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I don't think we've seen him hit with everything he's had until Elephant Gatling...
at the end of every arc, Luffy puts the most conviction in his final moves (Epic Shonen Finishers)
No one said Lucci was as strong as Luffy... But you act like he wasn't even on the Radar in Part One...
Here's what I don't get...
You're not telling me why those moves wouldn't work on Hodi...
Madara Shigan would cause considerable damage
Rokugan would by pass his tank body...
And Rankyaku will rain down on him at the end...
Obviously his strongest attack o far would be elephant gatlin but that does not mean he held his punches back before. Luffy has the ability to increase his own offensive power according to the situation through his gears and haki. I would think he attacked hodi with everything he had with gear 2, then he attacked with everything he had with his hardened skin, then he attacked with everything he had with red hawk and finally he attacked with everything he had with elephant gun.
Your very post would imply lucci from before the timeskip is equal to the current luffy though. Only way to argue lucci's attacks would somehow have an effect on hodi while taking in consideration that lucci's fighting style relies entirely on strength, speed and stamina is to argue in itself that lucci from two years ago has similar strength, speed and stamina to current luffy.
I would rather question why lucci's attacks would work on hodi rather than why they wouldn't. Luffy and lucci have in common that they rely on speed, strength and stamina to win. Basically, since they are indeed melee fighters their speed, strength and stamina is what determines their overall fighting capacity (while taking into consideration that there are people who rely on other things, say someone like crocodile relies on dehydrating the enemy which is not something from which you could defend from by simply blocking). Now, taking into consideration that the offensive power of lucci and hodi is determined by their speed, strength and stamina, why would lucci's attacks work on hodi when lucci has overwhelmingly inferior strength, speed or stamina to current luffy?
As for lucci being on the map.... well, no he most definitely wasn't. Even luffy, the guy who kindly almost died beating the shit out of him was not in the map, that was flat out stated and implied a few times(why else would the man who trashed ennies lobby be called a rookie?). Lets take a few comments and events which would showcase luffy's relative strength to people of actual strength (or as you would say, people in the map):
Would someone in the map be so powerless that neither attacking nor running away is viable? A moment latter and luffy would have died without even being able to fight back and given what we saw it is quite clear mihawk is not even trying here.
Why would the man who defeated rob lucci have to fear the VAs? Why would iva, someone capable of giving kuma a trashing and making fodder out of sanji fear the VAs? Because they are that much stronger than the likes of a rookie like luffy (granted luffy did take out that giant but I would argue there are a few of them who would even give current luffy a run for his money).
As tired as he must have been, luffy was still not able to keep up nor even activate gear 2 against these guys. I would argue they were at an entirely different league from the kid.
Luffy was even said to be too young to even be at the war. Which makes sense considering that every pirate there made a point to defend luffy at some point. In reality, with the strength luffy had at that point he really had no business in the front lines of the war as the amount of people who would give him the fodder treatment is simply too numerous. Realistically speaking, with his strength he should have been among the numerous nameless pirates there, not taking on shichibukai, VAs or admirals.
In the end, lucci was strong only within the context of the story at the particular point in time he was introduced. In the context of the story now with the power levels that have been introduced and which the strawhats have achieved, he'd be outright weak.
Okay... I get what your saying... but listen to my simple retort
IMO, Luffy didn't get serious until he used Red Hawk... why... because when he IMO got serious he said "I'll end this in one shot"
Which he essentially did, because at that point Hody started vomiting steroids... He stood for another attack, but that battle was all but done...
I don't think that implies in any way luffy was not hitting with everything his normal kicks, gear 2 and hardening had to offer though. Why would luffy say hodi is built like a tank if he was holding his punches that much? It makes no sense to even use his gears if he is holding his punches. Luffy's face and expressions when attacking do not support your argument either. Hodi actually pissed luffy of with the kraken bit, I really don't see why he would not finish him as soon as possible.
Well I don't think the reason why Hodi lasted so long had anything to do with Luffy not being serious. I think it was more the type of damage that Luffy is doing to Hodi. No matter how hard you hit someone with a fist the only way you can put them down is by causing so much internal damage that they simply can not keep functioning or you hit them in the right spot and knock him out. I mean, sure Luffy has Snake shot, but... That quite literally did nothing but grab onto Hodi... For example, if I were to hit you anywhere on your body, you would probably be hurting a lot but I didn't cut you or anything so you aren't going to be bleeding out, and unless I hit you in the temple or really hard in the jaw, you aren't going to be knocked out. IMO That's the reason why Luffy couldn't finish Hodi in a more timely manner, he just isn't doing the right kind of damage.
Now Lucci on the other hand has some attacks that can poke holes in another person's body. I think that would be his only way to take down Hodi if he were really going to have a serious fight. Now I understand what kkck is saying, Lucci is in no way shape or form stronger than Luffy is right now and I don't think that Lucci would be able to put any sort of dent into a pacifista no matter how many flying shigans he did. Hodi however is in no way shape or form made of metal and if Luffy's rubber body can be damaged by Lucci's shigans then I'm fairly certain that Hodi's body would be damaged as well. And this fight being on land, Hodi isn't going to have the giant advantage in speed that he seemed to have while underwater and he will surely be strong but he isn't going to be able to basically any of the long range moves he demonstrated against Luffy. Hodi on land is restricted then to either biting Lucci or just punching him into submission.
