Hunter x Hunter Chapter 326 Discussion

[Goral]

(...) If by the end of HxH Togashi gives no explanation of her origin then you can criticize the Ant Arc on this point. However, at the moment, when the manga is barely half way through, bashing it the way you're doing, using weak assumptions, is ridiculous.

In other words I can't criticize a manga until it's finished because you never know, author might try to patch some holes up or give an explanation at the end, is that it? To me it doesn't matter whether some scientists experimented with ants and created such monsters or they've come from space. They way they were introduced and the rate of their growth was just ridiculous. It was poorly written by Togashi (in this case term "asspull" would fit) and this arc made me think that even the most ridiculous thing is possible in HxH. By the time new arc ends, taking into account the rate of growth of the ants another Meruem should appear. And in the first place how come there are no more queens/Meruems coming from the sea? They didn't just appear out of nowhere, either they were created by scientists (in that case they should be able to create more and with their level of bioscience they should also be able to enhance human abilities, if they could increase intelligence of the ants so much then why don't they do the same to themselves?) or came from outer space. I don't see much of an option here. Some "nen-rays" made the ants grow? Do you really think Togashi can come up with a convincing explanation for them?

[Host Samurai]

Seriously, guys. Your nagging is getting ridiculous but I also can understand your way of thinking. We still only got one part of the story so far about the Ants. Togashi might reveal the full story about the Ants in a later stage as the story progress many people seem to forget, that the Ants were introduced alongside with Jairo, who is going to play a significant role in the story. Since we don't know their origin we can speculate on that matter, they could be artificially farmed in a labotary for scientific purposes or used as guinea pigs for the drugs, which was produced in NGL during Jairo's reign. You see Togashi has a lot of room to explain to us about their origin and the fact that many chimera ants survived makes me think that we will see them again.

[Popo]

To me, Togashi broke his own rules with chimera ants arc which I consider to be one of the worst arcs ever in manga history. Nen was never something easy to master ... when he created "creatures" able to master it in 1 week, he broke it. He creates creatures with a "en" of several kilometers when the best nen users were said to be around 50m ... 300m for grandpa zoadyeck was barely acceptable because well, he is a zoaldyeck

I also consider Kurapika powers as not coherent with the rest of the story. Kurapika have easily the strongest really usable abilities. A specialization allowing to use all groups to 100% is IMO pure bullshit ... and it's even more bullshit when it's coming from a rookie. And he doesn't even pay a price for most of his abilities. And to top all that, it's not just 1 or 2 abilities, the guy (girl ?) have 5 different very different & very useful abilities

So far, the only one who is still coherent among mainstream mangas is Oda ... but the "2 devil fruits" bullshit from Blackbeard is borderline. The worst is Fairy Tail for me in which the mangaka clearly doesn't know what he is doing anymore (worst timeskip ever, it's a no contest). In fairy tail, it's the first time that I read a story where the mangaka is so lost with what he created that he decide to reboot everything

I'm not sure that you have the best understanding of the series. The reason why the ants were able to master Nen so quickly was because of Pouf--Spiritual Message allowed him to tell the ants the best ability for them to learn, as well as how to use it. Leol stated that it would only take a day if one was quick enough. And the Chimera Ants learned/adapted at a faster rate than humans. In fact, biologically speaking, the ants actually were a step above humanity in terms of evolution. Their bodies were physically stronger, they learned things quicker, their potential for Nen is higher--they're supposed to be better than man in every regard. The Chimera Ant arc is akin to Akira Toriyama introducing Cell into the storyline while the protagonists are still fighting Piccolo--they're not supposed to have a shot in hell. I'd say that the only reason you think of the Chimera Ant arc as one of the "worst arcs ever in manga history" is because you don't understand its intent.

And Kurapika's ability isn't 100% in every category. While in Emperor Time, he is only 100% efficient in his abilities as a Conjurer. Meaning that since Conjurers can only learn up to 40% Emission abilities, he is only as strong as a level 4 Emitter. Though a rookie, Kurapika is nowhere near the best users of Nen because he doesn't have the control yet. He could defeat Uvogin because his ability literally only works on 13 people in the entire world.

[Phantron]

I assume the Queen was supposed to be some kind of mutation. The biggest problem with Ant arc is more of the worldview, i.e. how did humanity ever survived in a world like this (as soon as any Ant Queen evolve/mutate to be able to consume small animals then it's pretty much over), and how did humans not blow themselves up if they got all these Rose sitting around for emergencies given a single Rose can potentially take out a nation due to its poisonous properties.

Pufu's ability is only needed for the lesser talented of Ants. Pitou learned his ability just because he thought 'an ability like this would be useful'. To Meryem, Gyo is just the same as 'look at something harder'.

