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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Now something that I don't quite understand if many of you just re-read the FI arc clearly Hodi before his hair turns white isn't a threat. However with massive amounts of E.S. it's as if attacks that would have definitely knocked him out in one hit before just pile up. There was probably a lot of external and internal damage from tanking attacks by Luffy. If he'd of kept going he would of died standing. On topic Lucci from two years ago vs Hodi before E.S. I could see a clear argument but after he took them it's a clear cut obvious win. Rob Lucci too me is close to fodder as Luffy was in the war of Marineford. RL would be taken out in one punch same as the pacifista (prior to two years time skip). Hodi who's able to withstand at least 5 to 6 more of these 3-4 he was on land (while the other 2-3) were under water (something like 10% of his normal strength to 30 (assumption). So I don't think we've truly seen how strong luffy or the crew is and in fact as we go thru the new world for the next 2 to 3 arcs at the end of one saga we'll see a true struggle but they'll have learned a lot and gotten stronger. If this was a Rob Lucci contest of vs Hodi no pills then I would agree Lucci would be the winner but I'm just not seeing it. I see none of his attacks having any effect excluding in his zoan form and even that seems like it wouldn't change much. I can see Hodi intentionally tanking a rokugan for instance and in the process grabbing Lucci and putting them both into the ocean if the fight was on land for instance. Either way whichever said you're on you can't deny Hodi's defense makes Lucci's offensive look like nothing.
Last edited by ish3; December 14, 2011 at 01:46 AM.
As far as the no pills part, I don't think hodi actually took any pills after his transformation until the last moment he fought luffy on noah. In this regard hodi's transformation did make him massively stronger. At least according to ussop (which should mean something nowadays) hodi was massively stronger than arlong without any pills whatsoever and we did kinda see his frip alone doing quite some damage to the building. Even dozun (the hammerhead shark) was shown to be quite strong when he used a lone pill to regain his strength (if he used it to regain his strength then I would assume the boost would have been larger if he had been in a better condition to begin with) he showed considerably more strength than what zoro showed in alabasta (he easily threw a building with his hammer while zoro back then seemed to have some trouble with a similar sized building). Even without the pills I would argue the new fishmen pirates would have been a decent match (no pills) to the pre time skip strawhats as they were. At least to me the arc as a whole makes far more sense if we assume the new fishman pirates were to begin with at a level comparable to the strawhats before the timeskip. That would indeed show how massively stronger each member is compared to what they were 2 years ago.
I didn't reread this thread, but as far as I remember and plz correct me if Im wrong, ur main logic is that Lucci with his swords would do the right damage on a human like body than Luffy with his fists. Basically its like comparing cuts (Rankyaku) with dents (haki imbued fists).
In case Im correct, then I do get ur reasoning and it makes perfect sense. However I believe you are either picturing Luffys fists smaller or Luccis cuts bigger than they are. Just picture a wall getting crushed by a demolition ball half of its size and compare it to be cut by a regular kitchen knife. I mean that Luffys fists even if its not the right damage, would be more effective than Luccis cuts, since there is a huge gap in size (=strength) between them.
I understand that a knife even if its small would let a human body bleed out due to several cuts and thus it would be optimal to beat a non-hard skin opponent. However Luffys fists are like getting hit by a car, which force would smash the organs without trouble. Thats the difference in strength between EN Lucci and FI Luffy. To determine that, Im still using the defence of a PX.
btw we can't go with a blood loss scenario, since it is up to the plot and Oda to make that happen. In all the fights in the entire manga, despite loosing huge amount of bloods, there was never a issue, beside on FI.
Lucci has a Rankyaku that can slice steel and nearly split a battle ship... any your saying that is comparible to a little kitten.. I don't see how you can say Hodi has a chance on someone who can rain down steel slicing attacks like that without breaking a sweat...
And most people saying Lucci would be fodder in the WB war as an argument to why can't beat Hodi... lol, not even taking in account Luffy's accumalated damage, I doubt Hody would make it past A SINGLE GIANT... lol
But I get your point tho, Cuts are different from Punches that's for sure, but as BlackHair said, the difference between junkie Hody and Lucci is too great, I don't think that he will defeat him no matter how you put it.
Last edited by Zehahaha; December 30, 2011 at 08:07 AM.
Another thing which just came to my mind, I don't know if any Hody supporter has mentioned this, Luccis tekkai might be useless, since Fishman karate bypasses the skin and external defence. So in the end Lucci might have just his speed as a defence.
- Feats shown on material things are irrelevant. As Zehahaha pointed out
- I was comparing Luccis attacks with Luffys. If you don't like kitchen knife, give him a guillotine the size of a battleship, doesn't matter, whereas Luffys fists would be still x10 his strength.
- Since Hody doesn't feel pain, except from strong blows, I don't see him standing still without counter attacking on Luccis attack. Yet again you are neglecting Hodys offensive abilities.
btw on that battlefield except maybe John, every Giant was a fodder. And I believe Hodi would indeed pass through that idiot giant who was taken down by Luffy. Do not underestimate Hodis physical strength.
