginjou trolling him, having Tsukishima make a heavy hit to his emotions by loosing his friends... Hell, he made Ichigo cry in the end, he broke him down. The only difference from then and now, is that Ichigo has powers again, which calmed him down for a while...

    But now Ginjou shaken him again, it does not take a lot to push a great awesome and strong tower to fall if the fundamental part of it at ground is weak, Ichigo's emotions are completely unstable at the moment... Thus, it does not take a master manipulator to push Ichigo right now, Ginjou is more than plenty to shake a strong and magnificent tower of power like Ichigo.

    Somehow I got the feeling that Ichigo will rebel as well, however despite of that, Soul Society will go out of character, and try get to him. But Ichigo will be out of reach, possibly charging the king's realm or maybe even hell, for whatever reason, though I'd guess the king's realm would make much more sense.

    Ichigo is a bit of a dark hero, and it seems to increase, Soul Society is not evil, but they're possibly also not his allies, and his dear friends are too weak.
    For all we know, Ichigo might take everything into his own hands, he has "Power" like nothing else, and worst is, he now knows it himself. This means, he might use his powers to find the truth, rather than question the people who has been keeping him secrets all this time...

    Do I smell Aizen and Soul King...? Even if Soul Society still holds a liking to Ichigo, if Ichigo broke into the king's realm with Aizen, god knows what tough situation Soul Society would stand in when finally starting to trust Ichigo.

    I find this extremely interesting, I expect nothing less from Kubo now, even if it doesn't turn out this way, something big is coming

    ---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

    If Ichigo broke Aizen out soon after this, I got the feeling that Aizen would actually want to ally himself with Ichigo. Aizen did show his true nature in the end, he's either the type who would ally himself with Ichigo only to betray him at the far, far end or actually feel some sort of trust to Ichigo by Ichigo trusting him. Either of the two.

    I'm sure no one ever did try to trust Aizen by knowing his dangerous powers, Ichigo will be the first. Ironically, we came from the Fullbring arc with a lot of trust / mistrust concepts, and here we see a possibility of bringing Aizen back without it being a bad story telling, actually, it would be awesome story telling!

    Kubo has shown this before, Urahara pledged his trust to Mayuri Kurotsuchi by making him his Lieutenant despite of Mayuri being a dangerous criminal. Kubo has shown that he uses trust development in his story before, it's not too far fetched if Ichigo went to Aizen and showed him trust, because Ichigo feel he would be the only one understanding him now.
    Aizen might feel the same way, though, shocked by Ichigo showing up like that.

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  13. #281
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    About the entire trust thing. It is not said anywhere why they *monitor* him, after all the same device can be used for different purposes. Ginjo could indeed be kept under watch for reasons of rebellion but perhaps with Ichigo its to keep him safe from harm. We simply do not know the reasons why they do this yet.

    With Urahara and Yuruichi literally watching over the Kurosakis in my point of view it seems like there is something important about Ichigo and his relatives apart from his power. People should focus less on the powercrap and more on the storyline and notice this already.

    As for Ichigo, we are not talking about some random guy, but his father. He trusts his own father. The entire part about him saying about his dad when he got stabbed by the reiatsu sword wasnt about not trusting his dad but about Tsukishima perhaps getting to his dad as well.

    So his trust in his father is unchanged. He still suspects something about his dad but look at what happend. His father was acting suspisious however after that we get Ginjo the one who points at his dad screwing him over. No way he would now trust Ginjo over his own father.

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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by ca12nag3 View Post
    About the entire trust thing. It is not said anywhere why they *monitor* him, after all the same device can be used for different purposes. Ginjo could indeed be kept under watch for reasons of rebellion but perhaps with Ichigo its to keep him safe from harm. We simply do not know the reasons why they do this yet.

    With Urahara and Yuruichi literally watching over the Kurosakis in my point of view it seems like there is something important about Ichigo and his relatives apart from his power. People should focus less on the powercrap and more on the storyline and notice this already.

    As for Ichigo, we are not talking about some random guy, but his father. He trusts his own father. The entire part about him saying about his dad when he got stabbed by the reiatsu sword wasnt about not trusting his dad but about Tsukishima perhaps getting to his dad as well.

    So his trust in his father is unchanged. He still suspects something about his dad but look at what happend. His father was acting suspisious however after that we get Ginjo the one who points at his dad screwing him over. No way he would now trust Ginjo over his own father.
    Even so, his dad is not around, he was told to stay back
    Thing is, Ichigo is so far down emotionally that he probably can't think rationally anymore, he thinks a lot in a negative manner, in a none constructive manner.
    Also he never came to his dad for help, even if he trust his dad, also as I said in an earlier post, it's a bit ironic that all the people who could calm down Ichigo are not there...

    - Rukia
    - Isshin
    - Orihime
    - Chad
    - All his other friends
    - His sisters was never there to begin with.

    Why are all the people who can calm down Ichigo emotionally not there...? For me, not only is the logic about trust, but also the scene is so much set up for Ichigo to go into rage or something similar to that, perhaps even just running away and using his powers to find the truth about everything on his own.

    It's just weird, don't you think? Especially that Isshin and Rukia are knocked out or told to stay behind, no less Chad and Orihime, I mean, it's for me obvious that they're being keeped away from Ichigo by purpose by Kubo, for whatever reason.
    I think the reason is Ichigo will not be himself, possibly going into a rage.