For the actual Ant arc itself I think it's an attempt to reverse the general good versus evil. That is, instead of the good guys getting all the powerups and fight in the name of love/friendship, what if it was the other way around. For example in the Yupi fight, notice he was the one who powered up even though he was 10 times stronger than anyone he was fighting to begin with and he didn't need the powerup. The problem is that the result is you just can't win if your enemy has better physical ability, aura ability, tactics, and they're also fighting for what they believe in without dropping a nuclear bomb on them.

[Uriel]

And Kurapika's ability isn't 100% in every category. While in Emperor Time, he is only 100% efficient in his abilities as a Conjurer. Meaning that since Conjurers can only learn up to 40% Emission abilities, he is only as strong as a level 4 Emitter. Though a rookie, Kurapika is nowhere near the best users of Nen because he doesn't have the control yet. He could defeat Uvogin because his ability literally only works on 13 people in the entire world.

Here I must disagree. Levels and percentages are not the same. There is no level cap, since everyone can train its ass off to make pretty complex techniques: Let's say a level one conjurer can make a dust in the water and level 10 conjurer is able to give the materialized thing a good effect without pledge. Percentages are how those levels works in different people. IF you are level 10 conjurer you will be also level 10 emission, but that Emission will work as level 4 natural Emission user instead of the level 10 natural Emission user.

What Kurapika can do is to delete that percentage cap and be able to train it as naturally. It's not a level up, it's a removal of the restriction.
It's somewhat kinda broken, but if we assume that He's from a tribe of strong people and saw all the ones who loved killed and left him as the sole survivor of that tribe...I would say that the main requisite of being a Specialization user has been fulfilled.

[Foreva]

In other words I can't criticize a manga until it's finished because you never know, author might try to patch some holes up or give an explanation at the end, is that it? To me it doesn't matter whether some scientists experimented with ants and created such monsters or they've come from space. They way they were introduced and the rate of their growth was just ridiculous. It was poorly written by Togashi (in this case term "asspull" would fit) and this arc made me think that even the most ridiculous thing is possible in HxH. By the time new arc ends, taking into account the rate of growth of the ants another Meruem should appear. And in the first place how come there are no more queens/Meruems coming from the sea? They didn't just appear out of nowhere, either they were created by scientists (in that case they should be able to create more and with their level of bioscience they should also be able to enhance human abilities, if they could increase intelligence of the ants so much then why don't they do the same to themselves?) or came from outer space. I don't see much of an option here. Some "nen-rays" made the ants grow? Do you really think Togashi can come up with a convincing explanation for them?

Yes. Deal with it, and stop your ridiculous speculation-based bashing.

[zelllogan]

I can conclude if you want. So in two pages, Goral and me received:
- ridiculous speculation-based bashing
- annoying naging
- just "ridiculous"
- weak assumptions
- some irony for IamJacky
- ...

and last but not least: according Popo, I need to be explained everything with an overall condescending tone.
Goral wrote two posts & me two posts about the ant arc and according you posts, it's like we sent insults to togashi without arguments for weeks ...

So, I think it's after all well needed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagging
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashing_%28pejorative%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridiculous

And most importantly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

[Popo]

Here I must disagree. Levels and percentages are not the same. There is no level cap, since everyone can train its ass off to make pretty complex techniques: Let's say a level one conjurer can make a dust in the water and level 10 conjurer is able to give the materialized thing a good effect without pledge. Percentages are how those levels works in different people. IF you are level 10 conjurer you will be also level 10 emission, but that Emission will work as level 4 natural Emission user instead of the level 10 natural Emission user.

What Kurapika can do is to delete that percentage cap and be able to train it as naturally. It's not a level up, it's a removal of the restriction.
It's somewhat kinda broken, but if we assume that He's from a tribe of strong people and saw all the ones who loved killed and left him as the sole survivor of that tribe...I would say that the main requisite of being a Specialization user has been fulfilled.

Sorry, I meant it in this sense. When I used terms like "Conjurer" and "Emitter," I meant people who are naturally these types. The thing is that Kurapika can't delete that percentage cap. "Absolute Mastery" only refers to mastering his abilities as a Conjurer and not a general practitioner of Nen. It's as high as he can go.

I can conclude if you want. So in two pages, Goral and me received:
- ridiculous speculation-based bashing
- annoying naging
- just "ridiculous"
- weak assumptions
- some irony for IamJacky
- ...

and last but not least: according Popo, I need to be explained everything with an overall condescending tone.
Goral wrote two posts & me two posts about the ant arc and according you posts, it's like we sent insults to togashi without arguments for weeks ...

