U-17 Camp & OB's

[Kaoz]

After doing some research (i.e. reading their biography pages on FET), it seems that Fuji and Inui were both confirmed as regulars in their 2nd year. What I find strange is that neither as listed as having played in the previous year's Nationals though.

[LetalHawk]

This may be noobish but what is an OB?

Old boys

[Surprise]

This may be noobish but what is an OB?

People who played for a team in years past. Rikkai brought theirs back in a chapter fo the manga to show how beastly their team is by wrecking all their old players

[LetalHawk]

Hyotei should haven an OB around the camp somewhere

[Airgrimes]

After doing some research (i.e. reading their biography pages on FET), it seems that Fuji and Inui were both confirmed as regulars in their 2nd year. What I find strange is that neither as listed as having played in the previous year's Nationals though.

There we are.

Hyotei should haven an OB around the camp somewhere

Definetely.
Also, Tezuka was Vice-Captain in his 2nd year. WHO was Captain instead of him?

---------- Post added at 03:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

Also, Oishi lost to Yamabuki's Jimmies pair with a Senpai.
If there are 8-9 regulars, and Fuji, Tezuka, Inui, Oishi, Kikumaru are regulars, it leaves a possible 3-4 people left.
Also, the captain seems to play Singles since he was defeated by Atobe, so it leaves a possible 2-3 OBs.

I was expecting Konomi to reveal all these guys. Like the Captain of Rikkai during Yukimura and Sanada's freshman year, and I imagine that since Yamato could improve so greatly, then what about the Hyotei OB with Silver and red hair from the OVA.
The anime guys gave the captain of Hyotei during Atobe's freshman a VERY distinct look. Although its just an OVA, surely Hyotei should have some 2nd Year High School OB's.

---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------

Also, last year, Rokkaku reached the Regional Semis. They sucked this year.
Im guessing they had a decent OB who is in his 1st Year of High School and Konomi should at least have him in this Camp.

[FrostyMouse]

For the last time, the anime is not canon. Konomi can take something from a movie and make it canon, but without Konomi recognizing it, it's not canon.

Anyway, why does it matter to you if there are OBs (probably the most idiotic term in sports manga) around? Most of them sucked. If you look at the current HSers in the camp, the vast majority of them really suck. We can say that there are roughly 32 good HSers, counting the top 20, the missing 1st stringer, Court 3, Oni, Kazuya, and the Right Rounder. I know that you want the Camp arc to be extended as long as possible, but it's not going to happen. Fodder like Ibu and Kamio aren't going to get to play. Akaya appears to have surpassed the lowest demon in Renji.

The current generation of MSers is supposed to be a once in ten years gathering of talent, which you can see means that the majority of the players who came before them in recent years couldn't compare. Now, with more experience under their belts, the HSers have obviously improved. The top 20, for example, could all have gone to different schools. Sure, we could get an explanation of the one or two first year HSers in the top 10, but that'll probably come when we see them play. The current third year HSers most likely don't know any of the MSers, unless there was a personal connection, such as with Renji and Akuto. If you think about it, when the current third year MSers started MS, the current third year HSers were starting HS, so they don't know each other.

The Rikkai OBs completely suck. Akaya crushed them.

Yamato was injured when Tezuka played him during Tezuka's freshman year, so Yamato might not have sucked at all then, he was just injured, so he couldn't bring out his full potential, or at least most of it. I mean, after Tezuka's arm injury, he can't use Hyakuren until after the Kyuushuu healing arc, when his arm finally fully heals.

Why did you expect Konomi to make all of the top 20 OBs that the MSers would know? I mean, Hara/Taira are currently the only ones who are OBs. Renji and Akuto just have a personal connection.

Rokkaku still made it to the Nationals...Sure, they lost to Higa in the first round, but they still made it there. They lost to Seigaku (the only undefeated team in the entire series) in the Kantou SFs. That's not bad at all.

[LetalHawk]

And there's one last connection you forgot, Ryoga and Ryoma (we all know it's him, Konomi can't just put another character there, everybody would be very upset and angry if it's not him).

[FrostyMouse]

And there's one last connection you forgot, Ryoga and Ryoma (we all know it's him, Konomi can't just put another character there, everybody would be very upset and angry if it's not him).