Are you saying cutting steel is irrelavent... I'm pretty sure it was even a plot point for Zoro's growth... Lion's Song was one of Zoro's most powerful moves pre-timeskip... now another move which cuts steel is irrelavent...
Hodi's Body isn't made of steel, I highly doubt it's uncuttable...
And yea, they both would be fodder in the WB War... because they are at the same level...
Hodi's long range attack is dodged by Lucci's high speed, or he uses Kami-E to dodge up close... then slices Hodi in half diagonally...
I don't see why it has to be so hard to face facts that Luffy's first real fight of the TimeSkip was weaker than someone he had to go all out on pre-timeskip...
Hodi has no answer for soru
Hodi has no answer for the steel cutting Rankakyu
Hodi has no answer for Madara Shigan
Hodi has no answer for Rokugan
Hodi has no answer for Geppou
He may be able to break tekkai... that's a plus, but if he can't hit him whats the point
Lucci has an answer for the Water Arrows - Kami-E
Lucci has an answer for the brute strength - Geppou/Rankakyu Combo
Lucci has an answer for the tank properties - Rokugan/Rankakyu/Madara Shigan
Did Zoro ever used Soru ? No, but that didn't stop him from being able to react to Kaku's speed, why wouldn't Hodi be able to do that too ?
Did Zoro ever used Geppou ? No, but that didn't stop him from being able to react to it, same with Luffy. Why not Hodi ?
And yes steel is irrelevant, when you have something harder than steel (aka the metal of which Pacifistas are made) then yeah it is completely irrelevant in this world, any shitty pirate can do it nowadays.
And why he doesn't have an answer for Shigan or Rankyaku, you think he's gonna sit there and let Lucci hit him or what ?
Last edited by Zehahaha; January 05, 2012 at 03:36 PM.
All of those points you make assume that for some reason anything hodi tries against lucci will be utterly useless and everything lucci tries on hodi will work. You assume there is a difference of speed which not only cannot be reasonably proven but borderlines on the absurd. Why would lucci even have an easy time dodging the water bullets? The bullets are in fact fast and strong, we saw that much. Even luffy used haki to dodged them. Given how the attack works (hodi swinging his arm with all his strength) clearly it is not a calculated attack, the water bullets come out of hodi's hand or arm randomly. So how exactly would hodi dodged every one of them? He does not have the means to predict every one of them given that he does not have haki meaning that dodging them has to be done by seeing them and reacting accordingly as soon as he can. So really, how does lucci, who has massively inferior speed to luffy to boot, would hope to dodge all of them? It makes no sense for the most past. If it was one water bullet I could believe that he would dodge them but dodging a barrage of them seems unlikely at best. We have seen plenty of attacks which can cut steel and yet when they have come in contact with the gang they have failed to cause mortal wounds. The strawhats took plenty of steel cutting rankyaku during their fights against CP9 and not one of them was mutilated to the extent which such an attack would suggest. Not even vaguely close actually. So why in the hell would the attack be so much more effective against a freak of nature like hodi? I see no logical reason to believe lucci is so much faster than lucci either. Why would we think that? Ultimately it is obvious you like lucci and dislike hodi.
lol... now I have to be biased...
how about you actually list counters to what I listed...
and Hodi was obviously shown not to be gear 2nd speed on land...
From what Hodi has shown he has no plausible way of winning... and you all keep dismissing it as "Oh he must like Lucci and hate Hodi" wow...
Zoro fought Kaku in a closed room... this is in an open field of land... not that it would matter, Zoro's swordsmanship was at the very least even with Kaku's base speed... hell Zoro was dodging light speed paw pads before Luffy one shotted that pacifista post timeskip... so I don't even see the argument you bring there...
even if Hodi could somehow see through Soru easily enough to counter what does he do against a Geppou Rankayku combo... unless your saying his body is tougher than steel... I refuse to believe something that ludicrous with no manga backing... yea Luffy sent a steel wall packing but unless you show him tanking Luffy's gear 3rd(No Haki) then no proof of that... yea Luffy's punch broke a pacifista, but all of his attacks also sent Hodi flying or left harshly injured... but I digress, Geppou and Rankakyu should be able to do this job be
cause it can cut steel
I don't know what to say if you can counter even that logic...
And so ? I said that : Did Zoro need Soru to be able to react to Kaku's Soru ? And now you keep babbling about Zoro's swordmanship ? Heck the whole pawns thing is a thing that prove that you don't need to move at the speed of light to avoid attacks at the of speed of light, that proves my point, thanks for bringing such a nice argument.
Zoro didn't need to " react " and " see " where Kaku was moving when he used Soru, why would Hodi not be able to pull that ? How did you deem that Hodi couldn't " see " where Lucci while he uses Soru ?
With enough force you can move a steel cube, even throw it around, though that doesn't mean the cube will take damage at all. Yes I know Hodi took dmg, but your example said that a movable object will automatically take harm, which isn't true.
Last edited by Schabrak; January 11, 2012 at 08:35 AM.