Though I'm not able to provide any sort of evidence to support this statement, I don't think that Hodi would be able to keep up with Pre-Timeskip Luffy in 2nd gear on land, Lucci was able to do this and I think if he just stays away from Hodi shooting him with flying Shigans and some Rankyaku Hyoubis I don't think Hodi, despite his incredible ability to take damage, would be able to last very long... -shrugs- That's just my opinion though...
So what if Rouguken blast through the skin? That doesn't change anything. So what if he is a master Rokushiki user? His damage output is by faaaaaar inferior than that of Luffys. He (Luffy) commented several times that he is tough and tanks damage like crazy. But I can't remember him ever saying his skin is hard (like in the fights with PX or CP9). So I rly fail to see the logic behind ur reasoning. Correct me If im wrong.
Oh and you are also correct when you say that Luffy right now can cause more damage than Lucci could ever imagine doing, that's not something that I would attempt to deny in any way. I don't think that that really matters though, Lucci can take as long as he wants slowly picking Hodi apart, this isn't a speed game where he would need to finish off Hodi faster than Luffy can or anything like that... It wouldn't be a quick or easy fight for Lucci but I can't see Lucci losing to Hodi unless the fight takes place in or around water... Again, that's just my opinion..
^That would assume hodi is in itself incapable of responding or countering lucci's attacks at all though. Why wouldn't hodi be able to counter? I honestly cannot imagine an scenario where hodi is completely incapable of countering lucci. More so, does it make sense plotwise for the strawhats to encounter a final boss who is that weaker than the previous one? Hodi might not have had mastery over fishman karate but he was by no means a simple brawler in battle, he was in fact a trained soldier with actual battle skills. We know that at least before his transformation he was strong enough for the strawhats to think arlong would have been nothing to him (oda did say arlong would have been worth 80 million if he did not pay the marines). I honestly would not be surprised if hodi was actually a match for lucci even before his transformation.
What would he really be able to counter with though? All long range attacks (The incredible 3 he used) were projectiles made of, or attacks that manipulated, water. And since this fight is taking place on land I figure we might as well just take his long range attacks out of the equation (Though if I'm forgetting any long range attacks that he did without using water please tell me). So if you take those away from him, what's he left with? Since I can't come up with anything the only thing I could imagine him doing then is being an absolute beast in close range combat, but with Lucci being as fast as he is I just don't see him getting close enough to utilize the incredible strength that the ES gave him.
I understand that it doesn't really make sense to have a weaker character appear later in the story to act as the boss for that area, but it's not that Hodi is weaker than Lucci or anything like that. I think it all has to do really with the places that the fights are taking place in. As we all know Hodi was fighting with Luffy in the water, and I'll be the first to say that Hodi would dominate everyone that Luffy has fought if the fight took place in the water, but I just don't see Hodi being that big a threat when he's deprived of the thing that gave him such a big advantage in the first place..
Last edited by rymy0630; December 11, 2011 at 01:55 AM.
I love how water is almost always excluded from the fight in the discussion. It's not or did Jinbe/Hody have a water fountain come out of their rear whenever they used FK techniques? Ultramarine may need a huge amount of water, the rest didn't. Oda even used a chapter to show us the secret about FK, enabling the user to fight any opponent with water within them. Also it seems like Hody's skill with the trident seems to be forgotten too.
If you can take water out of the equation, let's take Luccis huge advantage of airspace away too and confine them into a square room without no way to increase the space. And as mentioned by kkck, why do people nearly always describe Hody as someone unable to fight or counter-attack, that's ridiculous and has stopped to make sense a long time ago.
Last edited by Schabrak; December 12, 2011 at 01:05 PM. Reason: nearly != everyone
Well, I haven't excluded any of Hodi's attacks... I just said none of them could hit Lucci... Imo
Last edited by rymy0630; December 13, 2011 at 09:40 PM.
In term of sheer power, Hody wins.
Unfortunately, Lucci seems to be much more analytical than his counterpart. Unless Hody's range attack can effectively catch up to Lucci on land, I would give this fight to Lucci for the vast arsenal of skills at his disposal.
On another note, I don't really think Lucci actually lost to Luffy. Oda sort of just pulled that win out of his rear.
How about all the times hodi used his water shot and arrow on land? how can we possibly discount that?
Now that I reread them though I think this'll definitely be a harder fight for Lucci to win, but still a fight that he can win. Now it's basically a long-ranged fight since Lucci would know he can't win up close. Though I think Lucci's long distance attacks are much more devastating than Hodi's. For example, Lucci's Rankyaku Gaicho can cut steel, it'd have the same effect on Hodi as Zoro's swords did. Hodi's watershot was enough to go through many mountains, but it'll be like Lucci's shigan. Lucci can accurately fire Shigan while flying through the air, so it won't be an easy shot for Hodi to make since he'd have to aim at a quick moving aerial target that is firing many attacks at him as well.
So yeah, despite the fact that this will definitely be a closer fight than I had though before, I still give this to Lucci.
And I really am sorry about missing Hodi's ability to fire quite a few of those watershots. =(