That was the first thing I mentioned in my post.

Technically, it doesn't have to be him. I'd actually prefer if it weren't him. I wouldn't care if it were him anyway. This is the reason that a lot of us have simply referred to the character as No. 4. It may be Ryoga, it may not, but we don't know.

[Airgrimes]

For the last time, the anime is not canon. Konomi can take something from a movie and make it canon, but without Konomi recognizing it, it's not canon.

Anyway, why does it matter to you if there are OBs (probably the most idiotic term in sports manga) around? Most of them sucked. If you look at the current HSers in the camp, the vast majority of them really suck. We can say that there are roughly 32 good HSers, counting the top 20, the missing 1st stringer, Court 3, Oni, Kazuya, and the Right Rounder. I know that you want the Camp arc to be extended as long as possible, but it's not going to happen. Fodder like Ibu and Kamio aren't going to get to play. Akaya appears to have surpassed the lowest demon in Renji.

The current generation of MSers is supposed to be a once in ten years gathering of talent, which you can see means that the majority of the players who came before them in recent years couldn't compare. Now, with more experience under their belts, the HSers have obviously improved. The top 20, for example, could all have gone to different schools. Sure, we could get an explanation of the one or two first year HSers in the top 10, but that'll probably come when we see them play. The current third year HSers most likely don't know any of the MSers, unless there was a personal connection, such as with Renji and Akuto. If you think about it, when the current third year MSers started MS, the current third year HSers were starting HS, so they don't know each other.

The Rikkai OBs completely suck. Akaya crushed them.

Yamato was injured when Tezuka played him during Tezuka's freshman year, so Yamato might not have sucked at all then, he was just injured, so he couldn't bring out his full potential, or at least most of it. I mean, after Tezuka's arm injury, he can't use Hyakuren until after the Kyuushuu healing arc, when his arm finally fully heals.

Why did you expect Konomi to make all of the top 20 OBs that the MSers would know? I mean, Hara/Taira are currently the only ones who are OBs. Renji and Akuto just have a personal connection.

Rokkaku still made it to the Nationals...Sure, they lost to Higa in the first round, but they still made it there. They lost to Seigaku (the only undefeated team in the entire series) in the Kantou SFs. That's not bad at all.

I expected Konomi to fill in missing characters. I did not expect the 1st Stringers to ALL be OB's and also, it makes perfect sense if they were since how do you explain Makinfouji sucking this year but being finalists last year etc.
Surely if they are among the best in the country it makes perfect sense they would know them. Same way how everybody knew Fuji, Tezuka, Shiraishi, 3 demons, Kite, 2 wings etc.

---------- Post added at 07:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 AM ----------

That was the first thing I mentioned in my post.

Technically, it doesn't have to be him. I'd actually prefer if it weren't him. I wouldn't care if it were him anyway. This is the reason that a lot of us have simply referred to the character as No. 4. It may be Ryoga, it may not, but we don't know.

It should be him. Konomi even drew his necklace, and added in his love of oranges. AND that he was abroad.

[FrostyMouse]

I expected Konomi to fill in missing characters. I did not expect the 1st Stringers to ALL be OB's and also, it makes perfect sense if they were since how do you explain Makinfouji sucking this year but being finalists last year etc.
Surely if they are among the best in the country it makes perfect sense they would know them. Same way how everybody knew Fuji, Tezuka, Shiraishi, 3 demons, Kite, 2 wings etc.

Originally, we were going to get to see Shishigaku and Chitose was going to remain there, but then because of the overwhelming popularity of Hyoutei, which caused Konomi to bring Hyoutei back for a second match, Chitose ended up getting moved to Shitenhouji. Without the return of Hyoutei, we might have gotten to see more of Makinofuji, but it was said that the Shitenhouji team that lost 3-0 to Rikkai in the SFs put up a much better performance than Makinofuji did. That in of and itself is enough evidence that there were no good Shitenhouji OBs.

There were only a small number of good players even during PoT.

If there is no other school in your region that had any talent, you can easily make it to Nationals. Now, depending on how your seeding is, you could technically advance a few rounds in the Nationals without beating any good schools. If everyone was weak, other than Shitenhouji and Rikkai, the previous year, having some okay players may have been enough to make it to the Finals with.