  15. #283
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Kubo it's playing a lot with our thoughts... I could say just a thing, sometime it's up to you on how would you handle the situation... when you're lonely between strangers. Even if you think that they're not here because of some Kubo's purpose ... it's just 'cause Ichigo 's not any more a teenager..
    Code:
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cez View Post
    Spoiler show
    I realize this is pretty subjective matter, but I wanted to express my opinions on the things you bring up.. I'll try to make it short

    Quote Quote:
    Nevertheless, you can't expect someone to trust you if you don't trust back. Trust is a delicate thing, it's not something you just develop out of the blue, it's a slow process of events between people.
    Soul Society not *trying* to trust Ichigo will only result in Ichigo not trusting them back, for all we know, it may even have created Ginjou's current rebelish attitude in the first place. Despite of him being a dangerous character deep down.
    That's why I think SS scr**ed up pretty badly here, how do you control someone with awesome power...? Not with force, but with trust, SS did everything wrong if they wanted to control Ichigo.
    That's trust. That's true. Between two people, who are getting close, or something like that. But I think you can't say that about an organisation (such as Soul Society). It's like saying that Government gets close to the people. Yes, they (should) try to understand and help us people, but still, they are organisation that's not about feelings first. Government maintains laws . <-- Not the most accurate thing, but Government is the first thing that came to my mind.
    Also, the organisation (Soul Society) will start trusting people only after observing them, after they prove themselves. People between each other can afford to first trust somebody and then discover, if you were right.. but I don't think SS can do that so easily.
    I'm writing this looking at it from Captain Commander's POV.

    Quote Quote:
    Imho, it would be bad story telling if Ichigo started to trust Soul Society after he finally gets the full story by Urahara (likely, by the way Urahara spoke this chapter), something is being build up. The gap between Soul Society and Ichigo is increasing, if Ichigo does not go banana now, then eventually he will, or this build up would seem pointless.
    What story from Urahara? We really don't know what is he going to say. I for myself won't be shocked if the Soul King/dimension/whatever is brought up (or I just WANT it to be brought up). What if Urahara says 'Trust your friends from Soul Society, your enemy is somewhere different'?
    I can't see any gap increasing there, I would like Ichigo to realize how much he and they care about each other in this arc. Ikkaku saying that he'd die for Ichigo and that he trusts him and knows Ichigo would die for him too, Byakuya slashing Tsuki not because it's an order, but because he's an Ichigo fan?

    Quote Quote:
    Many of us has asked what the point is with the fullbring arc over the time since it started, so far, the point seems to have been revealed to be Ichigo's personal development and to give the reader new perspectives on SS, along with fresh new artworks.
    If nothing big comes out of Ichigo starting to question Soul Society after all the mistrust, then this arc would return to pointless, nothing came out of it... A story is a red line, not a circle afterall, development!
    Purpose of this arc

    Quote Quote:
    But now Ginjou shaken him again, it does not take a lot to push a great awesome and strong tower to fall if the fundamental part of it at ground is weak, Ichigo's emotions are completely unstable at the moment... Thus, it does not take a master manipulator to push Ichigo right now, Ginjou is more than plenty to shake a strong and magnificent tower of power like Ichigo.
    Again, from reading this chapter, I didn't get any feelings signaling that Ichigo's resolve was shaken. He was pissed that Ginjou is trying to turn him against his friends. That once again, somebody's trying to choose the right words to manipulate him. I saw that he lost the patience of dealing with Ginjou and now, he just wants to kill him and be over with it. I'm sure he'll be asking questions when he meets up with Urahara/Soul Society Captains. But I don't expect him to feel betrayed, pissed, anything. He should care more about why is Rukia in a mysterious coma!

    Damn, I see things completely, but COMPLETLY differently


    ex oriente lux

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  18. #285
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    Re: Bleach 474 Discussion / 475 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by noVaLue View Post
    Kubo it's playing a lot with our thoughts... I could say just a thing, sometime it's up to you on how would you handle the situation... when you're lonely between strangers. Even if you think that they're not here because of some Kubo's purpose ... it's just 'cause Ichigo 's not any more a teenager..
    i agree, hes no longer a teenager. Hes getting close to adulthood. So you expect some form of adult behavior with him. Anyways he has shown that a few times already. Also when he first was confronted with his dad he did say hed wait for him to explain w/e it is. Basically he unconditionally trusts him. There is no way Ginjo can alter that with his badge.

    ---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Darjaille View Post
    Again, from reading this chapter, I didn't get any feelings signaling that Ichigo's resolve was shaken. He was pissed that Ginjou is trying to turn him against his friends. That once again, somebody's trying to choose the right words to manipulate him. I saw that he lost the patience of dealing with Ginjou and now, he just wants to kill him and be over with it. I'm sure he'll be asking questions when he meets up with Urahara/Soul Society Captains. But I don't expect him to feel betrayed, pissed, anything. He should care more about why is Rukia in a mysterious coma!

    Damn, I see things completely, but COMPLETLY differently
    I agree with the caring about Rukia, when he finds out. But i dont see him one-shot Ginjo just like that. It just wouldnt be fitting for a bossfight. I do wonder why Urahara suddenly feels like he has to jump in. After all its not really his fight or is it?
    Ukitake is the one being absent yet Ginjo taints his good rep
    I imagin that Urahara either totally agrees with SS methods or totally disagrees. Will just have to wait and see. I think that Urahara will try to rationalize everything and Ichigo might say dont worry i already understand lol. Basically making Uraharas show not needed

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