So, I think it's after all well needed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagging
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashing_%28pejorative%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridiculous

And most importantly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

You're right. I was out of line and I'm sorry. Next time, I will be more considerate and tactful. I didn't intend to be condescending--I just feel like the intent of the Chimera Ant arc is largely misunderstood.

[Phantron]

The frequent hiatus during the Ant arc presumably reflects the difficulty of having everything make sense even for Togashi. In the end I think the topic was too ambitious even for Togashi, though the ending was at least satisfactory. Whatever the point of the Ant arc was, the story got a bit out of hand in terms of character power and feasability. I don't think you can say the Ant arc is some kind of masterpiece given even the author had a hard time finishing it as indicated by the prolonged hiatuses. How satisfactory was the ending of the Ant arc is a matter of personal taste, but it's definitely not like the rest of the HXH arcs where everything is going according to the author's plan. At some point in the Ant arc things definitely were not going according to the plan. Whether that's for better or worse is a matter of personal opinion.

[ashher]

The frequent hiatus during the Ant arc presumably reflects the difficulty of having everything make sense even for Togashi. In the end I think the topic was too ambitious even for Togashi, though the ending was at least satisfactory. Whatever the point of the Ant arc was, the story got a bit out of hand in terms of character power and feasability. I don't think you can say the Ant arc is some kind of masterpiece given even the author had a hard time finishing it as indicated by the prolonged hiatuses. How satisfactory was the ending of the Ant arc is a matter of personal taste, but it's definitely not like the rest of the HXH arcs where everything is going according to the author's plan. At some point in the Ant arc things definitely were not going according to the plan. Whether that's for better or worse is a matter of personal opinion.

first i must say i didn't read the whole conversation.

Second, i do not think what you said about togashi finding it hard to 'make everything make sense' is a total impossibilty, but i do find it unlikely. (A lot of reasons regarding his absence has come out in the net...ill health, his lack of interest in manga, his child etc etc which all seem pretty plausible)

Third, i'm no big fan of ant arc, in fact i dropped HxH for quite a long time during that arc. However i don't think the arc is nearly as bad as its made to sound. I mainly dropped it because of the fights being too long and plot points taking a lot of time to resolve (which was made to feel even longer due to those hiatuses)...but when i read all of it later at one go...it didn't feel like Togashi was taking time for nothing. He wasn't 'dragging on' ...ants were too good to be handled in short time. It was because of his taking time with details and elaborate plans is the reason why humans defeating ants didn't seem impossible at all.

On the hindsight, it was a brilliant ploy from Togashi sensei to make the antagonists something other than humans there, cause he was going to hand out to them some incredible powers which clearly breaks the previously established rules of his world. And he found an ingenious loop hole in his own rules, and that was that all those rules were made for humans of HxHverse. So by introducing a different species he basically made all those rules invalid and created an open space to go wild with his imaginations. And even then he managed to create the most complicated battles, and a very good finish to all plot-lines(those that he intended to finish in that particular arc). I just don't think it would've been possible to accomplish just by 'winging it'. He clearly had a preplanned outline he wanted to go with. This is why i said earlier that its unlikely that Togashi was taking those brakes cause he was finding it hard to write.

Also the ant arc was quite brilliant from the perspective of characterization. Togashi has a knack of treating his characters more like pieces of a puzzle(killua's family interrelationship diagram comes to mind...what sort of characterization is that?). But in ant arc, he wrote his characters with more heart than he usually does...The king, Palm and The blind girl were all very well written, much better written than most other characters.

About the source of the ants, i don't know whether Togashi is gonna explore it further...but as things stand now, i don't find it anything too hard to believe. It was a freak mutation,something like that has a very very minimal chance of happening...but freak mutations are no new plot element to use today's comics/lit. So the other queen ants don't matter at all, cause something like that happening again has even less chance. But if Togashi feels like incorporating this detached event with something bigger, he might as well make it an experiment from some other guy...which isn't something hard to do. My point is he can take either way, leave it at the current position or expand it somehow, and neither of the ways can be criticized really.

---------- Post added at 06:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

Togashi has been always consistent with that and it's why Kishimoto and Kubo have a lower quality manga: The rules are constantly changing making the world unstable and hard to follow or predict (Which sometimes is good and sometimes kills all the fun)

I know its offtopic, and i can't really talk about kubo...but as a naruto fan , i can't help but make my disagreement known. Togashi is a brilliant plot writer, better than kishimoto...yes, but its not that kishimoto is too inconsistent. Naruto sort of makes the questioning and source of its own rules a matter of its plot(source of ninjutsu)...which is why the apparent statements don't seem the same when delved further into it. If someone in other universe wrote a story about our world...and included all the theories about the origin of our universe and creation...it'd would have changing 'diegetic' too