You can have decent, and even 1-2 great, players (such as Seigaku), but if the rest of your team sucks, your team fails. Look at Yamabuki. Their strategy of winning two doubles and one singles was problematic because there was no wiggle room. Once they acquired Akutsu, they could win two doubles and either singles, or one doubles and both singles.

Look at Seigaku. Seigaku had a quality team, but if you take away one of them, the whole team probably falls. Without Echizen, Seigaku still would've been good, but they probably would've lost early on. Taka may have lost to Hiyoshi in Kantou, and unless Seigaku got the Hyoutei treatment, Seigaku would've been out.

It should be him. Konomi even drew his necklace, and added in his love of oranges. AND that he was abroad.

Ever heard of a red herring?

[Airgrimes]

Originally, we were going to get to see Shishigaku and Chitose was going to remain there, but then because of the overwhelming popularity of Hyoutei, which caused Konomi to bring Hyoutei back for a second match, Chitose ended up getting moved to Shitenhouji. Without the return of Hyoutei, we might have gotten to see more of Makinofuji, but it was said that the Shitenhouji team that lost 3-0 to Rikkai in the SFs put up a much better performance than Makinofuji did. That in of and itself is enough evidence that there were no good Shitenhouji OBs.

I know this. Regardless of Hyotei who defeated Shishigaku, we saw Makinofuji get owned by Fudomine.
Since it is explained Shishigaku were powered by Tachibana and Chitose, all they need was a third win from a random player to get by. Fair enough.
But Makinofuji suck without any lee-way. Kadowaki got owned by Ibu. Hagi got owned like Shishido did.
If they are their best, then there needs to be an explanation as to how they got to the finals.
Im not saying there has to be LOADS of OB's. but at least a few more.

There were only a small number of good players even during PoT.

Really?

2 super rookies, 3 demons, Tezuka, Fuji, Shiraishi, 2 wings, Akutsu, Atobe, Yushi, it depends on what you class as good. Since Niou, Yagyuu, Hirakoba, Kirihara Momo, Kaido, Inui were good too. There were a lot of good players in PoT.

If there is no other school in your region that had any talent, you can easily make it to Nationals. Now, depending on how your seeding is, you could technically advance a few rounds in the Nationals without beating any good schools. If everyone was weak, other than Shitenhouji and Rikkai, the previous year, having some okay players may have been enough to make it to the Finals with.

Nevermind making it to the nationals, I mean the final? Hyotei, Shitenhoji were fantastic. But sure, due to plot-power you could say.
But Fudomine were good. And actually so were Higa. Higa had a good team.
Yamabuki didnt suck.
They were all stopped despite being good teams. This year, No semi-finalist sucked.
Nagoya defeated Yamabuki. The Jimmies pair even lost.


But to make it the finals? I dont think so. The other teams their were Rokkaku who defeated Seigaku in the Regional 3rd Place match,
Seigaku where according to the data book, Inui, Oishi, Kikumaru and Fuji were regulars in their 2nd year.
Hyotei, who I doubt sucked since they were Regional finalists.
Shishigaku with the 2 wings and they have mentioned there being a ''Dai-Senpai''.

What Im saying is, to be finalist, they couldnt have sucked to the point that the next year they were instantly knocked out without having at least 1-2 good OB's.

You can have decent, and even 1-2 great, players (such as Seigaku), but if the rest of your team sucks, your team fails. Look at Yamabuki. Their strategy of winning two doubles and one singles was problematic because there was no wiggle room. Once they acquired Akutsu, they could win two doubles and either singles, or one doubles and both singles.

Look at Seigaku. Seigaku had a quality team, but if you take away one of them, the whole team probably falls. Without Echizen, Seigaku still would've been good, but they probably would've lost early on. Taka may have lost to Hiyoshi in Kantou, and unless Seigaku got the Hyoutei treatment, Seigaku would've been out.

They may not be able to have won the tournament but they still could have been finalists none the less. Just excluding their Hyotei matches which were spectacularly and even.
I agree, but regardless, there needs to be a reason why Makinfuji were Finalists. Why Rokkaku beat Seigaku in a 3rd place match


Ever heard of a red herring?[/QUOTE]

Err... no... What is it?

[FrostyMouse]

I know this. Regardless of Hyotei who defeated Shishigaku, we saw Makinofuji get owned by Fudomine.
Since it is explained Shishigaku were powered by Tachibana and Chitose, all they need was a third win from a random player to get by. Fair enough.
But Makinofuji suck without any lee-way. Kadowaki got owned by Ibu. Hagi got owned like Shishido did.
If they are their best, then there needs to be an explanation as to how they got to the finals.
Im not saying there has to be LOADS of OB's. but at least a few more.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. Look at the Jimmies. They destroyed the teamwork of the OB/Oishi. When Oishi/Kikumaru play the Jimmies, you easily see that a team with better teamwork, better everything beats down on the Jimmies. The Jimmies were made to sound as if they were good, but they weren't really.

In a lot of the schools, although some players become regulars during their second year, a lot of players become regulars during their third year. Remember that Seigaku doesn't even allow first years to participate in ranking tournaments. Tezuka allowed Echizen to participate, however.

Really?

2 super rookies, 3 demons, Tezuka, Fuji, Shiraishi, 2 wings, Akutsu, Atobe, Yushi, it depends on what you class as good. Since Niou, Yagyuu, Hirakoba, Kirihara Momo, Kaido, Inui were good too. There were a lot of good players in PoT.

I was talking about in comparison to the number of players that exist across the nation, there aren't that many good players. 15-20 players isn't that many.

Nevermind making it to the nationals, I mean the final? Hyotei, Shitenhoji were fantastic. But sure, due to plot-power you could say.
But Fudomine were good. And actually so were Higa. Higa had a good team.
Yamabuki didnt suck.
They were all stopped despite being good teams. This year, No semi-finalist sucked.
Nagoya defeated Yamabuki. The Jimmies pair even lost.


But to make it the finals? I dont think so. The other teams their were Rokkaku who defeated Seigaku in the Regional 3rd Place match,
Seigaku where according to the data book, Inui, Oishi, Kikumaru and Fuji were regulars in their 2nd year.
Hyotei, who I doubt sucked since they were Regional finalists.
Shishigaku with the 2 wings and they have mentioned there being a ''Dai-Senpai''.

What Im saying is, to be finalist, they couldnt have sucked to the point that the next year they were instantly knocked out without having at least 1-2 good OB's.

This year, so many schools were good and the overall level was a once in ten years gathering of talent. A lot of the third year regulars who played last year must not have been that good.

All of the schools you named lost to Seigaku at one time or another. Hyoutei, Shitenhouji, and Higa all lost to Seigaku in the Nationals on Seigaku's way to the title. If you look at the two halves of the draw, Seigaku's half was significantly harder than Rikkai's half.

Hyoutei had that Taki guy as a regular, but that may only be because they just needed an 8th player on their roster.

Yes, it's hard to explain how Makinofuji could have made it to the final. Nationals isn't that hard to make it to, and the only real explanations I can offer is that every good team was on the other half of the draw from Makinofuji. Last year's Shitenhouji put up a significantly better fight against Rikkai than last year's Makinofuji.

We know that Shiraishi didn't play and there's no evidence that Hara played against Rikkai either. So, we've got Gin, Kenya, and probably the Comedy Duo as Shitenhouji's representatives. They're not bad players and if they'd been in Makinofuji's half, they'd have crushed Makinofuji. We were told that Makinofuji's data gathering team was dangerous, and they lost/threw the match against Yagyuu/Kaidou, but then Rikkai destroyed them for a second year in a row. That probably shows that Makinofuji wasn't any good. Perhaps they had one dominant singles player and got by by him winning and having two mediocre/decent doubles teams winning, like how Yamabuki plays. Kadowaki sucks, so obviously we couldn't see a meeting with him and an OB. If said OB either lost to Rikkai or didn't play against Rikkai, the Rikkai players wouldn't have any respect for him. In one year, without plot power, it wouldn't be possible to improve that much from sucky noob to top 10 player.

They may not be able to have won the tournament but they still could have been finalists none the less. Just excluding their Hyotei matches which were spectacularly and even.
I agree, but regardless, there needs to be a reason why Makinfuji were Finalists. Why Rokkaku beat Seigaku in a 3rd place match

Seigaku still beat Shitenhouji without Echizen. They didn't need Echizen against Higa, although he won, of course. In the Nationals, someone else could have beaten Kabaji and Tezuka could've destroyed Atobe. Basically though, the best teams have the possibility of winning any, and all, of the five matches. Seigaku, assuming that they made the Nationals, could've still made it to the Finals without Echizen, but they would've lost 3-2. In Kantou, if Seigaku has Tezuka, Seigaku beats Rikkai 3-1.

Err... no... What is it?

I'll just let you read this explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Basically, it would be making No. 4 appear to be Ryoga, in order to divert your attention from something else.

[Airgrimes]

Perhaps, but perhaps not. Look at the Jimmies. They destroyed the teamwork of the OB/Oishi. When Oishi/Kikumaru play the Jimmies, you easily see that a team with better teamwork, better everything beats down on the Jimmies. The Jimmies were made to sound as if they were good, but they weren't really.

The match was either 6-4 or 7-5 which is a fairly tight match. So I think they were good. They wre just below Golden Pair prior to Synchro. Thats pretty good.

In a lot of the schools, although some players become regulars during their second year, a lot of players become regulars during their third year. Remember that Seigaku doesn't even allow first years to participate in ranking tournaments. Tezuka allowed Echizen to participate, however.

I know this, which is why I only referenced guys who the databook shows that were regulars in their 2nd year.

I was talking about in comparison to the number of players that exist across the nation, there aren't that many good players. 15-20 players isn't that many.

We barely saw that many players across the nation lol. Think of places you see in anime like Hokkaido, Shizuoke, Nara, Gunma, Kyoto, Fukuoka etc. we saw NOTHING from those places lol.
But your totally right there.

This year, so many schools were good and the overall level was a once in ten years gathering of talent. A lot of the third year regulars who played last year must not have been that good.

Perhaps.

All of the schools you named lost to Seigaku at one time or another. Hyoutei, Shitenhouji, and Higa all lost to Seigaku in the Nationals on Seigaku's way to the title. If you look at the two halves of the draw, Seigaku's half was significantly harder than Rikkai's half.

?
Just to say, im talking about last year when there were OB's...
Seigaku lost to those teams last year when there were OB's. Yet they won this year. Surely last year at least ONE OB from those teams made a difference.

Hyoutei had that Taki guy as a regular, but that may only be because they just needed an 8th player on their roster.

Briefly. He got replaced by a much improved Shishido who slapped him 6-1. I dont think Taki even played in a tournament.

Yes, it's hard to explain how Makinofuji could have made it to the final. Nationals isn't that hard to make it to, and the only real explanations I can offer is that every good team was on the other half of the draw from Makinofuji. Last year's Shitenhouji put up a significantly better fight against Rikkai than last year's Makinofuji.

Not enough. Fudomine appeared before Shitenhouji, Seigaku appeared.
For Seigaku, Hyotei, Higa and Shitenhoji appeared.
For Rikkai, Nagoya Seitoku appeared, if Nagoy didnt, then Yamabuki would have. And imagining Akutsu stayed, perhaps a slightly different scoreline.
Thing is, a Good teams were on both sides.

We know that Shiraishi didn't play and there's no evidence that Hara played against Rikkai either. So, we've got Gin, Kenya, and probably the Comedy Duo as Shitenhouji's representatives. They're not bad players and if they'd been in Makinofuji's half, they'd have crushed Makinofuji. We were told that Makinofuji's data gathering team was dangerous, and they lost/threw the match against Yagyuu/Kaidou, but then Rikkai destroyed them for a second year in a row.

Yeah, Gin claimed he knew Yukimura's yips, so lets say Yukimura wiped Gin, Sanada wiped Kenya and Niou/Yagyuu dispatched of the Idiot Pair.
Fair enough, I can agree with you there, but Sanada and Yukimura are awesome. Same with Niou/Yagyuu.
If Niou/Yagyuu didnt play, then Marui/Jackal are also awesome and Yanagi is awesome too. So to compare awesomeness against anyone isnt too fair lol.

That probably shows that Makinofuji wasn't any good. Perhaps they had one dominant singles player and got by by him winning and having two mediocre/decent doubles teams winning, like how Yamabuki plays. Kadowaki sucks, so obviously we couldn't see a meeting with him and an OB. If said OB either lost to Rikkai or didn't play against Rikkai, the Rikkai players wouldn't have any respect for him. In one year, without plot power, it wouldn't be possible to improve that much from sucky noob to top 10 player.

It does not. your thinking of Murigaoka. They were the school which specialised in that kind of thing. Not Makinofuji who's only info was that they were last years finalist. and sucked to the max this year. Even getting wiped in the Regionals too.

Seigaku still beat Shitenhouji without Echizen. They didn't need Echizen against Higa, although he won, of course. In the Nationals, someone else could have beaten Kabaji and Tezuka could've destroyed Atobe. Basically though, the best teams have the possibility of winning any, and all, of the five matches. Seigaku, assuming that they made the Nationals, could've still made it to the Finals without Echizen, but they would've lost 3-2. In Kantou, if Seigaku has Tezuka, Seigaku beats Rikkai 3-1.

In Kantou, if Tezuka was healthy sure. What if Yukimura was healthy?
You cant be sure if Echizen would bring out TMnK can you. Thats Rikkai's win.
Marui/Jackal > Kaido/Momo.
Niou/Yagyuu > Golden Prior w/out Synchro.
Yanagi > Inui
Sanada >/< (not sure who is stronger probably Sanada) Fuji
Yukimura > Tezuka/Echizen.

If it reaches a draw, Kirihara VS Kawamura/Echizen. Meaning Echizen would be needed.

I'll just let you read this explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Basically, it would be making No. 4 appear to be Ryoga, in order to divert your attention from something else.

Thanks lol. It had better be him nonetheless. Too much detail into how the real Ryoga looks for him not to be Ryoga.

My point still stands that the teams that beat Seigaku, and 2wings ''dan senpai'', and Makinofuji need explanations.
Hopefully in the form of OB's. Since players with history are always the best matches.

---------- Post added December 05, 2011 at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was November 28, 2011 at 12:28 PM ----------

Well. Im satisfied. It was Ryoga after all.

---------- Post added December 31, 2011 at 10:05 AM ---------- Previous post was December 05, 2011 at 11:56 AM ----------

There we go. Just like I said. It makes perfect sense now.

Mouri Juzaborou in the Nationals last year wiped Oshitari Kenya in Singles 3.
In Rikkai Dai VS Shitenhouji at the Semifinals last year.

He frequently skipped practice too.

Well done Konomi, Ochi Tsukimitsu is revealed to have went to Hyotei the year before Atobe started.
I knew there had to be OB's in the storyline.

[Featherwolf]

Ochi Tsukimitsu kinda makes me think of this Hyotei guy.



He was in the manga too very short at some point. I mean he was a Hyotei Captain too. The hair is kinda the same too. Red have just been switched out with blue. But he really wasn't that awesome at that time. Or maybe he just made an extreme makeover like Yamato did?

[Airgrimes]

Ochi Tsukimitsu kinda makes me think of this Hyotei guy.



He was in the manga too very short at some point. I mean he was a Hyotei Captain too. The hair is kinda the same too. Red have just been switched out with blue. But he really wasn't that awesome at that time. Or maybe he just made an extreme makeover like Yamato did?

Nah, that guy right now would be a 2nd Year High Schooler.
Ochi Tsukimitsu captained Hyotei to the Nationals the year before Akutagawa, Shishido, Mukahi watched Atobe destroy every regular and take on Oshitari Yushi in that manga special that Konomi drew, which then later got animated.

And yeah, now that you mention it, they look frighteningly similar. Luckily Konomi is good at making random things and later having them make sense. He has the excuse that the guy that Atobe crushed was inspired by the captain the year before him to dye his hair in the same style.

It makes me laugh that Muuri skipped practice haha. Leaving the Rikkai last year OVA still 'canon' as it is yet to clash with the storylin as Muuri's excuse for not being their is that he habitually skipped practice.
I love that he felt jealous and annoyed that Rikkai's Demon 3 were stars of the team.